A few concepts

[Evil Hamster]

Um...

Fallen Druid?

[jmizzle7]

Who said the upgraded version should produce giant frogs? it could just cost 1-2 less quanta, like firestorm.

That was your counter-argument to everything I said?

Well.. if it didn't produce Giant Frogs, then it would be the first upgraded card that produces non-upgraded creatures.

...which is fine and way more balanced than making three 5/3 guys. Chill out SG, we're both trying to figure out how to balance the card. I tend to take a more conservative approach to card analysis, while you take the ready-fire-aim approach. It's really not my problem if you like my ideas or not.

[Scaredgirl]

Um...

Fallen Druid?

Well.. yes and no. Although Fallen Druid produces a non-upgraded creature, it is using an upgraded improved mutation ability (same as the card). It's not using the non-upgraded ability with lower cost.

And this situation is different. We are summoning a new creature. These are cards that do that:

Deja Vu
Fate Egg
FFQ
Boneyard
(that's it.. I think)

All these upgraded cards summon elite creatures. And that's what Frog's Breeding should also do, otherwise it doesn't make sense imo.

...which is fine and way more balanced than making three 5/3 guys. Chill out SG, we're both trying to figure out how to balance the card. I tend to take a more conservative approach to card analysis, while you take the ready-fire-aim approach. It's really not my problem if you like my ideas or not.

Easiest way to solve this problem would be to change the creature from Frog to something else.

Because of Feral Bond, life is actually the worst choice for this kind of card. Why not use Skeleton? It's currently useless and buffing it up so that it would create 1-2 Skeletons would be great. Although you would need to increase the cost a bit.

[Sigh]

Because Skeleton is quite possibly the only creature (besides dragons) that only deals direct damage and doesn't have an effect, yet pop up in just about any deck regardless of how it was summoned. The OP himself said that he wanted to have this card so that he could veer away from Skeles and give some love to the less used "small" creatures.

Also most of those argumens you listed are entirely situational. What are the odds that someone's going to have so many of this spell as to get so many of these frogs in one turn? Granted, I agree that the amount of frogs should be bumped, but that still doesn't explain your logic. (To me at least)

Here's one of the OP's posts further up the page: (Important parts are bolded)

Actually, i make this Life card since one of my friend complain to me that Life is too weak on its own. (He chooses Life as the first mark)

One of the other reason to create this card is that, i think it is good to see more basic cards are invovled in the game, not just the skeleton...= . =

I think it helps mono-Life or those which uses Life as the major element.

Actually, a new deck type are developed when a new potential 'brokeable' card is appearing.

From the deck SG made, i think it is how rainbow, speed-posion or mono-aether against it.

(Then he talks about possible decks to use with this card which do not rely on the unlikely circumstance that you get 3 of the freakin spells in play at once...  )

[Scaredgirl]

Because Skeleton is quite possibly the only creature (besides dragons) that only deals direct damage and doesn't have an effect, yet pop up in just about any deck regardless of how it was summoned. The OP himself said that he wanted to have this card so that he could veer away from Skeles and give some love to the less used "small" creatures.

Also most of those argumens you listed are entirely situational. What are the odds that someone's going to have so many of this spell as to get so many of these frogs in one turn? Granted, I agree that the amount of frogs should be bumped, but that still doesn't explain your logic. (To me at least)

Here's one of the OP's posts further up the page: (Important parts are bolded)

1. I have no idea what you are saying in that first paragraph but I will say you this, I have NEVER seen anyone use the card Skeleton or Elite Skeleton. Why? Because it's the most useless card in this game. Giant Frog is not useless. That's why IF this card was made, Skeleton would be a better choice imo. It wouldn't be so powerful and there wouldn't be that insane synergy with Feral Bond.

2. You clearly don't even know what the word "situational" means so I will skip that.

3. After all those previous posts, if you still don't understand what I am saying, you never will.

4. I don't care what OP thinks and neither should anyone else. He has his visions, and we have ours. We should discuss all card ideas objectively and not to be afraid of to think outside the box. That is the only way to do creative work.

[Sigh]

1. UGH! I said "no matter how it was summoned." Did you not even think of Graveyard? I said that we all wanted to veer away from Skeles.

2. Situation- Relative position or combination of circumstances at a particular moment.

3. Which paragraph are you referring to for #3? You didn't exactly make that clear. Then again you never make ANYTHING you ever say clear due to your infallible ability to "talk for hours without saying a thing."

4. I wasn't making it seem that the OP's....well... OP was law, I was just saying that those were some of the reasons for my posts. Also, since you want people to be so honest, you honestly sound like my mother when you say to think outside the box.

[Terroking]

I don't care what OP thinks and neither should anyone else

then why are you even posting?

And this situation is different. We are summoning a new creature. These are cards that do that:

Deja Vu
Fate Egg
FFQ
Boneyard
(that's it.. I think)

fate egg just changes the current creature, in the same way as druid.

Because of Feral Bond, life is actually the worst choice for this kind of card. Why not use Skeleton? It's currently useless and buffing it up so that it would create 1-2 Skeletons would be great. Although you would need to increase the cost a bit.

with nightfall skeles are 4/3, but without it they are only 2/2, but its a possibly infinite amount of them, and they take out more bone wall, and bone yard only costs 5 death.

the one less hp isn't much of a difference (unless there is thunderstorm or plauge, which there usually never is)

you can't say its OP because you cannot stop it, you can't stop someone with 300 fire quanta from using a lance on you can you? (assuming they have mirror shield, which most lance decks do). you also cannot stop a creature summon in the same way, if someone put out a phase recluse you take 7 damage, (unless you have bone wall) and that only costs 4 quanta each. if you have 2 hp left and both diss and sundial up to stop shields and momentum,  if the opponent uses poison you will die even if you have 6 purifys.

[smallfishnova]

Firefly Queen does not create 3 creatures instantly. It needs time and quantum to make those Fireflies. There are many ways of shutting down a Firefly Queen. Frog's Breeding cannot be stopped. There will instantly be 3 creatures.

Graveyard itself doesn't produce anything. Something has to die in order for those Skeletons to appear. Graveyard is situational, Frog's Breeding is not. Also Skeletons have a low attack and HP.

Just imagine an upgraded version of Frog's Breeding. With 6-8 quantum it would summon creatures that do instantly a total of 15 damage (and take down 3 bone walls)! Nothing in elements comes even close to that. Now imagine if you stall and play 3 Frog's Breeding's at the same time. That would mean 9 creatures doing 45 damage each turn with a cost of only about 21 quantum. Three cards that would instantly take half of your opponents health? Do I really need to go on?

First to claim, I haven't thought about the upgraded version of this card.
If the upgraded version of this card need to be produce upgraded frogs in order to be logical... I would at least increase this spell mana cost to 9 or 10.
For the 3 cards, 45 damages 'combo'. It already existed in game (2TU + 1 Ruby Dragon = 12 fire + 12 aether). Though, it needs 2 elements to work. Well, what SG worries about that i think it is similar to the history of the Phase Dragon (PU and dragon in the same element).

Actually, I still think mono-aether is the best mono-deck due to the Dimension Shield.
For mono-element deck to fight the mono-Life deck.

So, let's see.
Life Pillar x 14
Empathic Bond x 4
Frog's Breeding x 6
Druidic Staff x 2
Emerald Dragon x 4

I will just think about how each mono-element deck to counter it.
Mono-Entropy: Discord to disturb mana. Use Demon to eat dragon. Shield to defense.  Chaos Seed randomness and how many Breeding and Bond the Life player draws will be most important.
Mono-Death: Plauge, Bonewall, Graveyard. It depends on the Death player is focus on posion or creature control then. Dragon would be key here.
Mono-Gravity: Otyugh is sad here but upgraded version if great here. Gravtion Pull's Kill Dragon and upgraded Otyugh eat out the frog to make Bond useless. Armaigo absorb damages. It depends on Otyugh is upgraded or not.
Mono-Earth: Earthquake to denial mana production. Titanium Shield make the frog nearly useless. Depends on Earth Player draw how many creature or Life Player draw how many bonds.
Mono-Fire: Firestorm + Deflagration + Fireshield + Firebolt. Life player auto-loss unless the Fire player bads draw and you get a good draw.
Mono-Water: Ice shield would be key here. Ice bolt also be a key factor here. Aratic Squid is also a interesting factor in this game. 1 squid stops 3 frogs.
Mono-Light: Very favorable for the Life Player. I think it is a boring match if the Light player have 4-6 miracle....
Mono-Darkness: Steal the bond or staff or even pillar in the beginning. Minor Vampire helps you back. Devour to stop mana production. Dusk Mantle stops many damage. Favorable for Darkness Player.
Mono-Aether: Depend on the Life Player Draws is good or not. Win when have more bonds.
Mono-Time: Depends on Fate egg randomness and when the Time player setup a Eternity. Chain Reverse Time on Frog and attack to win.
Mono-Air: Fog shield randomness affect here. Owl's eye kill 1 frog per turn (and cut healing amount). An exciting and quick match-up i think.

The problem of mono-Life deck is losing increasing attacking power over time, those quantum acculmated it of no use and also creature dependent (afraid of creature control). Also, it never draws card which makes it very inconsistant. No breeding, no wins. No Bonds, a quick win or quick death.

[Scaredgirl]

I don't care what OP thinks and neither should anyone else

then why are you even posting?

Because this thread is about card ideas, not OP. You think Zanzarino (if he looks at these ideas) will care about OP's feelings?

fate egg just changes the current creature, in the same way as druid.

No. Upgraded Fate Egg produces an upgraded creature. Fallen Elf and Druid use mutation which always produces non-upgraded creatures no matter who you use it on.

with nightfall skeles are 4/3, but without it they are only 2/2, but its a possibly infinite amount of them, and they take out more bone wall, and bone yard only costs 5 death.

So in your mind Bone Yard + creatures dying + Nightfall, is the same as using one card to instantly produce three 5/3 Creatures?

Please, don't post on this thread again. Thank you.

you can't say its OP because you cannot stop it

I think a lot of people don't understand what overpowered means.

Overpowered does not mean invincible. There are ways to counter a card that produces 3 creatures, but that is not how you determine if a card is overpowered or not. If a 1 quantum cost card produces a 1000/1000 creature, it can be countered with Phase Shield or Mutation, but that does not make it balanced.

When we determine whether a card is overpowered or not, we have to compare it to other cards available. If Frog's Breeding was in the game, why would anyone use Giant Frogs anymore? There would be no point in taking three cards when we you could take one card that does exactly the same thing, and you can also take two extra towers.

Actually, I still think mono-aether is the best mono-deck due to the Dimension Shield.
For mono-element deck to fight the mono-Life deck.

So, let's see.
Life Pillar x 14
Empathic Bond x 4
Frog's Breeding x 6
Druidic Staff x 2
Emerald Dragon x 4

I would do something like this:

Life Pillar x 12
Feral Bond x 6
Frog's Breeding x 6
Giant Frog x 4
Druidic Staff x 1
Emerald Shield x 1

This 30 card deck would produce 22 creatures with 5/3. For defense it would have 6 x Feral Bond, Druidic Staff and indestructible shield. No mono-deck out there could deal with that.

Mono-aether couldn't do anything because it have very little creature control and lacks permanent destruction. After it runs out of Phase Shields, those frogs would run over it. The damage it does is easy to heal with 6 x Feral Bonds and 22 creatures.

Mono-fire would probably have the best chance but would still be easy to beat because it has no healing. Fire couldn't afford to pay for both Dragons and Firestorms, and Frogs would just slowly eat it. Think about it like this: even if somehow all those 22 frogs would always die as soon as you play them (impossible), they would STILL do 110 damage and heal you insane amounts.

When you describe those situation against other mono-decks, you make one mistake. You assume that the other player has already played all his key cards and life player for some reason hasn't done anything. That's not how it works.

[smallfishnova]

Ok. First, i agree to change this card to cast 8-9 mana or summon 2 horned frog instead.

While it is strong, it still has counter. Lock draw by Eternity, stall and let it deck out by sundial or dimension shield or firestorm which most deck already has a few against it.

I used to be a Mtg player. While Wotc will only ban cards which every deck packs or every decks need to pack cards to play against it. And usually when a new card in a new set is spoiled, many said it is OP... But that usually not the case...

Though, i think a real game-play test will make it clear.

[Fury of the Tempest]

Ummm.... Just a small surgestion here... but instead of Frog Breeding just summoning three Frogs... why not make it summon three Frogs straight from the players hand or deck.

This means that the player must have three Frogs in their deck to be able to use Frog Breeding. This may seem to be underpowered as you'll need four cards to summon three creatures. However, it will increase the chance/speed of getting the Frog's onto the Battlefeild...

Prehaps it could be modified so you can summon three frogs, with normal satistics or two frogs, with the total satistics of three... And maybe the option to get a super frog or something.... If you don't like the last idea, ignore it

[Terroking]

Quote from: Terroking on October 29, 2009, 09:28:21 pm
Quote
I don't care what OP thinks and neither should anyone else
then why are you even posting?

Because this thread is about card ideas, not OP. You think Zanzarino (he if looks at these ideas) will care about OP's feelings?

Quote from: Terroking on October 29, 2009, 09:28:21 pm
fate egg just changes the current creature, in the same way as druid.

No. Upgraded Fate Egg produces an upgraded creature. Fallen Elf and Druid use mutation which always produces non-upgraded creatures no matter who you use it on.

Quote from: Terroking on October 29, 2009, 09:28:21 pm
with nightfall skeles are 4/3, but without it they are only 2/2, but its a possibly infinite amount of them, and they take out more bone wall, and bone yard only costs 5 death.

So in your mind Bone Yard + creatures dying + Nightfall, is the same as using one card to instantly produce three 5/3 Creatures?

Please, don't post on this thread again. Thank you.

Quote from: Terroking on October 29, 2009, 09:28:21 pm
you can't say its OP because you cannot stop it

I think a lot of people don't understand what overpowered means.

Overpowered does not mean invincible. There are ways to counter a card that produces 3 creatures, but that is not how you determine if a card is overpowered or not. If a 1 quantum cost card produces a 1000/1000 creature, it can be countered with Phase Shield or Mutation, but that does not make it balanced.

When we determine whether a card is overpowered or not, we have to compare it to other cards available. If Frog's Breeding was in the game, why would anyone use Giant Frogs anymore? There would be no point in taking three cards when we you could take one card that does exactly the same thing, and you can also take two extra towers.

Quote from: smallfishnova on Today at 02:03:16 am
Actually, I still think mono-aether is the best mono-deck due to the Dimension Shield.
For mono-element deck to fight the mono-Life deck.

So, let's see.
Life Pillar x 14
Empathic Bond x 4
Frog's Breeding x 6
Druidic Staff x 2
Emerald Dragon x 4

I would do something like this:

Life Pillar x 12
Feral Bond x 6
Frog's Breeding x 6
Giant Frog x 4
Druidic Staff x 1
Emerald Shield x 1

This 30 card deck would produce 22 creatures with 5/3. For defense it would have 6 x Feral Bond, Druidic Staff and indestructible shield. No mono-deck out there could deal with that.

Mono-aether couldn't do anything because it have very little creature control and lacks permanent destruction. After it runs out of Phase Shields, those frogs would run over it. The damage it does is easy to heal with 6 x Feral Bonds and 22 creatures.

Mono-fire would probably have the best chance but would still be easy to beat because it has no healing. Fire couldn't afford to pay for both Dragons and Firestorms, and Frogs would just slowly eat it. Think about it like this: even if somehow all those 22 frogs would always die as soon as you play them (impossible), they would STILL do 110 damage and heal you insane amounts.

When you describe those situation against other mono-decks, you make one mistake. You assume that the other player has already played all his key cards and life player for some reason hasn't done anything. That's not how it works.

if you don't care what the OP thinks then you don't care about his ideas, which you are commenting on and posting about, so i can conclude that you either care about the original post or you are just trying to get some personal honor by attacking others in this thread.

about fate egg: i was saying a new creature isn't produced, the fate egg simply changes its form like a druid would do to another creature, i'm not talking about how its not upped, just that fate egg does not produce a new creature

while i did say that they are 4/3 with nightfall, i also said that they are 2/2 without it and there is an infinite amount of them possible. in 95-98% of games a creature will die, assuming you have 6 graveyards, which you do with breeding, you will generate 6 creatures every time something dies. so graveyard is ONE card as you say with frog's breeding. saying its situational would be like saying bonds are situational because they don't work when you have full hp.

and you DID say that it will produce 3 creatures instantly when you were saying how its OP.

as you said about frogs, no one ever puts skeles into a deck but graveyard is frequent, as would be the case with frogs and breeding, and you could take 6 skeles out, usually get more than 6 per game, and fill in towers for the rest of the spots. think about if he were suggesting graveyard and it hadn't been invented, almost everyone would think that it is OP, due to the only counter being explosion or pulvy, and the masses it creates.

making the card spawn only 2 frogs with 9-10 cost seems like a good idea, as with that deck you would probably have to wait before managing to play frogs. also the synergy with bond wouldn't be as good because even with all 12 and your dragons out (which shouldn't happen) one bond could only heal 16 damage, and if you have all those monsters oit then it isn't likely that you would be able to put out more than 2 bonds, and 31 damage can easily be ripped through.you have to remember that mono-life has no creature of peranent control, and is therefore helpless to do anything other than damage to you.

in mono, that deck would not be very fast as like i have said, even if you have 4-5 towers draw you would have to wait 2 turns (1 upgraded) to be able to play breeding, or play another card and use up quanta forcing you to wait more.

assuming the other player got as good of a draw as life then he should be able to play either some monsters or get up defenses to wait until he can fight back.

summoning frogs from the deck/hand would be a good idea, but it would be spoiled by the 6 card limit. and choosing to summon 3,2, or one frog would slow the game down considerably, as well as take lots of programming, because all current abilities and spells either happen instantly, or require a target.