Post by: ratcharmer on March 23, 2011, 03:59:09 pm
Even in decks like fractal retrovirus or fractal sparks that specialize in triggering lots of death effects Ivory dragon is the preferred creature for damage dealing over condor. It seems like since soul catcher came out this guy's just been outclassed.
(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Vulture.png)(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Upgrade.png)(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Condor.png)
I'm not looking for a huge buff here, just a small stat boost or maybe -1 cost.
Post by: Isei on March 24, 2011, 12:01:31 am
Post by: Nepycros on March 24, 2011, 12:04:50 am
Seriously though, you guys aren't openin' your mind, which is why I recommend this prescription where...
Jokes aside, it's my honest opinion that it's better to increase the number of creatures that benefit from death than the dying creatures themselves!
Post by: AnoverX on March 27, 2011, 03:18:52 pm
no buff needed.
Post by: ddevans96 on March 27, 2011, 03:28:02 pm
Post by: AnoverX on March 27, 2011, 03:52:18 pm
A powerful skill on a weak creature does not make a powerful creature. Vulture definitely needs more HP or a lower cost.A powerful skill on a strong/cheap creature make an op creature.
Post by: ztormtrooper on March 27, 2011, 04:07:57 pm
well do you know how long it takes for the vulture or condor to be in a pwnage stage? I mean if your facing RoL/hope not long but if you facing high hp creature long. However a -1 cost make it 2 cost is gonna be good for it.A powerful skill on a weak creature does not make a powerful creature. Vulture definitely needs more HP or a lower cost.A powerful skill on a strong/cheap creature make an op creature.
Post by: Rastafla on March 27, 2011, 04:09:55 pm
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on March 27, 2011, 04:15:38 pm
Post by: ratcharmer on March 28, 2011, 12:50:09 pm
Fractal condor CAN be somewhat effective, but the same deck using Ivory dragons instead can kill FGs ( http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17967.0.html )
Let's do a side-by-side comparison:
When fractalling dragons, one first uses fractal on retrovirus. This combines with soul catcher to give enough :death to fractal the dragons. This also provides early cc and stalling (by boosting bonewall).
Now for condor. Generally, you want to play the condors first, so they can get boosted when the retroviruses die. This means that a) the initial fractal is more expensive b) your cc and stalling is delayed and c) your attackers still only do 1 damage until the second fractal.
even after the second fractal there's a 1-turn delay before the retroviruses can use their skill, and assuming 8 deaths that turn, the condors are still only at 9 attack versus the dragons 11. Generally by the time the condors can catch up in damage the dragon deck is ready to lay down another fractal of dragons.
@AnoverX:
Why is scavenger particularly strong on a :death card? Death actually doesn't have very good cc.
Compared to other growth abilities scavenger gives less of a boost and needs another card to trigger it, but it can trigger more often and has no quanta cost to use, so I'd put them about equal. However, vulture/condor starts with worse stats than other growth creatures, and it's more expensive than forest spirit or fire spirit. (the closest growth creatures stat-wise)
Post by: killybob on March 28, 2011, 04:24:47 pm
I think 2 :death/2 :death is acceptablesounds about right. there is no way it needs a stat boost since you're only gonna play it if you're gonna use it, so soon enough it will become more powerful. 2/2 sounds balanced.
Post by: PlayerOa on April 02, 2011, 05:41:59 pm
Post by: ninjamaster1991 on April 02, 2011, 06:56:11 pm
Post by: killybob on April 02, 2011, 07:55:02 pm
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on April 02, 2011, 08:17:43 pm
Post by: johannhowitzer on April 02, 2011, 10:02:37 pm
Post by: cometbah on April 08, 2011, 04:40:58 pm
I did vote for +1 HP to start off, though... but that's just personal greed =9 I could always just pack a Nightfall instead.
Post by: ninjamaster1991 on April 08, 2011, 04:44:53 pm
Post by: ratcharmer on April 08, 2011, 05:23:00 pm
I'm a little confused as to how your :death / :darkness deck is supposed to work. From the way you're describing it, you kill something to gain skeletons but then since there is no repeatable cc for :death or :darkness you have to use up a card in order to kill your own 1/1 (2/2 if nightfall is in play) creature and give another creature +1/+1. With enough vultures this might become workable but by the time you get 3 or 4 vultures in play the game has likely ended already.
@ninjamaster1991:
If you try the same or a similar deck with soulcatcher + dragons I find it usually works better. Again though, I'm not saying this card is totally useless, unlike some (*cough* BUFF FATE EGG *cough*), but vulture decks are almost always outperformed by other cards.
Post by: zse on April 08, 2011, 07:14:47 pm
Voting for 1|2 unupped and 2|4 upped.This. Both birds still in size range for Oty & Butterfly, but not getting Maxwell'd even with Eclipse on board.
Post by: Neopergoss on April 08, 2011, 08:27:21 pm
but then since there is no repeatable cc for :death or :darknessParasite
Post by: ratcharmer on April 13, 2011, 02:13:15 pm
D'oh!but then since there is no repeatable cc for :death or :darknessParasite
Not sure how I forgot that since parasite is one of my favorite cards . . .
Still sounds a little slow to me (requires at least 3 cards in play from 2 elements) but definitely more workable.
Post by: Toimu13 on April 15, 2011, 02:16:41 am
Wait. Maybe instead of buffing Vulture, we buff scavenger?I was thinking give Scavenger +2/+2 but after reading a few post I guess that would be OP.
Post by: Calindu on May 17, 2011, 08:03:43 am
Post by: Time_lord_victorius on May 17, 2011, 08:07:10 pm
Post by: DrOctaganapus2 on May 17, 2011, 11:31:17 pm
Vulture - 1/2
Condor - 2/3
The creature relies on slowly building up power like Otyugh or Forest Spirit but it needs creatures to die unlike Otyugh or Forest Spirit who need a little amount of quanta.
Post by: Higurashi on May 23, 2011, 11:47:27 pm
Post by: Tea is good on May 24, 2011, 11:50:56 pm
Post by: Neopergoss on May 25, 2011, 01:27:09 pm
Post by: Bonestorm on May 25, 2011, 02:02:36 pm
Post by: MeetJSquared on May 25, 2011, 07:19:16 pm
edit: Maybe even 1/2, then 2/3 upped... I don't think that would be OP. Input?
Post by: Neopergoss on May 26, 2011, 02:59:01 pm
+2/+2 would be funny, flooding your field with Aflatoxin + one Condor , and popping a UG = OTKThat wouldn't be very easy to do (It takes a long time to set up, you have to sac a creature, and it requires 3 elements with a high cost in 2 of them), and it wouldn't work if the opponent had any shield. I don't think that would be OP.
edit: and I don't think it would even work unupped unless you buffed the vulture first, because the explosion would kill the vulture, too.
Post by: TStar on May 26, 2011, 04:24:27 pm
Post by: Bonestorm on May 27, 2011, 02:53:41 am
I never said anything about OP/UP, it's two condors btw I was tired when I wrote that. I don't understand what you mean by any shield, the OTK is not including the cells attacking. I've never tried :death/ :fire, maybe it could run in a mod Firestall? You could probably just run it off death mark and lose pends for towers using deadly poisons and condors.. ;O just a thought probably not as efficient. (More instant damage isn't healable through)+2/+2 would be funny, flooding your field with Aflatoxin + one Condor , and popping a UG = OTKThat wouldn't be very easy to do (It takes a long time to set up, you have to sac a creature, and it requires 3 elements with a high cost in 2 of them), and it wouldn't work if the opponent had any shield. I don't think that would be OP.
edit: and I don't think it would even work unupped unless you buffed the vulture first, because the explosion would kill the vulture, too.
Post by: Neopergoss on May 27, 2011, 01:10:19 pm
.Yeah my mistake it'd actually be pretty hard to stop the damage with a shield.I never said anything about OP/UP, it's two condors btw I was tired when I wrote that. I don't understand what you mean by any shield, the OTK is not including the cells attacking. I've never tried :death/ :fire, maybe it could run in a mod Firestall? You could probably just run it off death mark and lose pends for towers using deadly poisons and condors.. ;O just a thought probably not as efficient. (More instant damage isn't healable through)+2/+2 would be funny, flooding your field with Aflatoxin + one Condor , and popping a UG = OTKThat wouldn't be very easy to do (It takes a long time to set up, you have to sac a creature, and it requires 3 elements with a high cost in 2 of them), and it wouldn't work if the opponent had any shield. I don't think that would be OP.
edit: and I don't think it would even work unupped unless you buffed the vulture first, because the explosion would kill the vulture, too.
Post by: Acsabi44 on June 11, 2011, 11:31:05 pm
We don't need every card to be *powerful* if it seems weak.
What we need is to ensure that every card *is* played ... somewhere. Condor is.
no buff.
Post by: Camoninja on June 12, 2011, 12:37:19 am
Post by: Thalas on June 15, 2011, 08:46:43 pm
Post by: BluePriest on June 15, 2011, 10:25:59 pm
Ive got a new way to buff this card.
Vulture 6 :death
5/4
Scavenger
Change it to an offensive card, but slightly more expensive so that its not a rush card.
Post by: The_Mormegil on June 15, 2011, 10:36:45 pm
I like using bone shield to stall, along with aflatoxin, then splashing an air mark. Once the field is full of malignant cells, you play a bone wall, all the condors you saved up, and a lightning. Its fun. Is it a deadly combo? Yeah. Does it take way too long to set up and will most likely die before its set up? Yeah. You need a way to get a lot of creatures on opponents field for this to be useful, otherwise its a dead card.Except that Death already has Mummy and Recluse...
Ive got a new way to buff this card.
Vulture 6 :death
5/4
Scavenger
Change it to an offensive card, but slightly more expensive so that its not a rush card.
Post by: BluePriest on June 15, 2011, 10:40:27 pm
Post by: Etharaes on February 02, 2013, 12:18:14 am
-Have it come into play with tthe stats of x|x+1 and x+1|+2. x would be the number of death effects that have occured at any point in the match.
-Make scavenger give the vulture more stats. However, making vulture give higher attack might imbalance it with decks that use the vulture/aflatoxin/mass CC combo.
-A slightly obscure buff would be making scavenger activate when permanents are destroyed along with creatures being killed.
-Simply give it better starting stats (A vanilla buff).
Post by: Chapuz on February 02, 2013, 12:26:41 am
As Vultures usually run with Bone Wall, being that expensive makes it hard to use both cards fast.
Post by: Absol on February 02, 2013, 12:41:42 am
-3 starting attack, same cost. Which means the Scavenger skill costs the same as 3 attack (3 :underworld).
Is this balanced? Is it situational? How many in-element (or off-element) cards to trigger death effect reliably?
Sure, it's good in Bonestorm or Malignant Storm OTK, but anything else?
Now i don't know whether Scavenger is situational or not. If it is, buff it. If not, then don't.
Just drop the cost by 1 and we're fine. Dropping it by 2 might be too much though.
Post by: BaitaLon on February 03, 2013, 11:41:58 am
Post by: TheManuz on February 03, 2013, 12:04:07 pm
Minor buff: 1/2 stats for unupgraded and 2/3 stats for the upgraded oneAgree with this buff!
If you compare
with you need 3 death effects to reach the same power (well, Flesh Spider has the Web ability, so it's still powerful than Vulture!).I think Vulture should be equal to Flesh Spider after 2 or 1 death effect. So either:
- decrease its cost to 2 :death
- increase its stats to 1|2 or little more.
Now let's compare
to : it needs 5 death effects to reach the same attack! And only 1 to reach its HP. So that's an average of 3 death effects (and i'm not considering that ATTACK is worth more than HP).So even for Condor:
- decrease its cost to 2 :death
- increase its stats to 2|3 or little more.
Post by: UnderneathTheLens on February 12, 2013, 03:37:53 am
This would make sense thematically as well, since a bigger/stronger/more delicious creature would have more food/nutrition/happiness granting ability.
Post by: Pella on February 12, 2013, 03:51:17 am
What if the vulture was to gain stats proportional (NOT EQUAL, PROPORTIONAL) to the ATK|HP of the creature that died?Fascinating idea, and I really like the thematic connection.
This would make sense thematically as well, since a bigger/stronger/more delicious creature would have more food/nutrition/happiness granting ability.
How would the proportional thing work?
Post by: Drake_XIV on February 12, 2013, 05:36:12 am
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on March 17, 2013, 11:57:54 am
Post by: pulli23 on April 01, 2013, 03:30:49 pm
Post by: Poker Alho on April 01, 2013, 03:53:18 pm
OR
i think scavenger should work differently from how it currently works. If you had just one vulture out and a creature dies, it should gain the stats of said creature (although there should be a defined limit, like +4/+4 and some exceptions, like spark, where it should only gain +1/+1 imo). But if you had more vultures out, when a creature dies, its stats should be distributed among them, down to a minimum of +1/+1. Doing this enables strategies where running just 2 or 3 vultures might be better than to do a deck based on them. this change would not harm any current strategy based on them
Post by: Heric the Dark Lord on April 02, 2013, 01:06:06 am
Post by: Poker Alho on April 02, 2013, 08:42:25 am
It might need a buff, but It already kills with Mono-death, Air-death, Entropy-death, and theoretically fire-death. All of them have Mass CC effects, combined with bigger control for the stronger monsters. Maybe it being 1/1, 2/3 upped sounds good, but being a mono-fire, I know that when the opponent can kill your monsters reliably, the vulture becomes a tank.
those decks are not that good/reliable. Vulture is not that good of a card as it is right now, because its ability is dependant on either your creatures or the other deck's creatures dying (alot) for it to grow to become a threat, unless you build your entire deck around it, and those decks are slow and easy to counter.
Post by: Heric the Dark Lord on April 02, 2013, 09:53:48 am
It might need a buff, but It already kills with Mono-death, Air-death, Entropy-death, and theoretically fire-death. All of them have Mass CC effects, combined with bigger control for the stronger monsters. Maybe it being 1/1, 2/3 upped sounds good, but being a mono-fire, I know that when the opponent can kill your monsters reliably, the vulture becomes a tank.
those decks are not that good/reliable. Vulture is not that good of a card as it is right now, because its ability is dependant on either your creatures or the other deck's creatures dying (alot) for it to grow to become a threat, unless you build your entire deck around it, and those decks are slow and easy to counter.
Player A: Rushes. gets 7th creature out.
Player B: Plays Vulture. Plays RoF, killing 6 out of 7 of A's cards. 6/7 vulture.
That's just 2 cards. Play Vulture + Fire shield? Constantly buffing bird. With the new buff in air, it's not unreasonable to pack a few thunderstorms, which will raise your birds stats.
Like I said, It does need a buff, but the power of vulture used right can't be denied. In my opinion, 1/1, 2/3 upped is still reasonable.
Post by: Poker Alho on April 02, 2013, 10:55:55 am
It might need a buff, but It already kills with Mono-death, Air-death, Entropy-death, and theoretically fire-death. All of them have Mass CC effects, combined with bigger control for the stronger monsters. Maybe it being 1/1, 2/3 upped sounds good, but being a mono-fire, I know that when the opponent can kill your monsters reliably, the vulture becomes a tank.
those decks are not that good/reliable. Vulture is not that good of a card as it is right now, because its ability is dependant on either your creatures or the other deck's creatures dying (alot) for it to grow to become a threat, unless you build your entire deck around it, and those decks are slow and easy to counter.
Player A: Rushes. gets 7th creature out.
Player B: Plays Vulture. Plays RoF, killing 6 out of 7 of A's cards. 6/7 vulture.
That's just 2 cards. Play Vulture + Fire shield? Constantly buffing bird. With the new buff in air, it's not unreasonable to pack a few thunderstorms, which will raise your birds stats.
Like I said, It does need a buff, but the power of vulture used right can't be denied. In my opinion, 1/1, 2/3 upped is still reasonable.
at the time a decent rush deck sends its 7th creature out, you should already be dead. And you are assuming those creatures will die to a RoF...and even if that actually works, you only have some decent beaters out to kill your opponent...
Post by: Heric the Dark Lord on April 02, 2013, 10:55:38 pm
It is only at that point a half decent beater...until you kill the seventh creature. And the eighth. and the ninth. and the tenth. and the...
I am in support of a buff, cause it's a rather slow card. Just, not a buff that makes it a scavenger with stats on par with Blue Crawler or Horned frog. That would be OP, especially considering what elemental uses Vulture.
Post by: Poker Alho on April 02, 2013, 11:05:22 pm
I've never been one to fully understand the meta. I'm assuming a munchkin rush, mostly made of frogs, blue crawlers, Pegasi, and the like.
It is only at that point a half decent beater...until you kill the seventh creature. And the eighth. and the ninth. and the tenth. and the...
I am in support of a buff, cause it's a rather slow card. Just, not a buff that makes it a scavenger with stats on par with Blue Crawler or Horned frog. That would be OP, especially considering what elemental uses Vulture.
well most rushes in the current meta use cards like graboid/shrieker, lava golem among others, and those rushes are fast enough to kill you in 5-6 turns (assuming upped meta) and most of these can take a hit against RoF or even more (shrieker can burrow and golem grows)
The card does need a buff and yes, you are right on how it should NOT be buffed in order to not outclass other creatures
Post by: Heric the Dark Lord on April 02, 2013, 11:59:00 pm
In that case, I'm not sure how to stop a golem rush, except rewind or skull shield(If lucky). Graboid/shriekers are killed above ground with Fire CC, below with the shield, fire or skull.
Yeah, I support a buff, but I'd say 1/1, 2/3 upped is good, considering the effect and cost. Death, mono or otherwise, is good enough at CC to buff it to equal level in a matter of turns, and past that, better.
Post by: skyironsword on April 11, 2013, 01:37:37 am
Post by: Helston on April 15, 2013, 03:05:38 am
Player A: Rushes. gets 7th creature out.
Player B: Plays Vulture. Plays RoF, killing 6 out of 7 of A's cards. 6/7 vulture.
(I know you've changed your opinion since you've posted this, however it's a good opportunity to show why Vulture could do with a buff)
This is actually quite a good example as to why Vulture isn't OP. I'll assume Player A all 7 creatures last turn, and they average 5 damage. I'll ignore the creature that survives to simplify things. In which case you've just payed 3 :death, 7 :fire, 2 cards and 30 health lost to gain a 4 card advantage and a 6|7 creature with scavanger. A 6|7 creature would cost either 5 :underworld or 6 :underworld (See Abyss Crawler, Toadfish, Steel Golem), so by playing the Vulture compared to other creatures, you have a +3 :underworld advantage. The Rain of Fire costs 7 :underworld and gives you a +5 card advantage. If memory serves me correctly, the cost of a card is approximately 2 :underworld (see Electrum Hourglass), so the Rain of Fire puts you at a +5 :underworld advantage.
Considering both cards require the 30 damage to be taken, I'll look at it in the context of both of them. It will take 5 turns of completely uninterrupted damage for the Vulture to pay back the 30 damage taken from your health, which is a long time in all but strong stalls, so the card is very, very costly. Adding more Vultures significantly reduces the cost, but this comes at a higher card cost and becomes increasingly difficult to actually pull off. The Rain of Fire might have you take 30 damage, but it will be saving you 30 damage every turn for the rest of the game, which "heals" in one turn. If you convert that to damage done (healing has approximately half the value of doing damage), it will take 2 turns to pay off at 15 damage done per turn.
Finally, Vulture has to be played in combination with other cards to make it useful. Rain of Fire is standalone.
To summarise all that:
| Rain of Fire | Vulture | 2 Vultures | Rain of Fire + 1 Vulture | Rain of Fire + 2 Vultures | |
| Cost (less damage taken) | 7 :underworld + 1 card ~= 9 :underworld | 3 :underworld + 1 card ~= 5 :underworld | 6 :underworld + 2 cards ~= 10 :underworld | 10 :underworld + 2 cards ~= 14 :underworld | 13 :underworld + 3 cards ~= 19 :underworld |
| Net gain | 5 cards ~= 10 :underworld | 6/7 for 3 :underworld ~= 3 :underworld | two 6/7 for 6 :underworld ~= 6 :underworld | 5 cards + 6/7 for 3 :underworld ~= 13 :underworld | 5 cards + two 6|7 for 6 :underworld ~= 16 :underworld |
| Extra damage done per turn | 30 healing ~= 15 damage | 6 damage | 12 damage | 30 healing + 6 damage ~= 21 damage | 30 healing + 12 damage ~= 27 damage |
| Turns taken to return the 30 damage | 2 | 5 | 2.5 | 1.4 | 1.1 |
| Cost effectiveness (gain/cost) | 1.1 | 0.6 | 0.6 | 1.3 | 1.23 |
| Requires combo? | Standalone card | Requires combo | Requires combo | Is combo | Is combo |
Rain of Fire is clearly
If you then consider how slow it can be, and the redundancy of Vulture in the CC + bonewall deck archetype because of the strength of Poison and Arsenic, it's pretty obvious that Vulture could do with a little Zanz love.
Post by: Eddygp on April 19, 2013, 09:25:45 pm
Post by: frimax on December 13, 2014, 04:03:02 pm
For God sake!!
Please, Just Make it immune to reverse time!!!!
REVERSE TIME = SAD FACE :(
Post by: omegareaper7 on December 13, 2014, 04:58:24 pm
Being immune to reverse time would make zero sense. Not to mention buffed creatures should never have an innate immunity to stuff like that.
For God sake!!
Please, Just Make it immune to reverse time!!!!
REVERSE TIME = SAD FACE :(
Post by: frimax on December 14, 2014, 01:28:00 am
What about turn it into another creature?
Condor is turned into a wyrm or pegasus if hit by reverse time. 90%.
Condor is turned into a dragon. 10%.
Post by: bossitron on December 14, 2014, 06:35:35 am
that doesn't even make sense
What about turn it into another creature?
Condor is turned into a wyrm or pegasus if hit by reverse time. 90%.
Condor is turned into a dragon. 10%.
Post by: Devourer on December 14, 2014, 09:21:12 am