Balance

[THRA5H3R]

As this is my first post, I hate to make what may seem as a negative comment, but I hope that my argument comes across as reasoned and reasonable.

First off, let me say that I find myself enjoying this game more than I thought I would.  I am a big Magic fan, of course, so I am intrigued by the approach Element takes.  I also followed Magic development closely for several years, so I'm well read on game mechanics and the idea of balance in a game.  That being said, I'm still no expert, and certainly am not brave enough to put any creation of mine into the public eye!

I've seen a couple of cards in my short experience that strike me as horribly unbalanced.  Immortal is one of them.  There is also a sword that can't be stolen or destroyed, but that's really what I'm getting at.  Any card that is completely untouchable can quickly become a problem in a game, where suddenly that card becomes the only win condition because it can't be beaten.

I feel there is also a misnomer to the text "targeted."  Targeting is easily understandable, and has a certain meaning.  In this case, to specifically single out one target for a specific effect.  However, an untargetable creature or permanent should still be subject to global effects, since they don't single anything out.

So, my comment here is twofold: I feel the wording should be unequivocal when it comes to games where the text has a direct meaning to the gameplay, and no piece in a game should be completely untouchable once it is in play, even if it's only in a couple of obscure ways.

Hope I didn't come across as a whiner.  I would just like to give my input in the hopes of helping someone develop a truly interesting game.

[Uncle Jellyfish]

I've seen a couple of cards in my short experience that strike me as horribly unbalanced.  Immortal is one of them.  There is also a sword that can't be stolen or destroyed, but that's really what I'm getting at.  Any card that is completely untouchable can quickly become a problem in a game, where suddenly that card becomes the only win condition because it can't be beaten.

These cards are not unbalanced, as they usually cost a lot, and are easily worked around. If you can't target the creature, target the player. Same goes with M:tG.

Shroud
A permanent or a player with shroud cannot be the target of spells or abilities. Shroud gives no protection against non-targeted effects, however: cards that affect permanents without targeting them (such as Sudden Spoiling) affect creatures regardless of shroud. Shroud most commonly occurs in blue, green, and sometimes white cards.

I feel there is also a misnomer to the text "targeted."  Targeting is easily understandable, and has a certain meaning.  In this case, to specifically single out one target for a specific effect.  However, an untargetable creature or permanent should still be subject to global effects, since they don't single anything out.

This has been brought up before. There is no word from Zanzarino about whether or not he plans to change this. He's Italian, if I recall, and therefor english is not a first language. I know this isn't much of an excuse, but it may have an effect on the wording.

[Forfeit]

I like your arugument, I was going to post something myself about global effects not hitting untargetable things. However I think things like ROF should not affeect burrowed creatures, but should affect immaterial. If that makes any sense. And you're right, everything should have a counter, however with the size of this game that's very difficult at this stage.

P.S. On a side note, slightly related, I'm playing a firebolt deck right now, and there are two shields that make a player not able to be targeted by spells. However someone found a really cool way around that- get a shield like it yourself, and aim the spell at yourself. That's an example of the conters we should have in the game, however indirect, as both the reflecting shields are untouhcable.

P.P.S. Also, this should be in the freature request section.

[Scaredgirl]

Any card that is completely untouchable can quickly become a problem in a game, where suddenly that card becomes the only win condition because it can't be beaten.

I totally disagree. AYou need to remember is that you do not need to beat that card. All you need to do is beat the other player. It doesn't matter if the other guy has 20 immortal dragons on his table. If you kill him, you will win.

You also mentioned Morning Glory, the untargetable weapon. Even though it is untargetable, it is widely considered to get not so great. While it might sound good on paper, it kind of sucks in reality since it doesn't have any active abilities.

[Evil Hamster]

Having played immortal/untargetable focused decks for many weeks-

They are great if they get going, but so slow you can die before your untargetable cards can even make a dent.

Dimension shield used to help a lot, but with the current popularity of rainbow decks/pulverizer/other permanent control- it's not reliable enough.

Also- Poison decks will always win against an "immortal" strategy.

Remember- your immortal will still only reduce a bone wall by one and can't attack if sundial is out.

I do agree the wording is a bit misleading, but having played long enough to know the mechanics it's not a problem for me. I hope it gets updated for new players soon, though.

[Bloodshadow]

Immortal creatures are not overpowered at all. You can simply avoid their attacks using Bone Wall, Dimensional Shield and Sundial.

[ooli]

As stated you are still thinking in M:tG gameplay : here you dont need to pass the creatures to reach the opponent. So immortal creatures are not a big deal.

And top of that those creatures are "un-targetable" and that's is a cool trick , cause you cannot boost them , or intereact with them in any way. So in fact un-targetable creature balance themself out pretty well (as long they didnt have incredible attack to start with)

[THRA5H3R]

So, clearly, I don't have a grasp on all the available options when it comes to seeming insurmountable cards.  Although I would argue that this still doesn't answer the question of untargetable equipment.  The basic answer seems to be "hope you can do more damage to them before they kill you."  In any case, I guess it comes down to having the correct deck build and hoping you draw that needed card.  Not an uncommon scenario.

[Evil Hamster]

So, clearly, I don't have a grasp on all the available options when it comes to seeming insurmountable cards.  Although I would argue that this still doesn't answer the question of untargetable equipment.  The basic answer seems to be "hope you can do more damage to them before they kill you."  In any case, I guess it comes down to having the correct deck build and hoping you draw that needed card.  Not an uncommon scenario.

I think that statement is true for just about any game

But yes- the most effective decks are generally the ones where you focus on killing your opponent more than messing with his cards. Using an explosion on a weapon is more defensive than offensive- and far more useful for those weapons that have nasty special abilities anyways!

[bobcamel]

1. The mass effect cards TARGET ALL CREATURES, except for the ones that can't be.
2. Immortality on a card isn't much of a problem. I have played against 3 Elite Shriekers of some God, and he has them burrowed, and sure they were a pain in a rear place but I could heal over them.

[Demongod]

immortal/immaterial critters aren't too much of a problem so long as there's not too many of them at any one point that they can simply stomp over a bone wall.  That said, you need to field Aether to get access to this status.  In rainbow decks, the only cheap way to get this is through Anubis, who costs a massive amount of time mana (8!), and considering that time is possibly the most heavily-used quantum in a rainbow deck, this will not work out so well.

That stated, I would like it if things like firestorm and other globals affected them.

[Spamalot]

immortal/immaterial critters aren't too much of a problem so long as there's not too many of them at any one point that they can simply stomp over a bone wall.  That said, you need to field Aether to get access to this status.  In rainbow decks, the only cheap way to get this is through Anubis, who costs a massive amount of time mana (8!), and considering that time is possibly the most heavily-used quantum in a rainbow deck, this will not work out so well.

That stated, I would like it if things like firestorm and other globals affected them.

I use ScaredGirl's anti-Seism Rainbow deck modified with an Anubis, Pulverizer, and Eternity...I -always- make room for Anubis, if I draw him early.  Forfeiting 8 extra draws is totally worth it, because every creature in that deck counts, and if one goes down, the entire deck tends to crumple.  Usually this only means going 1 round without extra draws.  Additionally, Anubis is usually the -best- creature to put out first, because with 8 life, he can survive a single lightning or 2 Fire Storms, and he'll be invincible the next round, so being down -6 health isn't a big deal.

If you get Anubis out early, just stop drawing from Hourglasses, because the force-multiplication effect you get from an immortalized Fallen Druid and his immortalized mutants is enormous.  I mean, a 0/1 Chrysaora with destroy would very quickly be pwned by your opponent, but if your Anubis is on the table, you probably just won the match, because the only thing that can stop what was formerly a 0/1 piece of garbage is Enchant Artifact.