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Offline odidephTopic starter

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Re: Chain of Water | Chain of Water https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42245.msg526813#msg526813
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2012, 11:43:16 am »
Well while the concept of tile-per-tile flooding is appreciated here on the forums, i personally think Zanzarino will never implement anything like that.
That's why i won't make it that way, but thanks for the proposal.

The PC version could still fit in your :water control deck by the way. You didn't say what you thought of the version that destroys random permanents instead of pillars.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 12:13:15 pm by odideph »

Offline memimemi

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Re: Chain of Water | Chain of Water https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42245.msg526815#msg526815
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2012, 11:54:43 am »
Well while the concept of tile-per-tile frlooding is appreciated here on the forums, i personally think Zanzarino will never implement anything like that.
That's why i won't make it that way, but thanks for the proposal.

The PC version could still fit in your :water control deck by the way. You didn't say what you thought of the version that destroys random permanents instead of pillars.


1) My friend once told me, while at a restaurant: "look for what you want, then look at the price."  It's good advice; make what card you think is best, then look for ways to make it workable, rather than limiting your options based on what you think another person may or may not do.  This is not, by the way, a defence of my idea vs yours or anything; just a general response to a point that I think ought not enter into consideration, this early in the design process.

2) I'm so-so on it.  For a great many decks, permanents =~= Pillars/Pends.  Perm-heavy decks already pack PA, as a rule, truncating any possible chain.  I think, in effect, destroying random perms would pretty much be equivalent to just destroying Pillars; generally, for a player to have any permanents in play at all sHe will already have Pillars out, in greater quantities, skewing the odds toward them being targeted.

Another concept, for a seldom used effect: a single-turn SoP-type effect, whether it be on your creatures, your opponent's, or global; targeting random creatures, creatures in order of creature slot, or what have you.
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Offline odidephTopic starter

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Re: Chain of Water | Chain of Water https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42245.msg527764#msg527764
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2012, 10:05:22 pm »
1) That's interesting enough to be kept in mind, even though i don't think i'll be using it in here. I realized while editing my Chain series' thread that if one would make a deck full of Chains (akin to how you could build a Shard deck?) there would be a competition between my :fire and :water ones. I'll keep it focused on permanents.

2) The fact that it would target pillars/pends most of the time would be its luck factor to me. The possibility of destroying non-pillar permanents would be the lucky part.

Overall i am still not sure what to do with this card but the destruction of permanents, with an effect increasing by only 1 per chain effect, looks the best to me so far. i already have given the effect of buffing creatures to :light and :life, which it fits more imo.

Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Chain of Water | Chain of Water https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42245.msg528008#msg528008
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2012, 07:48:40 pm »
Comparing this to earthquake for reference:
Earthquake       Chain of Water
# cost  effect    # cost  effect
1  3      3          1  5      1
2  6      6          2  10    1+2=3
3  9      9          3  15    1+2+3=6
4  12    12         4  20    1+2+3+4=10
5  15    15         5  25    1+2+3+4+5=15
6  18    18         6  30    1+2+3+4+5+6=21

Right now earthquake or trident are clearly superior... Part of the problem is that it takes 3 of these just to catch up with the number of permanents being destroyed. Because of that, it won't overtake EQ until the last card. That coupled with the much higher cost make this UP in comparison. Furthermore, if I'm reading it right, you don't even get to target which pillars get hit.
My suggestion would be to drop the cost by 1 for both unupped and upped and to have its effect start at 2 instead of 1. That way it will start being more efficient by about the 4th or 5th card, but less before then.

Another way to look at it is cost efficacy there are 2 metrics here: # destroyed / cards used or # destroyed / cost
Earthquake is a constant 3/1 and 3/3=1 . We can clearly see that the cost efficiency is deficient at all times for the old version.
EQ                               Old Chain (1 pillar start, 5 cost)     New Chain (2 pillar start, 4 cost)
#  Card_Ef  Cost_Ef       #  Card_Ef     Cost_Ef                   #  Card_Ef      Cost_Ef
1   3           1                1   1/1=1       1/5=.25                  1   2/1=2        2/4=.5
2   3           1                2   3/2=1.5    3/10=.3                  2   5/2=2.5      5/8=.625
3   3           1                3   6/3=2       6/15=.4                  3   9/3=3        9/12=.75
4   3           1                4   10/4=2.5   10/20=.5                4   14/4=3.5    14/16=.875
5   3           1                5   15/5=3      15/25=.6                5   20/5=4       20/20=1
6   3           1                6   21/6=3.5   21/30=.7                6   27/6=4.5    27/24=1.125

So the new version matches earthquake card efficiency on the 3 chain and cost efficiency on the 5th. This might still be slightly UP but now we have some metrics.
Lastly it should be noted that for pillar destruction to be most effective, it must be cast early. It does little good to destroy your opponent's pillars on the 7th or 8th round after they have already amassed quanta, but it is brutally effective to do so on the first or second before they have a reserve.
This means that the bias should be more strongly weighted to the lower side of chaining for this card to really be effective.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 08:03:31 pm by OdinVanguard »
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