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JTWood

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Bugs/Imbalance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24.msg2665#msg2665
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:37 pm »

That's all fine and dandy if they only get one Bonewall in their deck.

But another gets played as soon as that one's toast!   :'(

wckz

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Bugs/Imbalance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24.msg2666#msg2666
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:37 pm »

I feel that bonewall is perfect as it is. Think about bone walls like actual walls. If an explosive could blow three walls at once, that'd be a little weird. Usually, Instead of sparing enemy creatures if a bonewall is up, you try getting a bonewall on yours die (Not necessary) and destroy their critters. When they're all gone, it doesn't matter if there's 20 or 30 walls up, just wait a few turns and they'll be gone in no time. You'll be able to wait this long because you killed his offensive creatures. Also, since bonewalls block weapons, they get destroyed pretty quickly. If you have the option of 1. Destroying his creatures and giving him more bonewalls, or 2. Ignore the creatures while battering his bone wall, choose option 1 unless you can defeat the bonewall in one or two turns. Also, if you're really scared of bonewalls, just stuff a couple of photons in your deck, and the walls will be gone in no time.

wckz

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Bugs/Imbalance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24.msg2845#msg2845
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:47 pm »

That's all fine and dandy if they only get one Bonewall in their deck.

But another gets played as soon as that one's toast!   :'(
JT, I posted this in another forum but look at some ways to defeat bonewall.


1st weakness: Summon creatures and wait, it will fall...and as it's damage inconsiderate, even with photons that cost nothing to summon will obliterate it
2nd weakness: Boneyards completely negate it (Example: He destroys your creatures, more skeletons pop up and obliterate his walls)
3rd weakness: FFQs (After Turn 1: 1 wall taken down, Turn 2: 3 walls taken down total, Turn 3: 6 walls taken down total, Turn 4: 10 walls taken down total, Turn 5: 15 walls taken down total) <--- With just 1 FFQ and a few life quantums
4th weakness: Doesn't matter how many walls are up, if you kill their creatures, it will fall (just don't deck out by drawing like a maniac)
5th weakness: Stealing works better than most people think (Have one bonewall up, then use spells or otyughs or mutants to destroy his army. You will likely only be a few bonewalls short of him, but as his creatures are gone, you can just batter away at his wall.) (I won against a 25 bonewall disadvantage this way.)
6th weakness: More costly than other shields, so depriving the enemies of quantum works very well against this, especially against rainbow decks that don't have death pillars (Use devourers, earthquakes, defragrations, pulverizer, etc.)
7th weakness: Pulverizers (As the wall blocks weapons as well as creatures, the pulverizer can destroy 2 walls every turn, and in four turns, the wall is gone [Not including creatures on the field, and this also works during stasis (sundial's automatic effect)])

These are some weaknesses that took very little time to think about, so there are probably more. Even if there aren't, 7 weaknesses is pretty easy to exploit.

Sundials + Bonewalls

Who says stasis can't work in your favor?

If you have otyughs, mindflayers, lobotomizers, lava golems, boneyards, fallen elves/druids, low quanta, dissapation shield/field, devourers, fate eggs, FFQs, Forest Spirits,  hourglasses, etc, stasis time can be very beneficial to you. While they hide behind a sundial, you can take advantage of this by using abilities activated every turn. This can give you super buffed creatures with high attacks and strange abilities, destroy his army/make it useless, create an army that will instantly destroy his bonewall, gather quanta for cards like miracle/dragons, or give you enough quanta to hide behind a dis. shield/field (If added with an encahnt artifact, it can make you nearly invincible while his shield only protects him for a turn or two).

de_spy

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Bugs/Imbalance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24.msg2860#msg2860
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:48 pm »

If you're playing any deck without momentum, bonewall is a beast.
Well, no.

JTWood

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Bugs/Imbalance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24.msg2861#msg2861
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:48 pm »

And he seems to be assuming you're playing rainbow.

If you're playing any deck without momentum, bonewall is a beast.

RoKetha

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Bugs/Imbalance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24.msg2862#msg2862
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:48 pm »

None of those actually work in practice though.

1) "Summon creatures" and they just play a Sundial and Devour them.
2) Boneyards create creatures that deal one attack and then generate two bones after being hit with just about anything in the game.
3) FFQ makes lots of delicious Oty/Scarab food and free bones. Rain of Fire is especially funny. More popular decks now have hard counters to FFQ than not.
4) Okay, you kill their creatures, but they're also killing yours, and every death benefits them more than it does you.
5) Steal does work yes. Playing your own Bone Wall would do better though; thus, it just means the card is its own best counter; hooray for imbalance.
6) Name one deck in the entire game that doesn't use Cremation and isn't weak to Earthquake. Bone Wall is generally played with Rainbow though and thus isn't weak to Devourers.
7) Pulverizer is too slow for Bone Wall by a long shot, though the upgraded one is still the most overpowered card in the entire game since there's a whole one card that counters it and you need multiples. Requiring 3-6 duplicate cards to counter two different ones (Pulv + enchant), with only one element being able to do this, is beyond imbalanced.
8) Sundials + Bonewalls? That FAVORS the Bone Wall user. Why do you think all those Rainbow decks use both?
-8a) Your Otys under Sundial are facing off with their Otys under Sundial. Whoever wins, Bone Wall gains charges.
-8b) Mindflayers are good but function better outside of Sundial. Of course, if you don't play them early, they're Oty fodder.
-8c) Lobotomizer is stealable and shuts down all your other "counters"
-8d) Boneyards are stealable and that REALLY comes back to bite you, but if you only have one you're just doubling their Oty food and bone growth rate.
-8e) Fallen Elves don't help break Bone Wall in any significant way, dunno what this has to do with the topic...
-8f) Okay, at this point you're just listing random creatures that aren't terrible under Sundial and are exactly the same as anything else regarding Bone Wall... congrats, you just recreated Scaredgirl's deck, why not add Bone Wall and make stronger, not to mention a total copy?

wckz

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Bugs/Imbalance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24.msg2863#msg2863
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:48 pm »

And he seems to be assuming you're playing rainbow.

If you're playing any deck without momentum, bonewall is a beast.
Not really, I was just listing strategies that are available to every element (Since every element = rainbow, it just gives rainbow more opportunities than others).

wckz

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Bugs/Imbalance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24.msg2864#msg2864
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:48 pm »

None of those actually work in practice though.

1) "Summon creatures" and they just play a Sundial and Devour them.
2) Boneyards create creatures that deal one attack and then generate two bones after being hit with just about anything in the game.
3) FFQ makes lots of delicious Oty/Scarab food and free bones. Rain of Fire is especially funny. More popular decks now have hard counters to FFQ than not.
4) Okay, you kill their creatures, but they're also killing yours, and every death benefits them more than it does you.
5) Steal does work yes. Playing your own Bone Wall would do better though; thus, it just means the card is its own best counter; hooray for imbalance.
6) Name one deck in the entire game that doesn't use Cremation and isn't weak to Earthquake. Bone Wall is generally played with Rainbow though and thus isn't weak to Devourers.
7) Pulverizer is too slow for Bone Wall by a long shot, though the upgraded one is still the most overpowered card in the entire game since there's a whole one card that counters it and you need multiples. Requiring 3-6 duplicate cards to counter two different ones (Pulv + enchant), with only one element being able to do this, is beyond imbalanced.
8) Sundials + Bonewalls? That FAVORS the Bone Wall user. Why do you think all those Rainbow decks use both?
-8a) Your Otys under Sundial are facing off with their Otys under Sundial. Whoever wins, Bone Wall gains charges.
-8b) Mindflayers are good but function better outside of Sundial. Of course, if you don't play them early, they're Oty fodder.
-8c) Lobotomizer is stealable and shuts down all your other "counters"
-8d) Boneyards are stealable and that REALLY comes back to bite you, but if you only have one you're just doubling their Oty food and bone growth rate.
-8e) Fallen Elves don't help break Bone Wall in any significant way, dunno what this has to do with the topic...
-8f) Okay, at this point you're just listing random creatures that aren't terrible under Sundial and are exactly the same as anything else regarding Bone Wall... congrats, you just recreated Scaredgirl's deck, why not add Bone Wall and make stronger, not to mention a total copy?
I'm assuming the deck has some kind of creature control...It's not hard to destroy Otyughs ... (In most mono/dual decks I would create, I would have some creature control because alot of people use otyughs)
No, this isn't meant just for rainbow decks, I was trying to give an opportunity to most elements, which means it looks rainbow.

"2) Boneyards create creatures that deal one attack and then generate two bones after being hit with just about anything in the game."
More often, the opposing deck doesn't HAVE the creature control to shut down every skeleton as long as you can shut down their otyughs without too much difficulty (Some strategies include, using buffed otyughs/mutants with devour to destroy them [could be yours, could be PU'd], mutating their otyughs, using weapons to weaken/reverse/lobotomize/etc. them, using creatures to lobotomize them, etc.) Add a rain of fire or some other creature control, and you'll have 5 skeletons in no time, and if they aren't destroyed instantly, the wall would be down in no time.

"3) FFQ makes lots of delicious Oty/Scarab food and free bones. Rain of Fire is especially funny. More popular decks now have hard counters to FFQ than not."
Again, I'm assuming most decks have some sort of creature control against Oty/Scarabs. As Rain of Fire is pretty costly, it's pretty likely that the fireflies will be up long enough to destroy/weaken the wall before the opponent can use Rain of Fire.

"4) Okay, you kill their creatures, but they're also killing yours, and every death benefits them more than it does you."
Not always, if you managed to steal a bonewall or have a boneyard, it might benefit you more then them. Remember, you can combine strategies. The creature war really depends on who had the better draw of creatures and spells to control the opposition.

"5) Steal does work yes. Playing your own Bone Wall would do better though; thus, it just means the card is its own best counter; hooray for imbalance."
I'm trying to give more chances to mono decks here, a mono-dark deck would never be able to play the expensive bone wall.

"6) Name one deck in the entire game that doesn't use Cremation and isn't weak to Earthquake. Bone Wall is generally played with Rainbow though and thus isn't weak to Devourers."
Again, these are just some strategies that work on it, it doesn't matter if they work on other decks. If it works, it works.

"7) Pulverizer is too slow for Bone Wall by a long shot, though the upgraded one is still the most overpowered card in the entire game since there's a whole one card that counters it and you need multiples. Requiring 3-6 duplicate cards to counter two different ones (Pulv + enchant), with only one element being able to do this, is beyond imbalanced."
As I was saying before, you don't need to rely on just one strategy, and just 1 card of each might do the trick. If you draw them, then it will just be a bit easier and faster to destroy the wall. Also, as mentioned before, I'm trying to give mono decks more chance, so this might be a strategy for a gravity deck. I'm not making every strategy for a single deck (Unless you consider that multiple mono decks = rainbow).

"8) Sundials + Bonewalls? That FAVORS the Bone Wall user. Why do you think all those Rainbow decks use both? -> It does have an advantage, but that advantage can be reduced by the following.
-8a) Your Otys under Sundial are facing off with their Otys under Sundial. Whoever wins, Bone Wall gains charges. -> Luck reliant, just like alot of things in this game. Only thing is, if this is a mono/dual deck, it's more likely that you can summon and buff your otyughs before the opponent.
-8b) Mindflayers are good but function better outside of Sundial. Of course, if you don't play them early, they're Oty fodder. -> Not necessarily true, as if you have Owl's Eye, Rain of Fire, Lightning, buffed otyughs, etc., A mindflayer has a good chance of surviving (Remember, I'm thinking that most decks, even mono/dual decks have SOME sort of creature control).
-8c) Lobotomizer is stealable and shuts down all your other "counters" -> True, but you can steal it back if you really need to and are able to, or you could have an enchant artifact ready. You could also combine this strategy with the quantum depriving strategy mentioned before (Remember, these strategies don't stand alone, you can combine them).
-8d) Boneyards are stealable and that REALLY comes back to bite you, but if you only have one you're just doubling their Oty food and bone growth rate. -> As this issue is usually in pvp, I would think that the player could think better than an AI, and could figure out that he should weaken the otyughs somehow. Also, who says you can't steal boneyard back? Or if you have otyughs, who says you can't take advantage of them stealing the boneyard to feed them?
-8e) Fallen Elves don't help break Bone Wall in any significant way, dunno what this has to do with the topic... -> Mutants have strange abilities, and when someone's using sundial, a player would usually have enough time to create a mutant with destroy/steal. Also, this could be used as a way to build up damage for when sundial is in effect (A different topic, but if you like looking at an army of mutants, it's very fun to take advantage of their sundials).
-8f) Okay, at this point you're just listing random creatures that aren't terrible under Sundial and are exactly the same as anything else regarding Bone Wall... congrats, you just recreated Scaredgirl's deck, why not add Bone Wall and make stronger, not to mention a total copy?" -> I'm listing "random" creatures to show that most mono/dual decks have a chance. Why not add Bone Wall? Most mono decks can't use it. I'm sorry if giving example from most mono decks looks rainbow, because it is. The fact is, rainbow decks have more opportunities, but mono decks can still destroy bone walls. I wasn't making the strategies for rainbow decks, but any strategy a mono/dual deck can use, a rainbow deck can use too.

oki

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Bugs/Imbalance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24.msg6039#msg6039
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:01 pm »

Not a single bug has been fixed in 6 weeks. Might as well disable PvP until at least the game breaking bugs are fixed.


Bugs/Imbalance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24.msg6040#msg6040
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:01 pm »

Not a single bug has been fixed in 6 weeks. Might as well disable PvP until at least the game breaking bugs are fixed.

PvP is actually working a LOT better with the new server up.

 

blarg: