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RoKetha

  • Guest
Parallel Universe + Scarab (not the momentum bug) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=238.msg1914#msg1914
« on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:34 pm »

Using Parallel Universe on a swarm of Scarabs currently produces some rather interesting and often overpowered effects. It is debatable whether this is actually a bug but it could be so easily abused it might need to be changed anyway. These screens are all taken from AI matches so there's no desynching involved or anything.


Here's two Scarabs. They've been through a lot so their stats might not be what you'd expect from just two Scarabs, but what's important is that the number of Scarabs on the field has not changed yet this turn.


After using Parallel Universe and before ending the turn, all is as it should be.


Aaaaand we have a problem. The Scarabs on the right are fine; they gained +0/+1 as they should since a new Scarab came into play. The leftmost Scarab, however, entered play that turn, saw that there were two Scarabs already on the field, and gained +0/+2 accordingly. I've seen this happen with many Scarabs on the field, and each time, the new Scarab's HP increases by the number of existing Scarabs (like a freshly played Scarab) rather than by the number of new Scarabs on the field (like any Scarab that was present before the start of the turn).

Perhaps this is intended, perhaps not... but if I were to say, have five Scarabs on the field and duplicate one, that new one would immediately gain +0/+5, even though the Scarab it was copied from already had +0/+4 added to its stats for the "Scarabs on the field bonus". Let's do some math:

Turn 1: 4 scarabs at 3/5 (not unusual, they all ate one creature), one is duplicated
Turn 2: 4 scarabs at 3/6, one at 4/10 (say it ate something), that one is duplicated
Turn 3: 4 scarabs at 3/7, one at 4/11, one at 4/15, duplicated again, another Scarab is played as well
Turn 4: One scarab at 2/8, four at 3/8, one at 4/13, one at 4/17, one at 4/22

See why this is scary?

Parallel Universe + Scarab (not the momentum bug) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=238.msg2134#msg2134
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

Lol, I built a deck like this in the trainer. It worked okay, but against any early creature control, the deck fails horribly. >.<"

Delreich

  • Guest
Parallel Universe + Scarab (not the momentum bug) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=238.msg2875#msg2875
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:48 pm »

It's probably original health + N-1 for all of them, with the normal ones starting at 1.

Forfeit

  • Guest
Parallel Universe + Scarab (not the momentum bug) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=238.msg2876#msg2876
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:48 pm »

Actually, it's N+original scarabs health-1=Health, for some reason, the PU scarab doesn't affect it's own health counter in the N formula.

Forfeit

  • Guest
Parallel Universe + Scarab (not the momentum bug) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=238.msg2877#msg2877
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:48 pm »

I was about to post to see if this is a bug to, a very simple way to state it is, if you PU a scarab with 3 health, and have three sccarabs on the field, then the new scarab has a base life points of 3, and still gains three from the other scarabs on the field. So N+original scarabs hitpoints=health, not N equals health anymore.

Scaredgirl

  • Guest
Parallel Universe + Scarab (not the momentum bug) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=238.msg2878#msg2878
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:48 pm »

Lol, I built a deck like this in the trainer. It worked okay, but against any early creature control, the deck fails horribly. >.<"
They key is not to play Scarabs as soon as you are able to. Wait until you have 3-4 in hand OR Heavy Armor, then play them all at once and start eating!

wckz

  • Guest
Parallel Universe + Scarab (not the momentum bug) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=238.msg2879#msg2879
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:48 pm »

I don't think this is a bug.
For example:
2 scarabs up are 2|2 (base 2|1, + 1 hp for each of the other scarabs)
PU a scarab, 2 scarabs with 2|3 (base 2|1, + 1 hp for each of the other scarabs), 1 scarab with 2|4 (base 2|2 + 1 hp for each of the other scarabs).

Since you PU the scarab, it doesn't PU the base, it PU's the base + added bonuses
Similar to PUing a very buffed lava golem, if the golem is 30|27, if you PU it, the PU is 30|27, not the base, 7|1.

wckz

  • Guest
Parallel Universe + Scarab (not the momentum bug) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=238.msg2880#msg2880
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:48 pm »

Lol, I built a deck like this in the trainer. It worked okay, but against any early creature control, the deck fails horribly. >.<"
They key is not to play Scarabs as soon as you are able to. Wait until you have 3-4 in hand OR Heavy Armor, then play them all at once and start eating!
I also PU one round at a time, so I PU the PU'd creature. This gives the new creature godly scores ;D

RoKetha

  • Guest
Parallel Universe + Scarab (not the momentum bug) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=238.msg3203#msg3203
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:49 pm »

Again, it's pretty obvious why this happens.

When a Scarab is played from your hand, it has 2/1 (or 3/1 upgraded) every time. At the end of your turn, it counts the total number of scarabs on the field and increases its current and max HP by (number of scarabs - 1); it can't just set it to (number of scarabs) because that would cancel any buff card you played on it.

Any Scarab that has already been on the field for at least one turn updates its HP in a different way. I think the most likely method for doing this is by keeping track of the scarabs at the end of every turn. At the end of the player turn, existing scarabs add (number of scarabs on the field this turn - number of scarabs on the field last turn) to their HP.

The "bug" occurs because PU'd and Deja Vu'd creatures count as freshly played cards; the game does not actually copy the full data for the card but rather its stats and certain attributes, and creates a totally new card with this partial data. This partial copying of the card is why PUed/Deja Vu'd mutants are rerandomized (some kind of isMutant attribute is being copied; likely the Improved Mutation ability itself creates a new card with isMutant and then all new cards check for isMutant and randomize if true), why Momentum replaces the default creature ability, and why the new Scarab is treated as if it's played from your hand.


 

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