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Seravy

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Rebirth... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6313.msg65440#msg65440
« on: May 08, 2010, 06:14:14 pm »
I've started playing Phoenixes and they behave strange.

Creatures can't use abilities on the turn you play them/they enter play...
Now, not for Phoenixes :

-Phoenix, when killed, turns into an Ash.  It is not a new creature, so just like when doing mutations, you should be able to use the ability immediately, yet you can't.
-If the Phoenix was killed on your opponent's turn, you still can't use it, even though you should be able to (it wasn't coming into play on your turn even if turning into an ash would count like coming into play, it was coming into play the turn before yours, so it should work)
-If the Phoenix dies during your turn's attack phase (due to fire shield), you still can't use it on your next turn, even though TWO turns, yours and your opponent's was ended since then.

Oh yeah, also...
"When phoenix is killed, it turns into an Ash"
and Cremation's
"Sacrifice a creature to ..."

I'm happy that the phoenix tuns into an Ash when you use a cremation on it, it is great synergy for Fire decks, but...fix that card text.
Sacrifice and Killed are two different terms, so and coincidentally, Sacrifice is also used in other card games...where sacrificed cards do not count as destroyed/killed ones. So the current card text implies the phoenix will not turn into an ash, but it does.

Changing the text into "Kill one of your own creatures to..." on cremation would fix this problem.

Offline Kamietsu

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Re: Rebirth... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6313.msg65443#msg65443
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2010, 06:17:43 pm »
point 1: Very wrong. Ash is a new creatures. Phoenix dies and Ash takes it's place. It does count as a new creature. so it does have summoning sickness and you can't use the skill until the next turn.

point 2: Wrong again. Though it died on your opponent's turn, you can't use the ability until your opponent's next turn(or your turn on the turn after they killed it)

point 3: I haven't a clue about that one. I've never come across the situation.
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Seravy

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Re: Rebirth... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6313.msg65449#msg65449
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2010, 06:24:11 pm »
Now, if you have used the term "Summoning sickness", then you know MTG rules.
If it works the same as "summoning sickness", then it means you can use the ability after you started your own turn with the creature in play.
It doesn't care about turns that are not yours.

Quote
point 1: Very wrong. Ash is a new creatures. Phoenix dies and Ash takes it's place. It does count as a new creature. so it does have summoning sickness and you can't use the skill until the next turn.
If that is true, it means I'll get a skeleton token from graveyard when that happens. Time to test that.

Hmm, I did get skeletons, and bone wall got tokens too.
Then the card text is the one that needs to be updated to
"When Phoenix is destroyed, put an Ash into play"
...by the way...when the Ash is turned into a Phoenix, it doesn't count as a new creature, so the term "Turn" is used for two different gameplay effects.

Offline Kamietsu

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Re: Rebirth... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6313.msg65455#msg65455
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2010, 06:28:31 pm »
It's just a term that applies here, the mechanics are not the same, or might be the same, I barely know M:TG. But I do know that one full turn equals your turn + your opponents turn, however, if something happens on your opponents turn, you have to wait until your opponents next turn. Example:

Turn 1(you): Play Phoenix
Turn 1(Opponent): Kills phoenix, turns to ash.
Turn 2(you): Cannot Rebirth yet.

Why can't you rebirth yet? because it's only been a half turn since it was killed.

And as for the mutants thing, it applies the same there too. If the skeleton, or creature that you used mutation on was just played, you can't use the ability that you get that turn. You have to wait one full turn.
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Seravy

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Re: Rebirth... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6313.msg65470#msg65470
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2010, 06:36:55 pm »
Quote
And as for the mutants thing, it applies the same there too. If the skeleton, or creature that you used mutation on was just played, you can't use the ability that you get that turn. You have to wait one full turn.
See above post, I've edited it.
Same for mutation : It uses the term "Turn", yet doesn't kill the creature nor make a new one. If the original creature has been in play for long enough to use it's (not existing) ability, then the mutated creature can use its new ability as well. In Phoenix's case, "Turn" refers to a new creature instead, so it does a different thing.

Also
Quote
But I do know that one full turn equals your turn + your opponents turn, however, if something happens on your opponents turn, you have to wait until your opponents next turn. Example:

Turn 1(you): Play Phoenix
Turn 1(Opponent): Kills phoenix, turns to ash.
Turn 2(you): Cannot Rebirth yet.
I kinda expected that it is intended to work that way, but where is the rulebook that says so?
Games are supposed to have rules...it shouldn't be like this that you only get to know what the rules are after playing for months and facing every possible situation...

Offline Kamietsu

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Re: Rebirth... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6313.msg65479#msg65479
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2010, 06:42:02 pm »
A lot of that is basics, actually, I understood most of it after a day or two of playing.

And as for the Sacrifice versus killed issue you stated above, that's just nitpicking in this game. Regardless of how other games work, the creature still dies.

If you are unaware of some of these unwritten rules in the game, check out this post in the Newbie section: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4461.0.html

It tells a lot of things about the rules of the game that people have compiled.
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Seravy

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Re: Rebirth... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6313.msg65488#msg65488
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2010, 06:46:39 pm »
Quote
If you are unaware of some of these unwritten rules in the game, check out this post in the Newbie section: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4461.0.html

It tells a lot of things about the rules of the game that people have compiled.
Game rules should be written under the "Rules" section of the main page, not on some forum page. Most players never visit the forums. Those that do, probably won't read the newbie section after several months of playing.

And it might sound "nitpicking", but image the game with 1500 different card, where there are let's say 25 cards having "turn" written on them and each one working in one way or the other. Do you expect the players to memorize all that, instead of writing it on the cards properly?
(This is just the issue with the word "turn", there are/will be hundreds of others probably, if things continue like this)

What this game badly needs is more developers.
-One in charge of programming.
-One in charge of designing game rules, and maintains the rules page.
-One or more in charge of designing new cards...

Currently we have the first, but no one does the other two.

Scaredgirl

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Re: Rebirth... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6313.msg65508#msg65508
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2010, 07:07:27 pm »
Main problem here is of course the limited space for text in card description. Some cards have complex effects that are impossible to thoroughly explain with 20 words.

I think you are making a big deal out of something minor. There are some details in Elements that you have to learn to hard way through trial and error but so what? Think of it as and adventure into the unknown. Getting a 100 page manual that explains all the small details of the game might take out the mystery.

As for this killed vs. sacrificed.. that's just your own personal false interpretation of the situation based on your experience in some other game. To me sacrificing a creature so that it disappears from the table is clearly killing it.

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Re: Rebirth... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6313.msg65791#msg65791
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2010, 09:32:29 am »
definition of sacrifice: target & kill a creature on your own side

So, sacrificed < killed

Seravy

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Re: Rebirth... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6313.msg66287#msg66287
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2010, 12:12:39 pm »
Quote
There are some details in Elements that you have to learn to hard way through trial and error but so what?
As someone who played many card games before, and even played on various tournament I say this :

If that hard way happens to be on an important game, like the finals of a tournament, and you lose the game for it, that's pretty bad. Enough to make you hate the game and quit.
Also, unlike a real tournament, where, if something is unsure, you yell "Judge!", and your question will be answered, in here, you have less than 60 seconds to find out the answer, without any help whatsoever.
If it's automatic, and there is no way to correct mistakes, you WANT to be 100% sure that things will happen the way it is defined by rules or cards.

Or would you enter a tournament of any kind (chess for example), knowing that they play by special, house rules, that you have no way of knowing in advance, and will find out during the game?

Of course, if you play a deck tested against an AI, you can find out how the cards work in YOUR deck, but the possible effects and interactions between them and your opponent's cards, not so much. For example, an AI will rarely if ever play an animated, adrenalined Jade staff against you, so you'll most likely find out it heals 4 times when an opponent in pvp plays it against you. Now, if you didn't destroy the staff because you didn't know it will do so, and you then lose to the extra 15 healing per turn that is nowhere mentioned in game rules, nor card text, is that really ok?
If you get killed by swarms of skeletons after reading the Phonixes' text that says they turn into ashes, and conclude that boneyards won't give the opponent any skeletons, and firestom them, is that ok?
Definitely not.

Quote
definition of sacrifice: target & kill a creature on your own side

So, sacrificed < killed
Does that mean I can't use cremation on an immaterial creature of my own?
Hmm right, you can't. I never would have guessed that one.
Come on guys, put those definitions into the game rules, I'm not a mind-reader.

It's up to you how you do it, but I think instead of wasting all that time trying to explain why the bad things are way way they are, you should work on making them better.

Quote
Think of it as and adventure into the unknown. Getting a 100 page manual that explains all the small details of the game might take out the mystery.
That's where you are wrong.
You see, this is NOT an RPG. It's not an ACTION GAME. It's not a DETECTIVE GAME.
This is a CARD GAME, one that is based on rules and strategies. Like chess. The player with a better strategy (and of course stronger cards) WINS. But for strategy,you need to know the rules first. If those rules are too complicated to explain, and you need 100 pages for the basics, then you messed up in the design phase of the project, and not just a little bit.
However, that much is not necessary.
You need a few (5-10) pages for the basic rules (turn sequence, attacking, card types, types of abilities (passive, active, triggered, replacement) etc), and a definition for keyworded abilities (1-2 page at most at the moment, but will grow larger when the card pool increases.). Everything else is a card effect, and needs to be written on the card.

If the text would be too long, you can either
-keyword the ability
-use a smaller font
-don't make such overcomplicated cards, if the text doesn't fit even in smaller font. There are thousands of better, easier to understand, and simpler card ideas, use them.
-If the card is really important/cool/special, add an entry to the rules, that explains it, and use shorter text. (Like Mindslaver in MtG, the only card that allows you to "control your opponent's turn")

However, at 99% of times, the length of the text is not the issue, the wording is.
For example, Phoenix's card :

When Phoenix dies, put an Ash into play.
(isn't longer that the original text)
 :fire : Turn Ash into a Phoenix
(original text)

Definition of "Turn", and "dies" are of course necessary in the rulebook, those are both used by many cards, so they need to be defined anyway.

And yes, you have to define basic things like "dies". Otherwise such questions will arise :
-Does a creature die when it is "destroyed" by a card effect, or only when it takes too much damage? (After adding cards that can destroy creatures too, like "destroy target Aether card in play" for example)
-Does a creature die when it is removed from play like returned to the top of the deck? (reverse time)
-Does it die when it is removed from the game and not put into a graveyard (obviously, this will only rise as a question after graveyards are introduced)
-Does it still count as dieing if it is no longer a creature (after adding effects that allow it to turn into a non-creature permanent, like a reversed animate weapon)

These are the reasons why MTG doesn't use "when the this creature dies...", and uses the much clearer "When this card is put into a graveyard from play" instead.

Oh, by the way, back to "types of abilities"...
Lobotomizer removes abilities, yet it doesn't remove Devourer's ability. It seems to be intentional, but what kind of rule is behind that? Does lobotomizer not work on triggered abilities, or what? Is there even such a thing as triggered abilities in this game? What about replacement abilities?

Ah and another one :
How is it possible that when a creature reaches 0 life when taking damage it is killed immediately, yet spark, which has 0 life when entering play doesn't die until the end of the turn? Isn't that again an inconsistency in rules?

Also think about it...
if every second card needs a written explanation on how it works, it might be ok when there are only 50-100 cards to remember, but what about later?
With 1000 different cards, and 1000*1000 possible different two-card interactions (let's not even think about what happens when there are more than two cards in play affecting each other), do you still expect players to find it out "the hard way" for every card? or read all that info on the forums?

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Re: Rebirth... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6313.msg66422#msg66422
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2010, 06:04:45 pm »
All I can see that you are doing is nitpicking such small details that hardly anyone complains about. There is a list of rules that we as a gaming community have figured out. If you want the rules, go look at them in the Newbie section. And every other person that comes along asking why this card does this or that card does that, I always try to point them towards the newbie section where we have a set list of rules.

Stop thinking about other cards games when you play this game. It's not a good idea. I don't compare past girlfriends to new girlfriends, and if I do, i definitely don't do it out loud and to her face(which is basically what you are doing here)
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Seravy

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Re: Rebirth... https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6313.msg68759#msg68759
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2010, 08:04:16 pm »
Whatever. I won't bother anymore then. When there will be a 1000 different cards in the game, and ten-hundred times more players, with tournaments and everything, you'll realize your mistakes, and the need for well-defined rules...but it will be too late to fix it by then...if the game ever gets to that point, which I doubt seeing the speed of development.

I thought sharing my experience about game rules in general is helpful after playing different card games for like 7 years, and even being a certified judge in MtG, Yugioh, and some others, but if you consider it nitpicking, it's up to you. Your game, do what you want. It's the players who'll suffer from it unfortunately, but I don't care anymore.

Now, back on topic :
With all of the above considered, the ability not being available if the phoenix dies during the previous turn's attacking does seem like a bug, unless attacking happen after the turn is over, which I doubt. Check if that's intended or not. The rest is most likely intended the way it is.

 

anything
blarg: