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Offline odideph

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Re: Caterpillar Wand | Moth wand https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41588.msg523612#msg523612
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2012, 02:16:06 pm »
Well i can't help being worried with the fact that this gives creates a whole new field for the RNG to screw games up:
I wouldn't want my 3 (or more) Miracles/Dim Shields/Nymphs/Dials/Hourglasses/Sosacs/Moth Wands to just never get to my hand even when i'm about to deck out just because they were basically removed of future existence.

Offline thispersonisagenius

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Re: Caterpillar Wand | Moth wand https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41588.msg523613#msg523613
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2012, 02:19:21 pm »
Is it just me, or do the upped and unupped versions have everything on the card (except for shiny art and name) in common? Shouldn't the upgrade get something better? Or maybe I'm just missing something.
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Offline odideph

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Re: Caterpillar Wand | Moth wand https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41588.msg523619#msg523619
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2012, 02:55:05 pm »
Upped probably deals 6 damage according to table.

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Re: Caterpillar Wand | Moth wand https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41588.msg523626#msg523626
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2012, 03:35:27 pm »
Well i can't help being worried with the fact that this gives creates a whole new field for the RNG to screw games up:
I wouldn't want my 3 (or more) Miracles/Dim Shields/Nymphs/Dials/Hourglasses/Sosacs/Moth Wands to just never get to my hand even when i'm about to deck out just because they were basically removed of future existence.
You can say the same for decks that lose to rush decks. Milling does not do anything to remove key cards that normal shuffling doesn't unless the opponent is decked out.
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Offline AnnaMallTopic starter

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Re: Caterpillar Wand | Moth wand https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41588.msg523748#msg523748
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2012, 10:12:27 pm »
Is it just me, or do the upped and unupped versions have everything on the card (except for shiny art and name) in common? Shouldn't the upgrade get something better? Or maybe I'm just missing something.

Upped image need fixing, table is correct, need to make some time for fixing it

Quote from: odideph
Spoiler for Hidden:
Am i the only one worried about the fact that this Wand coming straight from the unholy forges of Hell actually destroys the opponent's cards?!

Let's take a step back here. I mean you have to build your deck with serious restrictions already:
-30->60 cards, no less no more.
-max 6 copies of a card.
-a certain amount of quanta-generating cards, Or free cards (generally weaker).
-little control over what you'll get in the first hand.

This Wand can majorly screw up every deck for the following reasons:
-destroys immaterial cards such as Emerald Shield or Phase Dragon
-destroys pillars, if you had a bad hand, it makes it just worse
-increases your deck-out speed by a factor of 100% for every instance of the Wand.
-incredibly brutal combo with a flown Eternity or Crusaders
-may just destroy all (up to 6) copies of a type of card (or multiple types) you desperately needed but didn't get in first hand.

Someone had to point that out... now that it's done are you sure you still find it that balanced?

I'm not against the concept itself, i'm against this installment as it is right now. Proposed fixes:
-Damage lowered to 2, so that many types of shield can entirely block it.
-Effect happening on hit instead of every turn, so that blocking the hit cancels the destruction.
-0 HP when flown was a smart idea, now make it immaterial Aswell, so that Crusaders can't merrily annihilate 1/3 of someone's deck every turn.

Some quick hypothetical calculations time. A deck with 4 wands/4 PA/6 sosac/6 dials/4 life pend/6 novae or any other stall mechanism you seem fit. It is clearly a deck that has only deckout as win condition. Opponent has a 30 card deck

Turn 1 PA/wand out (best case senario using upped life pend/nova split), from this point on you have 12 turns to deal with sosac/dials. Seems something upped decks will achieve easily, unnuped decks will be around there more or less.

More realistically using the same deck: turn 2-3 PA/wand (2 novae or pend and mark) from this point on you will have 11-12 turns to deal with sosac/dials, which is about the same as above if not a turn or 2 slower.

List of counters: basicaly whatever counters the stall mechanism (PC, purify, SoP for the above example), the wand itself PC protected is unstoppable

Take out wand and put arsenic in its place: you need 11 rounds to go through 100 HP.

List of counter: heal, stall mechanism counters (PC,purify, SoP), dim shield, diss shield, wing, tit shield (unnuped wand)

In that comparison it seems to me that wand is borderline powerful/OP in the unnuped setting, while powerfull in the upped. Some balancing issues come to mind though.
1.the wand cannot be used in a deck that is not designed to work around it, how that is weighted in balancing?
2.the bypass dmg is what makes it usefull, so an "on hit" clause seems too crippling, maybe a % chance as Rutarete suggested?
3.a point that odideph brought up, how does the destroyed cards weight in the balancing? In the example above maybe the opponent has 2 purifies not drawn, what if first 2 hits both are gone? How do you take that into the balancing account?

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Re: Caterpillar Wand | Moth wand https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41588.msg523759#msg523759
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2012, 11:02:41 pm »
In that comparison it seems to me that wand is borderline powerful/OP in the unnuped setting, while powerfull in the upped. Some balancing issues come to mind though.
1.the wand cannot be used in a deck that is not designed to work around it, how that is weighted in balancing?
2.the bypass dmg is what makes it usefull, so an "on hit" clause seems too crippling, maybe a % chance as Rutarete suggested?
3.a point that odideph brought up, how does the destroyed cards weight in the balancing? In the example above maybe the opponent has 2 purifies not drawn, what if first 2 hits both are gone? How do you take that into the balancing account?
1. It limits the synergies. This has no impact on balancing unless all available synergies are subpar.
2. I think it would be fine with an "on hit" clause.

3. Milling (destroying from the deck) 2 purifies is the same as if the shuffling RNG put the 2 purifies at the bottom of the deck. Aka no effect on balance except when exploited with Reverse Time or Mindgate.
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Offline Joseph7

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Re: Caterpillar Wand | Moth wand https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41588.msg524033#msg524033
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2012, 06:29:48 pm »
I like this card and the idea of effecting the opponent's deck cards. I don't think immaterial is necessary nor fits this card- in fact, caterpillars are very easy to kill normally. I like that you can't animate this card- it prevents too large of damage to the opponent's deck.

Offline AnnaMallTopic starter

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Re: Caterpillar Wand | Moth wand https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41588.msg524594#msg524594
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2012, 03:46:34 pm »
Fixed OP image/table mistakes. Added "on hit" clause.

Offline odideph

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Re: Caterpillar Wand | Moth wand https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41588.msg524778#msg524778
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2012, 12:43:57 am »
I like this card and the idea of effecting the opponent's deck cards. I don't think immaterial is necessary nor fits this card- in fact, caterpillars are very easy to kill normally. I like that you can't animate this card- it prevents too large of damage to the opponent's deck.
Note that you can animate it with a buff card that gives health (like  :earth's Heavy Armor, or  :light's Blessing), after which i imagine you could Adrenaline it probably. And then Parallel Universe the result. Oh god.

Offline Anarook

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Re: Caterpillar Wand | Moth wand https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41588.msg524839#msg524839
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2012, 03:45:48 am »
After my recent submission of Sabotage, I really can't find myself liking this, we need to discuss what the skill is worth because imho this card either doesn't work or needs a serious limiter.

At the very least a substantial cost increase.
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Re: Caterpillar Wand | Moth wand https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41588.msg524859#msg524859
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2012, 04:17:37 am »
After my recent submission of Sabotage, I really can't find myself liking this, we need to discuss what the skill is worth because imho this card either doesn't work or needs a serious limiter.

At the very least a substantial cost increase.
Both these ideas remind me of this :U
and this

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Re: Caterpillar Wand | Moth wand https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41588.msg527704#msg527704
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2012, 07:25:32 pm »
After my recent submission of Sabotage, I really can't find myself liking this, we need to discuss what the skill is worth because imho this card either doesn't work or needs a serious limiter.

At the very least a substantial cost increase.

Do you have a reasoning for the cost increase? More than happy to elaborate over it as I still ain't sure for its balance.

 

anything
blarg: