Post by: killybob on January 10, 2011, 05:26:00 pm
this card is kinda crap. so what if it's immortal? rarely any of your opponents ever directly attack your base hp with spells and you can get far more profitable stuff for three times the amount. basically it has no real purpose and I wouldn't ever be tempted to spend 1.5k upping it. surely there is something better to have than that. maybe it could be to defend from damage or something or maybe blind your enemy on occasion.
anyway i really thing something better could be made of it. take emerald shield for example. it is immortal, defends from spells, and it prevents 1 damage from getting through. I know light already has a good shield (solar shield/buckler) going but so does life (thorn carapace plus emerald shied) and an extra one would give untold benefit such as new tactics and greater choice or range. anyway please buff this card.
Post by: OldTrees on January 10, 2011, 06:27:00 pm
Expensive cards are strong cards or they would be too inefficient.
Reflective shield is an inexpensive shield that stops Bolt OTK decks, delays Bolt finisher decks and partially blocks Unstable Gas.
Post by: killybob on January 10, 2011, 06:35:18 pm
Post by: OldTrees on January 10, 2011, 06:35:51 pm
hmm that's kind of a good point. you say PARTIALLY blocks gas? shouldn't it TOTALLY block it?It does not protect the creatures
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on January 10, 2011, 07:15:33 pm
The card itself is pretty good, it's usually just situational, unless you grab a bolt deck, in which case this card becomes a perfect addition. It's cheap, and allows you to get past your opponent's reflective shield (by targetting spells on yourself), and blocks the opponents' spells like UG (perfect if you expect it). No buff needed in my opinion.
Post by: xdude on January 10, 2011, 08:08:49 pm
Post by: OldTrees on January 10, 2011, 08:15:43 pm
So, this shield is no good unless the opponent plays ONLY UG's for damage and in the rest of the time it's completely useless? Fair enough... ::)Nay, it is good if they are foolish enough to use any UG or Bolts at a user of Light. (targeting creatures still would work). However I must admit that in your case Xdude the power of the threat of Reflective Shield is almost equal in strength to the actual shield itself. Hence your title protects you as if you had it in your deck without actually needing it.
Post by: Daytripper on January 10, 2011, 08:24:21 pm
This shield is very handy to flick in early in the game when you don't have quanta, or you can set up some kind of lock (aflatoxin) to prevent physical damage and then use it in the endgame, so no spell can finish you downright.
It is also a very solid backup shield in case your normal shield gets hit.
Good shield and easy to use in combination with FFQ, since the Jade shield is kind of heavy on life anyway.
Post by: RootRanger on January 11, 2011, 01:21:09 am
I agree with xdude. No matter how little of a quantum cost it has it takes up a spot in your deck. How often are you glad you drew this card? Most of the time you are playing a deck lacking in spell based elemental damage (bolts, UG, lightning). In those cases (nearly every game) you will have wished you drew a different card, or put a different one in your deck.
The reflective shield will only be worth the spot in your deck if you know what your opponent will bring, but this is not the case in PvP (cards are/should be balanced based on PvP performance).
If more people decide to use spell based elemental damage this card would become worth putting in your deck. However, despite the unpopularity of this card spell based elemental damage is uncommon. How many firestall and UG decks do you see in PvP? Personally I have seen only one in dozens of games. This card needs some sort of buff in order to become worth the spot in your deck it takes.
Post by: zse on January 11, 2011, 08:57:05 am
Before I continue this argument is about the unupped version; not the upped version of the card. I think the upped version is fine if compared to the solar shield.So what you're saying is that there is no good use for this card now. Emphasis on word now. If there were more spell damage & Gas decks going around, this card would be played much more.
I agree with xdude. No matter how little of a quantum cost it has it takes up a spot in your deck. How often are you glad you drew this card? Most of the time you are playing a deck lacking in spell based elemental damage (bolts, UG, lightning). In those cases (nearly every game) you will have wished you drew a different card, or put a different one in your deck.
The reflective shield will only be worth the spot in your deck if you know what your opponent will bring, but this is not the case in PvP (cards are/should be balanced based on PvP performance).
If more people decide to use spell based elemental damage this card would become worth putting in your deck. However, despite the unpopularity of this card spell based elemental damage is uncommon. How many firestall and UG decks do you see in PvP? Personally I have seen only one in dozens of games. This card needs some sort of buff in order to become worth the spot in your deck it takes.
Cards should be buffed only if they are weak in every way, and thus unused. Reflective Shield is perfectly fine card, that is nowhere near being weak when compared to let's say Skeleton. R.S. can be easily used in any deck with Novas, Immolations, Quantum Pillars, etc. and it can singlehandedly stop one deck archetype that's widely known, but currently underused. Name another card that has such powers. ???
Post by: xdude on January 11, 2011, 05:50:36 pm
Weak Mirror. Permanent, cost :light :light
Your opponent may now blow up his Unstable Gases.
Balanced, huh?
Rewind > Immo rush, Speedbow. And yet it's generally a weak card, ALMOST underpowered.Before I continue this argument is about the unupped version; not the upped version of the card. I think the upped version is fine if compared to the solar shield.So what you're saying is that there is no good use for this card now. Emphasis on word now. If there were more spell damage & Gas decks going around, this card would be played much more.
I agree with xdude. No matter how little of a quantum cost it has it takes up a spot in your deck. How often are you glad you drew this card? Most of the time you are playing a deck lacking in spell based elemental damage (bolts, UG, lightning). In those cases (nearly every game) you will have wished you drew a different card, or put a different one in your deck.
The reflective shield will only be worth the spot in your deck if you know what your opponent will bring, but this is not the case in PvP (cards are/should be balanced based on PvP performance).
If more people decide to use spell based elemental damage this card would become worth putting in your deck. However, despite the unpopularity of this card spell based elemental damage is uncommon. How many firestall and UG decks do you see in PvP? Personally I have seen only one in dozens of games. This card needs some sort of buff in order to become worth the spot in your deck it takes.
Cards should be buffed only if they are weak in every way, and thus unused. Reflective Shield is perfectly fine card, that is nowhere near being weak when compared to let's say Skeleton. R.S. can be easily used in any deck with Novas, Immolations, Quantum Pillars, etc. and it can singlehandedly stop one deck archetype that's widely known, but currently underused. Name another card that has such powers. ???
Now, we have another Gas-like card going on: Trebuchet. But guess what, apparently the Mirror Shield is too powerful, so it doesn't block Trebuchet. Also, comparing this to Skeletons is SUCH a low move. Of course there is a card weaker than this. So what? How does this prove anything?
Example: Bob's IQ is 2. Jack's IQ is 1. Obviously, Bob is not stupid, since Jack is more stupid. Wait wut?
Post by: Daytripper on January 11, 2011, 06:18:12 pm
In general I usually consider both versions, but indeed the unupped version is pretty bad. For all I care the unupped version can block 1 damage, if for a higher cost. (4 - 5 :light)
The problem is that makes it the same as the emerald/Jade shield, which is not the idea. So I don't see how you can fix it. Just upgrade it, if you want a cheap shield.
Post by: xdude on January 11, 2011, 06:21:41 pm
Let me say that the trebuchet does not do spell damage. It launches a creature, which is not a spell. If the Jade shield does block trebuchet, it would be a huge flaw.Ugh... 1 Damage just doesn't help upped. And the Solar Buckler is a much better alternative.
In general I usually consider both versions, but indeed the unupped version is pretty bad. For all I care the unupped version can block 1 damage, if for a higher cost. (4 - 5 :light)
The problem is that makes it the same as the emerald/Jade shield, which is not the idea. So I don't see how you can fix it. Just upgrade it, if you want a cheap shield.
Post by: Daytripper on January 11, 2011, 06:31:08 pm
Mark my words, my blinding or heat fatigue suggestion for a light shield was not so bad after all. :))
Post by: xdude on January 11, 2011, 06:39:24 pm
No doubt that is the case for you, but you can use the upped version in a duo light/death aflatoxin deck or in a rainbow deck. If the opponent has no attack other than spells, best is to block the spells.Fine. Unless you're using it in a rainbow (why would you, when you have Fog?) or in a Lancer (only to counter an eventual Mirror from the other player, doesn't make the shield look any better), you're gonna use it in a deck which needs more than 10 Light quanta. And then, Solar Buckler is better for you.
Mark my words, my blinding or heat fatigue suggestion for a light shield was not so bad after all. :))
Post by: Daytripper on January 11, 2011, 06:55:16 pm
The solar buckler has no built in protection. It's the shield you would use in a typical light deck. Generate quanta, fuel miracle and such. That's all very nice but not everybody plays typical light decks. After all light has 3 shields! What about hope? This is associated with aether/light duo. Why can't the reflective be a typical rainbow/duo shield?
Post by: zse on January 11, 2011, 07:19:49 pm
Let's reword the card text a little, shall we?This topic is about Reflective Shield. Not Mirror Shield. Reflective Shield stops many more cards than just Unstable Gas, and you know that. So start acting like A COUNCIL MEMBER AND MASTER OF LIGHT not like a 15 year old noob troll.
Weak Mirror. Permanent, cost :light :light
Your opponent may now blow up his Unstable Gases.
Balanced, huh?
Rewind > Immo rush, Speedbow. And yet it's generally a weak card, ALMOST underpowered.Before I continue this argument is about the unupped version; not the upped version of the card. I think the upped version is fine if compared to the solar shield.So what you're saying is that there is no good use for this card now. Emphasis on word now. If there were more spell damage & Gas decks going around, this card would be played much more.
I agree with xdude. No matter how little of a quantum cost it has it takes up a spot in your deck. How often are you glad you drew this card? Most of the time you are playing a deck lacking in spell based elemental damage (bolts, UG, lightning). In those cases (nearly every game) you will have wished you drew a different card, or put a different one in your deck.
The reflective shield will only be worth the spot in your deck if you know what your opponent will bring, but this is not the case in PvP (cards are/should be balanced based on PvP performance).
If more people decide to use spell based elemental damage this card would become worth putting in your deck. However, despite the unpopularity of this card spell based elemental damage is uncommon. How many firestall and UG decks do you see in PvP? Personally I have seen only one in dozens of games. This card needs some sort of buff in order to become worth the spot in your deck it takes.
Cards should be buffed only if they are weak in every way, and thus unused. Reflective Shield is perfectly fine card, that is nowhere near being weak when compared to let's say Skeleton. R.S. can be easily used in any deck with Novas, Immolations, Quantum Pillars, etc. and it can singlehandedly stop one deck archetype that's widely known, but currently underused. Name another card that has such powers. ???
...
[/quote]So playing 1 Rewind has same effect on Immo rush or Speedbow than playing Reflective Shield agains Fire Bolt Rush, or Devourer Life Drain? :)) ^-^ :P :)) ;D You can't be serious. :)) :P :))
Post by: QuantumT on January 11, 2011, 07:36:26 pm
That said, I don't think that solely blocking direct damage is really going to be enough to justify multiple slots in a deck. However, I also can't think of a good way to buff it.
Post by: willng3 on January 11, 2011, 08:02:23 pm
Post by: zse on January 11, 2011, 08:36:55 pm
Post by: xdude on January 11, 2011, 09:00:53 pm
BwahahahahahahaLet's reword the card text a little, shall we?This topic is about Reflective Shield. Not Mirror Shield. Reflective Shield stops many more cards than just Unstable Gas, and you know that. So start acting like A COUNCIL MEMBER AND MASTER OF LIGHT not like a 15 year old noob troll.
Weak Mirror. Permanent, cost :light :light
Your opponent may now blow up his Unstable Gases.
Balanced, huh?
Ok,
Weak Reflector. Permanent. Cost :light
Your opponent may not blow up his UG's.
Happy now? Seriosly. show me a good unupped deck, excepting the UG one, which this shield helps against.
Post by: QuantumT on January 11, 2011, 09:10:11 pm
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Post by: zse on January 11, 2011, 10:24:17 pm
Fat :darkness version of bolt deck.
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5l8 5l8 5lg 5li 5li 5li 5li 5li 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uo 5uo 5uo 5up 5up 5up 5up 5us 5us 5us 5us 5us 5us
Post by: LongDono on January 12, 2011, 12:01:23 am
Post by: RootRanger on January 12, 2011, 02:22:41 am
I believe cards are made to play against AI or other players, but it must atleast be balanced against the AI. That said this card is more for use against the AI than anything else.Cards should be balanced for PvP. If a card is weak against the AI, then the computer decks can altered to allow the card to become useful. If a card is weak in PvP, zanz cannot decide what decks your opponents use in PvP. Also, having more viable cards allows for a deeper metagame and more viable decks. Against AI, however, there is no metagame because the AI decks do not change based on what cards players use. Increasing the amount of viable cards to use against the AI will barely increase the amount of viable decks because the AI will use the same decks every time.
Post by: LongDono on January 12, 2011, 04:47:15 am
Besides just because a card was made to favor AI over PvP play dose not mean it is pointless to use in PvP, with good deck building just about any card in this game can be put to good PvP use.
Post by: RootRanger on January 12, 2011, 04:56:41 am
The card is not pointless in PvP; it will occasionally have a use. Having such an uncommon use prevents it from being worth using in PvP play. It would not be a wise decision to put this in a PvP deck; thus, it needs a buff.
Post by: OldTrees on January 12, 2011, 05:03:49 am
Post by: DSSCRA on January 12, 2011, 05:29:54 am
Maybe I missed something but did it kill out the Fire Bolt OTK deck or did that deck die to something else? If Reflective Shield killed a deck from unupped PvP then is it not not UP? (< not a typo)It doesn't really kill them because they can just toss in a Reflective Shield and a Nova then to otk they throw down the reflective shield and target themselves.
Also that allows then to toss in a sun dial to mostly make up for those additions.
Post by: xdude on January 12, 2011, 08:31:24 am
Post by: QuantumT on January 12, 2011, 10:50:48 am
QuanntumT, Zse, how do those 2 subpar decks that can't be countered by Reflective Shield prove that Reflective Shield is useful against anything but itself and UG's?To be honest, I was trying to be a bit funny with the deck that I chose (did you note the deck maker ;) ). A bit more seriously, it would help against a drain life devourtal or a fire stall, both of which I think are reasonably strong decks.
Post by: OldTrees on January 12, 2011, 03:45:24 pm
QuanntumT, Zse, how do those 2 subpar decks that can't be countered by Reflective Shield prove that Reflective Shield is useful against anything but itself and UG's?Reflective Shield really does cost too little (1 :light, 1draw, 1card slot) to be able to outright counter a deck. It should and is advantageous in that it negates, on average, a part of the opponents offense
Post by: xdude on January 12, 2011, 04:54:36 pm
Yes, I know it's a deck used by Light. The thing is the deck works better when it's bigger, and as a decker.QuanntumT, Zse, how do those 2 subpar decks that can't be countered by Reflective Shield prove that Reflective Shield is useful against anything but itself and UG's?To be honest, I was trying to be a bit funny with the deck that I chose (did you note the deck maker ;) ). A bit more seriously, it would help against a drain life devourtal or a fire stall, both of which I think are reasonably strong decks.
The thing is, if you're using a deck with only bolts to win, the deck is not good. Most bolters are either deckers, or have other means of dealing damage too, and thus the Reflector doesn't really help. The point is this card is as situational as the old HL, meaning that if you dont' know for sure it will help, there's no need to use it. 1 Damage Block would help (and switch the cost of the upped with the unupped)
Post by: zse on January 12, 2011, 06:21:39 pm
The point is this card is as situational as the old HL, meaning that if you dont' know for sure it will help, there's no need to use it. 1 Damage Block would help (and switch the cost of the upped with the unupped)We already have that, that card is called Emerald Shield and it costs 5 :life!
Now you want to get that same card for just 2 :light... :)) ^-^ :P ;D :))
Well I'll stop here, too much troll feeding for my likes.
Post by: xdude on January 12, 2011, 06:45:54 pm
OK... so you're suggesting that the 1 damage blocked difference between Reflective and Emerald is worth 4 quanta? Ugh, right... Emerald shield is just as UP, compared to cards like Ice Shield, or Dusk Mantle. If you have no point to make rather than insulting me at an infantile level, please stop posting. Ever.The point is this card is as situational as the old HL, meaning that if you dont' know for sure it will help, there's no need to use it. 1 Damage Block would help (and switch the cost of the upped with the unupped)We already have that, that card is called Emerald Shield and it costs 5 :life!
Now you want to get that same card for just 2 :light... :)) ^-^ :P ;D :))
Well I'll stop here, too much troll feeding for my likes.
Post by: killybob on January 12, 2011, 07:12:27 pm
Post by: OldTrees on January 12, 2011, 07:17:22 pm
Emerald shield is just as UP, compared to cards like Ice Shield, or Dusk Mantle.I see, so you feel that the shields should all be power players like the intent behind weapons. I am curious, which shields do you find to be par for the course (Ice Shield, Dusk Mantle ...) and which fall below par in your opinion?
I am trying to learn from your considerable in game experience and translate it to balance theories.
On Topic: I think having Reflective Shield changed to be +1 cost from Mirror Shield would be balanced and satisfy most.
Post by: xdude on January 12, 2011, 08:09:09 pm
The problem with balancing shields is that there are only a few of them, and many are different to eachother. But I find it wrong that both Ice Shield and Emerald Shield at the same cost, simply due to PC prevention. And yes, I find your solution great.Emerald shield is just as UP, compared to cards like Ice Shield, or Dusk Mantle.I see, so you feel that the shields should all be power players like the intent behind weapons. I am curious, which shields do you find to be par for the course (Ice Shield, Dusk Mantle ...) and which fall below par in your opinion?
I am trying to learn from your considerable in game experience and translate it to balance theories.
On Topic: I think having Reflective Shield changed to be +1 cost from Mirror Shield would be balanced and satisfy most.
Post by: Daytripper on January 13, 2011, 04:35:16 pm
We all know where this is going. Reflective shield or skull buckler are not particularely useful, certainly not unupped. (I think mirror shield is really good actually.) Something so cheap cannot really be UP though. This shield has 2 abilities, immaterial and reflection for 1 :light. Add one :light and it blocks 1 damage. No shield can do that. 2/3 :light per ability.
I would suggest a burf rather than a buff.
Post by: QuantumT on January 14, 2011, 08:45:22 am
Post by: zse on January 14, 2011, 10:14:43 am
How about this as a potential change? Increase it's cost to 2 or 3 :light , make it block 1, but remove the indestructible part. This seems like a decent solution it would retain its original function, make it semi useful as an actual shield, but not make it strictly better than emerald shield.The whole point of using this card is to block gigantic Fire Bolt or Drain Life. Removing the Anti-Destruct/Steal ability would totally ruin that strategy by making it targetable for Deflagration/Steal. Really bad idea in my opinion.
:light already has Solar Shield for cheap damage blocking shield. There's no need to add another one for same element.
I repeat my solution for this dilemma, (my old quote bit modified):
if it should be altered, I'd like to see it gaining more reflective abilities with spells or spell-like effects AND changing it to :aether element.
In other words reflecting all these spells and spell-like-effects to opponent: Bolts, Drain Life, Gas, Poison, Catapult, Silence, Vampire Dagger, Stone Skin, Discord, Black Hole, Holy Ligft, Luciferin, Miracle, Precognition.
Meaning you can't be targeted by those spells - even if you're casting them by yourself (Luciferin, Miracle & Stone Skin).
Post by: smuglapse on January 14, 2011, 08:15:21 pm
So, it's highly situational, like the old Purify was, and probably deserves a similar buff to add usability.
Though, do people actually use Purify more, now?
Post by: MXXE on January 16, 2011, 06:24:34 pm
This card is a debuff masquerading as a shield: " :light : The opponent's Jade Shield no longer reflects".I was just gonna say the same thing. We have to compare the problem with this shield with other problems.
So, it's highly situational, like the old Purify was, and probably deserves a similar buff to add usability.
Though, do people actually use Purify more, now?
Actually I think with the "Buff this Card" and "Nerf this card" there should be a "Change this card" section. The problem is not that it is unbalanced but that it is situational.
*optional section of this post start*
If you look only at balance you see this: Against some decks (Fractal devourers+drain life, fire bolting, unstable gas) this card is an instant win. Instant win = 100 won games in 100 played succes. How often do you meet those decks? I say, maybe 5% of your games will be those instant wins, another 5% are firebolters but have their own mirror shield hidden somewhere. Assuming that playing a single shield in a deck is a hard thing to do I say 75 won games per 100 played there. Against every thing else (90%) the succes rate of the shield is 0. This makes: 5%*100g+5%*75g+90%*0g = 8.75 games won with this card. Now I want to compare it with the procastination: Since it costs 6 times as many quanta, I multiply the games won with 6 as well. Result: 52.5 games should be won by placing procastination. Seems balanced as procastination blocks half the damage and half the creature-abilites.
But how is procastinations percentage composed? Against decks with growth it is average (40% with 50g). Against decks that produce creatures (FFQ, Pharaoth, maybe even fallen druid) it is quite good (30% with 75g). Against pure damage dealers (a vanilla creatures + dragon deck) it is probably the worst (25% with 30g). Add momentum (5% with 5 games won). Equals 50.25 games won out of 100.
Not only is it balanced in comparison to other cards, it is also balanced through multiple different games because the difference between max. and min. games won is 45 here, not 100.
*optional section of this post end*
I think (despite me making up most of these numbers) that some people will agree that the card is perfectly balanced, but goes to much in the direction of being a hard counter to few decks.
This is why we should follow the exaple of purify and give it some out-of-what-it-now-does usability, somethink like "heals you for 2HP whenever the opponent plays a spell (plus reflection)" for :light :light
Post by: RootRanger on January 16, 2011, 07:16:22 pm
Every card has a cost. Logically, you can deduce that the cost of a draw > the cost of 2 quantum. With a golden hourglass, drawing one card costs 2 quantum. You also have the cost of the hourglass originally, which means the average draw will always cost more than 2 quantum. Basically, cards of one quantum cost have at least 3/8 the actual cost of cards of six quantum cost. This is why decks with low QIs are not very good; even free cards have a cost (one draw).
The cost of the reflective shield is not enough to be worth using.
Post by: killybob on January 16, 2011, 09:47:56 pm
unfortunately my poll has not resolved anything as it's still at 50/50.
Post by: godofdeath500 on January 17, 2011, 03:17:14 am
See, guys? The reason this topic is 50/50 is because this shield is fine as it is. Buffing it would make it too OP, because there is Emerald/Jade Shield, and that already blocks 1/2 damage, respectively. Reflective Shield is a cheap alternative to Emerald.
Post by: RootRanger on January 17, 2011, 05:36:21 am
People, :light has three shields. Solar buckler, Mirror Shield, and Hope. If you ask me, I think that you should remove Mirror and add reflect to Hope. Or is that too OP?So you should make a card OP and delete a card entirely because light has more shields than another element.
Well, fire has 3 CC spells and light has none. Should we combine two of fire's spells into one and remove one of them?
See, guys? The reason this topic is 50/50 is because this shield is fine as it is.Few cards have 50% of the voters wanting to buff it.
Buffing it would make it too OP,Many cards have been buffed and not become OP. If this is buffed properly, it will not be OP.
because there is Emerald/Jade Shield, and that already blocks 1/2 damage, respectively. Reflective Shield is a cheap alternative to Emerald.I don't see why you are bringing in the Jade Shield. None or few of the advocates for buffing the Reflective Shield want the Mirror Shield buffed as well. It is not a good idea to compare upgraded cards to unupped cards when balancing.
Reflective Shield
- Blocks Spells
- Immaterial
- Cost of 1 quantum plus 1 draw
Emerald Shield
- Blocks 1 damage
- Blocks Spells
- Immaterial
- Cost of 5 quantum plus 1 draw
First off, being immaterial magnifies importance and strength instead of adding to it. The stronger something is, the more important its immortality is. Next, blocking 1 damage should be more than 1.33 times as much as blocking spells. You see physical damage far more often than damage from spells. While the shield is very useful against damage from spells, the physical damage is far more common and outweighs that factor. Now, you have cost. I explained eariler that the cost of a draw > the cost of 2 quantum.
Thus, the cost of the emerald shield < 2.33 * the cost of the reflective shield. Which means that the value of the emerald shield < 2.33 * the value of the reflective shield. This is not the case, and below is my argument for that.
Value of the emerald shield = Immortality * (Blocking 1 Damage + Blocking Spells)
Value of the reflective shield = Immortality * (Blocking Spells)
The value of the immortality cancels, and you use the theory that the value blocking 1 damage should be more than 1.33 times as much as the value of blocking spells. Now you have the following.
Value of the emerald shield > 2.33 * The value of the reflective shield. So if the value of blocking 1 damage is more than 1.33 times as much as the value of blocking spells, either the emerald shield is OP or the reflective shield is UP.
Post by: Uppercut on January 17, 2011, 05:58:05 am
Post by: MXXE on January 17, 2011, 09:39:13 pm
There is no way this shield will make you win 8.75% more games. Your statistics are flawed.I know, I even mentioned that. But it doesn't change my point
Every card has a cost. Logically, you can deduce that the cost of a draw > the cost of 2 quantum. With a golden hourglass, drawing one card costs 2 quantum.I have no problem with balance. If someone thinks it is OP, I agree, it is OP against unstable gas. Solution: make it cost more or not immaterial or both.
If someone thinks it is UP, I agree, it is UP against spell-less decks. Solution: Make it free to cast. Make it return the card slot/draw by adding "When you play this card, draw a card"
My point is that it is a hard counter to ONLY UG, and a too soft counter to bolts.
Btw:
see this guy makes good points.Who did you mean?
Post by: memimemi on May 06, 2012, 09:24:22 pm
http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/cards-life/emerald-shield-jade-shield/ (http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/cards-life/emerald-shield-jade-shield/)
Seeing as:
1) Fire Bolt / Ice Bolt are rarely used for direct damage anyways;
2) Both shields, when they block damage at all, do so less efficiently than Shield | Tower Shield (2 :rainbow | 5 :rainbow);
and
3) Neither shield actually reflects the spells that are most commonly used, targeting the player (BH, Silence, Poison, Purify);
I propose that both shields are made to reflect any spell that targets the player directly.
As a balancing measure, I would suggest removing either the protection on the shields, or the damage reduction they provide, if any balancing is actually required.
With SoW in the environment now, I think it only right to have another look at these shields, and make them viable additions to more decks.
Post by: teffy on May 06, 2012, 09:28:18 pm
However, it´s still a bit weak.
Post by: omegareaper7 on May 06, 2012, 09:47:19 pm
http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/cards-light/reflective-shield-mirror-shield/ (http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/cards-light/reflective-shield-mirror-shield/)Only purify actually targets. the rest are generic.
http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/cards-life/emerald-shield-jade-shield/ (http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/cards-life/emerald-shield-jade-shield/)
Seeing as:
1) Fire Bolt / Ice Bolt are rarely used for direct damage anyways;
2) Both shields, when they block damage at all, do so less efficiently than Shield | Tower Shield (2 :rainbow | 5 :rainbow);
and
3) Neither shield actually reflects the spells that are most commonly used, targeting the player (BH, Silence, Poison, Purify);
I propose that both shields are made to reflect any spell that targets the player directly.
As a balancing measure, I would suggest removing either the protection on the shields, or the damage reduction they provide, if any balancing is actually required.
With SoW in the environment now, I think it only right to have another look at these shields, and make them viable additions to more decks.
Post by: radioactivetiger on May 06, 2012, 09:52:13 pm
Post by: UnderneathTheLens on May 06, 2012, 09:53:44 pm
Personally, I would LOVE if mirror and jade shield reflected poison
I feel like reflecting poison would be too much.
Post by: radioactivetiger on May 06, 2012, 09:56:25 pm
Post by: bogtro on May 07, 2012, 12:28:11 am
As it stands now, it is very situational and barely used at all. SoW was a very small buff to this card, and not enough for it to see any real playtime.
Post by: Drake_XIV on May 07, 2012, 12:37:54 am
Post by: memimemi on May 07, 2012, 11:37:58 am
IMO, should reflect harmful spells. This includes Poison, Silence, Nightmare, etc.
As it stands now, it is very situational and barely used at all. SoW was a very small buff to this card, and not enough for it to see any real playtime.
My point, exactly. After all, all these shields block is Ice Bolt and Fire Bolt. Blocking the Poison spell would, IMO, be automatically balanced by also blocking Purify. Also, Life and Light should both, as far as I know, have ways of protecting quanta from BH. After all, Sanctuary is a thing - but a single slow counter to a widely-abused spell is hardly enough. Abusing SoW requires at least a 3-card combo (quint, SoW, Mirror Shield, or Anubis, SoW, and SoR or Aether Pillars with MS), so there`s little to no danger of that becoming OP.
The only possible downside would be SoSe players reflecting poison at themselves and reflecting Purify away. And that requires using a valuable card slot for MS to block Purify, and the opponent providing one to bounce poison - not too likely a scenario.
Please, anyone who can, buff these cards!
edit: Nightmare targets a creature, not a player, and so should not be blocked. Sanctuary needs to keep its special place in blocking hand manipulation.
Post by: Guizonde on May 07, 2012, 12:16:02 pm
i'd say keep their weak DR and reflect all spells, including heal. that way, you gotta choose between not getting hit by a huge fireball and using miracle to save your bacon... look at the jade shield: 5 :life and 1DR, or 7:life for DR 2 the cost is huge, but fair.
maybe give the reflective shield 1DR and just have a cost reduction upped... at least it would see more use...
Post by: Aneninen on May 12, 2012, 09:49:37 am
On the other hand, Mirror Shield s-cks. Sure, compared to Emerald Shield the latter one is insane expensive (2 :light / 5 :life ) - which means Emerald Shield should cost a bit less. But it's hard to imagine a deck which really needs Mirror Shield, while Jade Shield is a fine addition to a Life Mono/Duo deck. A Rainbow deck can chose way better shields, even cheap ones (eg. Fog Shield), a Light deck can chose Hope or Solar Shield instead, except against Shard of Wisdom, both are more useful.
My idea: how about joining the abilities of Solar and Mirror Shields? Reduces one damage, reflects spells, can't be destroyed or stolen AND converts 1 damage from each attack to :light ? After all, Light already has 3 kind of Shields, one less won't hurt. Cost? I think, 5 :light - 3 :light if upgraded (no other changes via upgrading.)
Post by: Jenkar on May 12, 2012, 09:53:46 am
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on May 12, 2012, 12:35:00 pm
It reduces 1 or 2 damage, reflects damage dealing spells against the opponent and cannot be destroyed or stolen, what else do you want?
Post by: AquaticImpalement on May 13, 2012, 06:43:41 am
Post by: POB_123 on May 26, 2012, 01:39:24 am
Reflect all spell effects(not damage)/ make player non-targetable. Don't know what element it could be (perhaps other).
How does that sound?
Post by: memimemi on May 26, 2012, 12:18:45 pm
I don't really think either of these need a buff. Nor a Nerf. The cards are almost exactly as they should be. The only change that would be made is blocking ALL offensive spells, not just Firebolt and Icebolt. They're cheap and moderately effective, except for Emerald shield. Emerald shield costs more, but then, it also blocks damage, so, as ARTHANASIOS said, "What else do you want?"
I agree that Emerald is pretty good, but still think that all spells targeting the player, both helpful and harmful, should be reflected. Imagine the change to the meta, if a single mirror shield reflects poison - it would force mono :death to diversify a little. Arsenic would still get through, but :death would have to use creatures now and then, instead of just poison+SoSac. Imagine what would happen to DBH decks, if BH were reflected. In fact, think about almost any of the decks that people think are OP (other than GhostMare), which would need serious re-imagining with just this one small change.
Instead of having to nerf a variety of cards to balance out the tired, cliche archetypes we see all the time (I'm guilty of using them, too, 'cause they WORK, dammit!), just buffing Mirror Shield would have nearly the same effect. :light needs some love, anyways, IMHO.
Post by: Toxx on May 27, 2012, 06:11:51 am
Post by: jacker on May 27, 2012, 09:08:23 am
Post by: Annele on May 27, 2012, 09:16:33 am
Same here, reflective shield should be able to reflect other spells that implicitly target, like silence, poison, black hole and so on
Agreed, especially as Unstable Gas is already reflected.
On the other hand, having a shield that reflects Silence and Black Hole in the element of Sanc is iffy.
Post by: memimemi on May 27, 2012, 12:33:11 pm
Same here, reflective shield should be able to reflect other spells that implicitly target, like silence, poison, black hole and so on
Agreed, especially as Unstable Gas is already reflected.
On the other hand, having a shield that reflects Silence and Black Hole in the element of Sanc is iffy.
How so? Redundancy isn't uncommon - how many damage-based CC options are there for :fire? :water has Permafrost Shield, Congeal, and Arctic Octopus - redundancy.
Reflecting Black Hole and Silence make sense to me in :light, because it's the Element with Sanctuary.
Post by: Atico on May 28, 2012, 02:36:11 pm
Same here, reflective shield should be able to reflect other spells that implicitly target, like silence, poison, black hole and so on
Agreed, especially as Unstable Gas is already reflected.
On the other hand, having a shield that reflects Silence and Black Hole in the element of Sanc is iffy.
As I wrote in other topic: JadeShield shouldn't reflect UG (it isn't a spell) but should reflect BH, Poison, Silence etc. We should change this or change card text, because now text is different than ability.
Post by: Annele on May 29, 2012, 04:08:56 am
Same here, reflective shield should be able to reflect other spells that implicitly target, like silence, poison, black hole and so on
Agreed, especially as Unstable Gas is already reflected.
On the other hand, having a shield that reflects Silence and Black Hole in the element of Sanc is iffy.
As I wrote in other topic: JadeShield shouldn't reflect UG (it isn't a spell) but should reflect BH, Poison, Silence etc. We should change this or change card text, because now text is different than ability.
Actually, UG's 'skill' of explode is actually a spell, just the same as Physila's poison.
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on May 29, 2012, 08:05:29 am
Post by: Atico on May 29, 2012, 08:26:50 am
Same here, reflective shield should be able to reflect other spells that implicitly target, like silence, poison, black hole and so on
Agreed, especially as Unstable Gas is already reflected.
On the other hand, having a shield that reflects Silence and Black Hole in the element of Sanc is iffy.
As I wrote in other topic: JadeShield shouldn't reflect UG (it isn't a spell) but should reflect BH, Poison, Silence etc. We should change this or change card text, because now text is different than ability.
Actually, UG's 'skill' of explode is actually a spell, just the same as Physila's poison.
So when I have Hourglass and JadeShield then card should be draw for opponent, not for me?
What is more - there is no logic in Your opinion, because "spell" from UG is reflected, but "spell" from Phylasia no.
Post by: Annele on May 29, 2012, 08:35:10 am
Oh, come on guys! If these two shields reflect EVERY kind of spell (Silence, Poison, Black Hole etc.) they would become totally broken and no one would play any other shield any more. There is not any global Spell Counter in this game and IMO there shouldn't be. They already reflect damage dealing spells and creatures buffed with Shard of Wisdom suffer greatly due to these shields, why should we buff them to hell?
If you put it like that...
Post by: jawdirk on June 11, 2012, 03:40:27 am
So here is a proposal: Make a new attribute (like flying) called "magical" spread it liberally over all the existing creatures (fire spirit, forest spirit, most dragons, most weapons, etc.). Magical creatures do half physical damage (rounded up) and half spell damage (rounded down) if they hit. So they are still fully blocked by physical shields, but also partially reflected by reflective/mirror shield and emerald shield.
Post by: Xamuel on June 11, 2012, 04:33:38 am
Here's a little food for thought.. want a cheap :aether- :light duo version of Antimatter? Throw a quintessence on the enemy's creature and then hit it with Shard of Wisdom, while holding a mirror shield... (well, not antimatter precisely, it'll hurt them instead of heal you, semantics semantics)
Edit: Soon as I wrote in this thread that I hadn't gotten a single SoW, I got my first one from a normal spin in bronze :o
Post by: bobknows on June 11, 2012, 05:33:35 am
Post by: furballdn on June 11, 2012, 05:35:25 am
As there are currently only 2 counters to CC(quint and sofr) maybe we could give it a sofr-like effect. 25% chance to eeflect CC to the opponents side of the fieldWhat? No! That'd be a way too big buff for them. Besides, you're using the shield to protect yourself, it's not that huge as to cover your entire field.
Post by: bobknows on June 11, 2012, 05:38:38 am
But how about this, many shields block 1(2upped) damage in addition to their effect. So, buff damage blocked by one?
Post by: furballdn on June 11, 2012, 05:49:19 am
Ok, bad idea.You'd need a heavy cost raise.
But how about this, many shields block 1(2upped) damage in addition to their effect. So, buff damage blocked by one?
Mirror shield would be 1dr+reflect for 1 :light and 2dr+reflect for 2 :light
while jade/emerald would be 2dr+reflect for 5 :life and 3dr+reflect for 7 :life completely shaming diamond|titanium shield and permafrost and the others.
Post by: bobknows on June 11, 2012, 06:08:31 am
And yes, mirror might cost 3-4, but i think +1 dr would let it see more use.
Post by: furballdn on June 11, 2012, 06:53:03 pm
Sorry, completely missed that jade already reducs damage.4 :light for 2dr and spell reflect? Sounds like quite a deal to me.
And yes, mirror might cost 3-4, but i think +1 dr would let it see more use.
Post by: bobknows on June 11, 2012, 08:18:50 pm
Post by: jawdirk on June 12, 2012, 03:27:53 am
Here's a little food for thought.. want a cheap :aether- :light duo version of Antimatter? Throw a quintessence on the enemy's creature and then hit it with Shard of Wisdom, while holding a mirror shield... (well, not antimatter precisely, it'll hurt them instead of heal you, semantics semantics)
I've tried to make a deck that does this, but it ends up being too many cards to be reliable. The problem is that the shield is useless without the quint + shard. The shard is only useful by itself if you use immortal creatures, and the quint is only useful by itself if you don't. I tried to use anubis instead of quint, but there is not really enough room in the deck to reliably get the combo out. That makes shard useful only offensively (in competitive decks), as far as I can tell.
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on June 12, 2012, 08:49:49 am
Here's a little food for thought.. want a cheap :aether- :light duo version of Antimatter? Throw a quintessence on the enemy's creature and then hit it with Shard of Wisdom, while holding a mirror shield... (well, not antimatter precisely, it'll hurt them instead of heal you, semantics semantics)
I've tried to make a deck that does this, but it ends up being too many cards to be reliable. The problem is that the shield is useless without the quint + shard. The shard is only useful by itself if you use immortal creatures, and the quint is only useful by itself if you don't. I tried to use anubis instead of quint, but there is not really enough room in the deck to reliably get the combo out. That makes shard useful only offensively (in competitive decks), as far as I can tell.
Everyone who is interested in these type of decks can take a look here:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,39468.0.html
Post by: Totila on June 13, 2012, 08:06:36 pm
Post by: Asinickle on June 14, 2012, 07:34:48 pm
Just about every other shield offers some amazing damage protection. Like, amazing amazing. These two shields don't.
Post by: esran on June 27, 2012, 03:16:27 am
explanation: this card is one of the most situational cards in the game. the unupped especially only protects from direct damage spells cast on the owner. i believe it needs a berf to make it less situational, and also to not completely hard counter bolt decks.
this is my first buff this card topic so bear with me.
i will add a poll once some other poeple give ideas, so its not just a vote between my idea and no buff.
my idea is actually a berf, however its a buffy berf
unupped: increase cost by 1 and give it one damage resistance.
both: remove untargetable.
plus one of the following for both:
1. add a bonewall style PC resist where unupped takes 2 PCs to remove and upped takes 3.
2. add a bonewall style effect with about 8 counters(upped would have more than unupped) where a PC or it resisting spell damage remove a counter. consider some sort of way of restoring these counters though i havent thought of one.
this needs more balancing but i think if someone helped me balance it like that it would make reflective shield a better card that isn't as situational or hating.
edit: picture and explanation added.
ok fine ill add a pole, i just wanted input first.
Post by: Drake_XIV on June 27, 2012, 03:23:34 am
1. Pick a card that you think is weak and needs buffing (you can only pick ones that haven't been already picked)
2. Start a new topic where you include a picture of that card and a short explanation on why you think this card needs a buff, and how it should be buffed.
3. Add a poll that says something like: "How do you think this card should be buffed?". Poll options could look something like this:
- "The card is perfect. It should NOT be buffed".
- "The card needs a minor buff -> *insert buff here"
- "The card needs a medium buff -> *insert buff here"
- "The card needs a major buff -> *insert buff here"
- "The card should be totally changed or removed from the game
So, why do you think it needs to be "berfed"?
Post by: esran on June 27, 2012, 04:43:07 am
2 :light|1 :lightso poll option number 2 but also a decrease to the upped cost. i like that. i wish there was a way to get this added to the game.
Shield: reduce damage by 1. Ignores the first 2 effects. Reflective.
Post by: OldTrees on June 28, 2012, 05:01:52 pm
Why would the game benefit from Reflective Shield being berfed?1. Pick a card that you think is weak and needs buffing (you can only pick ones that haven't been already picked)
2. Start a new topic where you include a picture of that card and a short explanation on why you think this card needs a buff, and how it should be buffed.
3. Add a poll that says something like: "How do you think this card should be buffed?". Poll options could look something like this:
- "The card is perfect. It should NOT be buffed".
- "The card needs a minor buff -> *insert buff here"
- "The card needs a medium buff -> *insert buff here"
- "The card needs a major buff -> *insert buff here"
- "The card should be totally changed or removed from the game
So, why do you think it needs to be "berfed"?
Reflective Shield is a hard counter that cannot be evaded except by itself. It caused the extinction of bolt only deck leaving only bolt hybrids (Fire Stall). This shrank the metagame. If Reflective Shield count be altered then this shrinkage can be reversed.
Reflective Shield is considered weak against non bolt decks. Buffing it against non bolt decks would give it more use (less situational).
Since there is reason for both a nerf and a buff in separate areas of the card, there is reason for a berf.
Post by: FlareGlutox on June 28, 2012, 05:15:45 pm
It could be changed to not reflect the spell damage, but return it (while for the buff part it would get more creature damage protection as well). The way elements is coded now, if the initial damage will be a killing blow, the returned damage does not trigger at all. Thoughts?
Post by: memimemi on June 28, 2012, 05:41:35 pm
It would also make for a slight buff to Holy Light, with the newly added synergy.
Just a thought.
Post by: esran on June 28, 2012, 07:00:45 pm
IMO if we implement option 3 spell damage would nto be reflected, just blocked, but for option 2 it could still reflect the damage. anyone elses thought?
Post by: memimemi on June 28, 2012, 07:16:00 pm
@memimemi, that might work but it would make reflective shield be pretty much immune to PC, because restoring 10 counters is a ton.
IMO if we implement option 3 spell damage would nto be reflected, just blocked, but for option 2 it could still reflect the damage. anyone elses thought?
Holy Light could only restore 10 counters if Reflective|Mirror Shield had 10 counters to start with. If, however, it only had 2-4 of them, I don't think that would be OP at all - especially in a SoF-heavy metagame.
Post by: esran on June 28, 2012, 07:22:53 pm
Post by: OldTrees on June 28, 2012, 07:27:42 pm
Since most of the berfing options in the poll revolve around nerfing its PC resistance, I'd like to give another option for consideration:DR 1|1
It could be changed to not reflect the spell damage, but return it (while for the buff part it would get more creature damage protection as well). The way elements is coded now, if the initial damage will be a killing blow, the returned damage does not trigger at all. Thoughts?
Cost 2 :light|1 :light
Immaterial
Return spell damage
Post by: esran on June 28, 2012, 07:50:35 pm
Post by: rosutosefi on June 29, 2012, 12:53:38 am
Do people really want light to be the element of specific card hate?
Post by: OldTrees on June 29, 2012, 12:58:35 am
Reflective Shield is perfectly fine as is ؟I am not able to determine if you are for or against a berf.
Do people really want light to be the element of specific card hate?
I support a berf to move light away from being the element of specific card hate.
Post by: esran on June 29, 2012, 03:00:12 am
Post by: rosutosefi on June 29, 2012, 07:35:29 am
I support a berf. The number of people voting "perfectly fine as is" is disappointing. They could have at least stated a reason, because I need some points to argue with...Reflective Shield is perfectly fine as is ؟I am not able to determine if you are for or against a berf.
Do people really want light to be the element of specific card hate?
I support a berf to move light away from being the element of specific card hate.
if you will note, every option on my poll except not changing it aattempts to stop reflective shield from hating. if you have a different suggestion, then i will add it to pull. as oldtree says, this is a berf thread not a buff thread, and i personally think this forunm would be better off with a "berf this card!" section.Seconded. And has been suggested too many times. That's why I don't like to touch this forum section anymore.
Post by: Captain Scibra on June 29, 2012, 02:12:40 pm
I think I can address the nerf area of the card to similarly addressing the issue seen with protecting permanents, particularly weapons and shields. A couple suggestions is that a spell card that removes the opponent's weapon or shield, or a creature that can do so with a successful attack. To separate the styles, I feel the creature approach is appropriate for shields, since they are directly involved with each other. The spell can be preferred and stronger against weapons, by making it less situational and hard to avoid by making it capable of removing flown weapons. This would also tempt more synergy involved when using 'indestructible' shields.
To address the buff area of the card is rather difficult, since its situational attributes are harder to generalize like my methods of suggesting nerfs. Raising the DR would make it match that of Emerald Shield | Jade Shield. I'll have to think about this area more.
EDIT: Another dilemma that this card has is, due to the self-counter, a buff might just as easily buff the opponent that uses it to bypass the other. Particularly this means buffing reflectivity is not the best choice.
Post by: rosutosefi on June 29, 2012, 02:43:20 pm
[/rage]
Post by: esran on June 29, 2012, 06:27:05 pm
Post by: OldTrees on June 29, 2012, 07:43:24 pm
i would like to mention that no poll option suggests increasing the dr of the upped, simply giving the unupped 1 dr. the reason for this is a dont want to clone jade shield, and a 2 dr shield would have to cost a ton and ruin the point of mirror shield. this means that the upped and unupped will have the same dr. can anybody give suggestions of what advatange over the unupped the upped could have, besides a simple cost decrease?I would like to point out that a simple cost decrease is a simple and valuable benefit. Keep It Short and Simple.
Post by: Cannibal7 on July 21, 2012, 09:19:35 am
Post by: ratcharmer on July 22, 2012, 05:54:04 am
Not really sure how to fix it.
Post by: Naesala on July 22, 2012, 06:57:13 am
These are always tricky because they're hard counters to specific strategies--they either do nothing at all or they completely shut your opponent down with a single card.There are two strategies this currently shuts down: Bolt decks (the only frequently played one being firestall) and SoW decks
Not really sure how to fix it.
Bolt decks usually pack their own mirror shield to bounce off
SoW decks can withhold their SoW and still deal decent damage.
I suppose if your only damage source was psions and thunderbolts you'd be in trouble, but your deck probably isnt terribly effective if that is the only damage you have.
Post by: furballdn on July 22, 2012, 07:00:06 am
And UG.These are always tricky because they're hard counters to specific strategies--they either do nothing at all or they completely shut your opponent down with a single card.There are two strategies this currently shuts down: Bolt decks (the only frequently played one being firestall) and SoW decks
Not really sure how to fix it.
Bolt decks usually pack their own mirror shield to bounce off
SoW decks can withhold their SoW and still deal decent damage.
I suppose if your only damage source was psions and thunderbolts you'd be in trouble, but your deck probably isnt terribly effective if that is the only damage you have.
Boltdecks usually pack mirror shields to bypass that, and mono aether can use lobo to lobo psions. SoW decks don't have any way around it (You can't touch immaterial creatures except with more SoW), and neither do UG decks (unless they also pack an alternative source of damage like EE)
Post by: Naesala on July 22, 2012, 07:22:44 am
More on topic: I still believe either the text needs clarified and then some buffing in regards to price, or all spells should be countered.
Post by: memimemi on July 22, 2012, 05:50:47 pm
Spells that are already reflected: Fire Bolt, Lightning, Shockwave.
Spells that target you directly, through Mirror Shield/Emerald Shield: Poison, Purify, Black Hole, Silence, Nova, Heal.
Abilities reflected: Unstable Gas (explode), Psion, SoW
Abilities NOT reflected: Poison, Black Hole ( :gravity Nymph), Hasten.
Spells/Abilities countered: 6/15. NOT countered: 8/15.
As has been mentioned above, either 15/15 spells/abilites should be reflected, or the text needs changing on these cards. It's nice to know that I'm not alone in thinking that reflecting 15/15 spells/abilities is the way to go. However, the poll suggests that most don't see the need for a buff; for those who feel that way, would it be fair to instead only push for a buff to Mirror Shield, and not Emerald?
Post by: Cheesy111 on July 22, 2012, 07:59:19 pm
To clarify:
Spells that are already reflected: Fire Bolt, Lightning, Shockwave.
Spells that target you directly, through Mirror Shield/Emerald Shield: Poison, Purify, Black Hole, Silence, Nova, Heal.
Abilities reflected: Unstable Gas (explode), Psion, SoW
Abilities NOT reflected: Poison, Black Hole ( :gravity Nymph), Hasten.
Spells/Abilities countered: 6/15. NOT countered: 8/15.
As has been mentioned above, either 15/15 spells/abilites should be reflected, or the text needs changing on these cards. It's nice to know that I'm not alone in thinking that reflecting 15/15 spells/abilities is the way to go. However, the poll suggests that most don't see the need for a buff; for those who feel that way, would it be fair to instead only push for a buff to Mirror Shield, and not Emerald?
Hasten targets you directly?
Post by: memimemi on July 22, 2012, 08:17:01 pm
Hasten targets you directly?
I think so, thematically at least. After all, the ability hastens you, the Elemental, allowing you to draw up another card. I know it doesn't have a target when used; however, I think many more abilities ought to be targeted - but that's another discussion altogether.
Post by: Guizonde on July 25, 2012, 05:54:58 pm
perhaps seeing as how a lot of people don't see the need to buff it, we should make sure it earns its place in the meta?
oh, still thinking reflective shield needs a huge buff, but after rereading the thread, i've even less idea how...
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on July 25, 2012, 07:09:10 pm
Post by: memimemi on July 25, 2012, 10:48:26 pm
Guys, don't you think you forget a tiny, minor detail? These shields do not just provide a low DR and reflect damage dealing spells. They also can't be destroyed or stolen . . . [n]o buff needed. The only thing it may needs a change, this is Jade Shield's price of 7 :life quanta, it may need a reducion to 6 :life in order to be more easlity available out of mono- :life decks.
Which would be a buff. Your point on indestructibility is quite valid; however, experience doesn't seem to show that to be powerful enough to make these shields widely used. They just aren't strong enough for top-level competitive play, unless you're willing to build your entire deck around them (and, really, there's pretty much only Quint/SoW or Anubis/Sow for that) - how much of a pain is Jade Shield to play against, as opposed to any other? Unless you're playing a Mono :aether deck, based on Psion, it'll barely slow you down.
For comparison, let's use
:DR: Shield 1; Emerald Shield 1; Reflective Shield 0
So, 1 DR is worth 1 :rainbow +1 card. Reflective Shield costs 1 :light +1 card; so, Reflection and Immaterial, together, are worth about 1/3-1/2 :light.
Yet, Emerald Shield costs 5 :life +1 card, for 1 DR (worth about 1/2 :life), and Reflection + Immaterial (worth about 1/2 :light - by extension, worth about 1/2 :life). What explains the other 3(pointsomethingorother) :life quanta cost?
Mirror Shield is essentially the same as Emerald Shield; yet, even after accounting a -1 quanta cost for upgrading, it still costs 1 :light less than it should (balanced against Emerald Shield). Is Mirror Shield OP? No. So, perhaps, Emerald is UP?
The more I think about it, the less these shields make sense.
Post by: blarp on July 25, 2012, 10:50:32 pm
Post by: Drake_XIV on July 25, 2012, 11:01:12 pm
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on July 26, 2012, 08:25:31 am
Guys, don't you think you forget a tiny, minor detail? These shields do not just provide a low DR and reflect damage dealing spells. They also can't be destroyed or stolen . . . [n]o buff needed. The only thing it may needs a change, this is Jade Shield's price of 7 :life quanta, it may need a reducion to 6 :life in order to be more easlity available out of mono- :life decks.
Which would be a buff. Your point on indestructibility is quite valid; however, experience doesn't seem to show that to be powerful enough to make these shields widely used. They just aren't strong enough for top-level competitive play, unless you're willing to build your entire deck around them (and, really, there's pretty much only Quint/SoW or Anubis/Sow for that) - how much of a pain is Jade Shield to play against, as opposed to any other? Unless you're playing a Mono :aether deck, based on Psion, it'll barely slow you down.
For comparison, let's use
DR: Shield 1; Emerald Shield 1; Reflective Shield 0
So, 1 DR is worth 1 :rainbow +1 card. Reflective Shield costs 1 :light +1 card; so, Reflection and Immaterial, together, are worth about 1/3-1/2 :light.
Yet, Emerald Shield costs 5 :life +1 card, for 1 DR (worth about 1/2 :life), and Reflection + Immaterial (worth about 1/2 :light - by extension, worth about 1/2 :life). What explains the other 3(pointsomethingorother) :life quanta cost?
Mirror Shield is essentially the same as Emerald Shield; yet, even after accounting a -1 quanta cost for upgrading, it still costs 1 :light less than it should (balanced against Emerald Shield). Is Mirror Shield OP? No. So, perhaps, Emerald is UP?
The more I think about it, the less these shields make sense.
The reduction of Jade Shield's price is not badly needed, it was just a suggestion if you think JS needs a small buff and it is mostly for making JS more easily available in duo-trio decks. About the imbalanced-cost thing, consider the following:
1 unupped card + 1 DR cost 1 :rainbow alone (Shield)
1 upped card + 2 DR cost 5 :rainbow alone (Tower Shield)
From the above, we can see why the upped Jade Shield costs 7 :life in comparison with the unupped Emerald Shield which costs 5 :life; it is because it offers 2 DR instead of 1 DR.
Now, let's compare the Mirror Shield with the Emerald Shield. Both have exactly the same effects (1 DR, reflect spells, can't be destroyed/stolen), however Mirror is an upped card, so it costs 2 :light while ES costs 3 more (5 :life) because it is unupped (+2 quanta) and because :life has to pay 1 quantum more than :light for an immaterial effect (keep in mind that immaterial is considered in-element for :light but out-of-element for the rest of the elements, including :life). Same goes with Jade shield; 5 :rainbow quanta is about 4 :life quanta, so a +2DR Emerald Shield should cost 5 + 4 = 9 :life quanta, but because Jade is upped (-2 quanta) it costs 7 :life at the end.
The only thing debatable in my opinion is to consider immaterial as both a :life and :light in-element effect, so both Emerald/Jade Shields should have their costs reduced by 1 (that would make their costs 4 :life and 6 :life respectively).
EDIT:
By the way, ES and JS can be proven really useful in Bronze arena, since lately is full of Psions and SoWisdoms. Furthermore, Deflags and Steals are always present in Bronze too, so a JS can be a worthy choice for a farming deck. Personally, I work in a mono-life JadeShield-based deck and I will inform you how well it went.
Post by: Annele on July 26, 2012, 11:21:35 am
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on July 26, 2012, 11:25:04 am
Hold on, I thought immaterial was in-element with Aether?
No, Immortality is in-element with :aether (Phase Dragon, Immortal, Quintessence). Immaterial, which is "immortality" for permanents, is in-element with :light (Reflective Shield, Hope, Morning Star). ;)
:earth seems to has a little of both; immortality through burrowing, immaterial through Enchant Artifact.
:life has only immaterial (Emerald Shield).
:light and :fire have also immortality through Seraph.
:time and :aether have also immortality through Anubis.
Post by: bobknows on July 26, 2012, 07:34:53 pm
an easy buff to these shields would be making them reflect the poison spell. because poison is so often found throughout the meta this would become a much better card both for arena and pvp.
Post by: furballdn on July 26, 2012, 07:44:35 pm
I noticed this after playing my version of zen with one of these: it reflects purify, but not poison.Poison doesn't target. Purify targets.
an easy buff to these shields would be making them reflect the poison spell. because poison is so often found throughout the meta this would become a much better card both for arena and pvp.
Post by: OdinVanguard on August 01, 2012, 11:13:59 pm
Another would be to have them generate quanta when they activate.
Post by: memimemi on August 01, 2012, 11:19:55 pm
Perhaps just making all non-AoE spells targetable would be a way to not only provide a soft buff to these shields, but also to standardize the way spells work in EtG as a whole?
Post by: Ilias22 on August 11, 2012, 01:58:23 pm
Post by: Annele on August 11, 2012, 09:31:53 pm
They should cost -1 quanta :light/ :life
Gogo free immaterial shield!
Post by: Ilias22 on August 12, 2012, 08:08:04 am
Why not??? 8)They should cost -1 quanta :light/ :life
Gogo free immaterial shield!
Post by: Ilias22 on August 15, 2012, 10:05:24 am
Post by: rosutosefi on August 15, 2012, 11:15:10 am
make the unnuped to stop 1 attack and cost 2 :light quanta and make upped the same but to cost only a :light quanta
Emerald Shield.
Post by: Ilias22 on August 15, 2012, 11:17:01 am
yes...75% the same but there is a deference...upped emerald stops 2 attack and my idea will stop 1.make the unnuped to stop 1 attack and cost 2 :light quanta and make upped the same but to cost only a :light quanta
Emerald Shield.
Post by: rosutosefi on August 15, 2012, 11:25:51 am
yes...75% the same but there is a deference...upped emerald stops 2 attack and my idea will stop 1.make the unnuped to stop 1 attack and cost 2 :light quanta and make upped the same but to cost only a :light quanta
Emerald Shield.
costs 5, Immaterial and blocks 1. It's the same with your unupped reflective shield proposal, just costs more.
Post by: Ilias22 on August 15, 2012, 11:42:27 am
yes that i am talking about. :Dyes...75% the same but there is a deference...upped emerald stops 2 attack and my idea will stop 1.make the unnuped to stop 1 attack and cost 2 :light quanta and make upped the same but to cost only a :light quanta
Emerald Shield.
Post by: kira666 on August 15, 2012, 03:43:23 pm
Yes, Reflective shield needs to block more:
2/4 :light
blocks 1/2
Reflect and Protected
But then, we need to change Emerald Shield.
It could reflect only half damage, or something like:
4 :life
Blocks 1dmg from attacks and spells. Deals 1 dmg back to enemy.
8 :life
Blocks half damage, rounded down, from attacks and spells. Deals the blocked dmg to your enemy.
Post by: OldTrees on August 15, 2012, 03:50:15 pm
Emerald Shield and Reflective shield looks the same too much.So Reflect would not only be cheaper but now it would be stronger too?
Yes, Reflective shield needs to block more:
2/4 :light
blocks 1/2
Reflect and Protected
But then, we need to change Emerald Shield.
It could reflect only half damage, or something like:
4 :life
Blocks 1dmg from attacks and spells. Deals 1 dmg back to enemy.
8 :life
Blocks half damage, rounded down, from attacks and spells. Deals the blocked dmg to your enemy.
Post by: esran on August 21, 2012, 06:30:01 pm
my idea was to leave emerald and jade shield alone. they seem to cost enough to warrant spell immunity.
my idea is to change reflective shield such tht its situationalness is removed and it no longer blocks all spells.
the reason it would be cheaper than jade shield is because it would have limited use, and the upped would still only have 1 dr.
obviously this needs more balancing, and probably even warrants a cost increase for the unupped, based on which of the ideas is used.
Post by: kira666 on August 28, 2012, 04:01:15 pm
Emerald Shield and Reflective shield looks the same too much.So Reflect would not only be cheaper but now it would be stronger too?
Yes, Reflective shield needs to block more:
2/4 :light
blocks 1/2
Reflect and Protected
But then, we need to change Emerald Shield.
It could reflect only half damage, or something like:
4 :life
Blocks 1dmg from attacks and spells. Deals 1 dmg back to enemy.
8 :life
Blocks half damage, rounded down, from attacks and spells. Deals the blocked dmg to your enemy.
Reflect Shield is stronger against Spell Damage and weaker against normal damage (Reflects all Spell Damage but only Blocks 1 or 2 normal damage), and costs more than now.
Emerald Shield is good against both (Reflects few/half damage of both Spell and normal damage).
Each shield working it's way.
No Emerald or Reflect shield being as good as Wings, Bone Wall or Phase Shield, but able to block Spell Damage.
Of course, we still need more cards to work against Shard of Wisdom.
Post by: OldTrees on August 28, 2012, 04:56:41 pm
I was referring to Reflect being cheaper and stronger than the unupped emerald.Emerald Shield and Reflective shield looks the same too much.So Reflect would not only be cheaper but now it would be stronger too?
Yes, Reflective shield needs to block more:
2/4 :light
blocks 1/2
Reflect and Protected
But then, we need to change Emerald Shield.
It could reflect only half damage, or something like:
4 :life
Blocks 1dmg from attacks and spells. Deals 1 dmg back to enemy.
8 :life
Blocks half damage, rounded down, from attacks and spells. Deals the blocked dmg to your enemy.
Reflect Shield is stronger against Spell Damage and weaker against normal damage (Reflects all Spell Damage but only Blocks 1 or 2 normal damage), and costs more than now.
Emerald Shield is good against both (Reflects few/half damage of both Spell and normal damage).
Each shield working it's way.
No Emerald or Reflect shield being as good as Wings, Bone Wall or Phase Shield, but able to block Spell Damage.
Of course, we still need more cards to work against Shard of Wisdom.
Post by: kira666 on August 29, 2012, 04:29:02 pm
Quote
was referring to Reflect being cheaper and stronger than the unupped emerald.
Unupped emerald deals 1dmg back for normal and spell damage. Its like a Fire Shield (costs 6), but for the opponent (much more HP than a creature), and still blocks 1dmg.
It may be even OP, if you consider Aflatoxin.
I think quanta is balanced, not sure.
Post by: meowww on September 02, 2012, 06:04:49 am
If you can think of some abilities don't raise its cost above 3, I might like it.
I am enjoying it with Quint+SoWis, they aren't too strong, but more fun than always anti-matter.
Post by: jawdirk on September 15, 2012, 05:42:04 am
Add the text "If this shield replaces or is replaced by a different shield, draw a card." This will make these cards playable in any deck without getting in the way of running another shield that actually does something in most games. The "a different shield" prevents reflective shield from being used as a buffed precognition.
Post by: OldTrees on September 15, 2012, 05:04:00 pm
I just had an idea on how to fix these cards.Interesting. However buffing both high and low usages of a situational card does not equalize those uses.
Add the text "If this shield replaces or is replaced by a different shield, draw a card." This will make these cards playable in any deck without getting in the way of running another shield that actually does something in most games. The "a different shield" prevents reflective shield from being used as a buffed precognition.
Post by: jawdirk on September 15, 2012, 09:58:19 pm
I agree. I think combining the above with making them no longer immaterial would equalize. Imagine you were running these and some other shield against a deck with both physical and spell damage. There would be cases where you would be unsure whether to replace your shield; for example, you might have to weigh having backup against PC + physical protection vs. spell reflection and drawing. That seems like a more interesting choice than what we have now. Note also that this effect isn't as good as precognition because it is a 2-card combo. Precognition is already fairly marginal, so you are still getting punished a little bit when you use this effect.I just had an idea on how to fix these cards.Interesting. However buffing both high and low usages of a situational card does not equalize those uses.
Add the text "If this shield replaces or is replaced by a different shield, draw a card." This will make these cards playable in any deck without getting in the way of running another shield that actually does something in most games. The "a different shield" prevents reflective shield from being used as a buffed precognition.
Then again, it might be a little bit OP. Imagine running 6 reflecting shields + 6 dim shields. On the last turn of the dim shield, you play a reflective shield and then a dim shield, and draw two cards. Perhaps you should only draw a card when reflecting shield is replaced?
Post by: Heric the Dark Lord on September 29, 2012, 01:57:11 am
If it really, desperately needs a buff, why has no one suggested that it reflect poison counters(But not the damage), too? Seems to fit Light, too.
Last note, I do not support the losing perma-resistance. Removes the entire point of the shield's ability to protect you from those spells and make your opponent come out and fight you with creatures.
Post by: jawdirk on September 30, 2012, 01:17:06 am
I think it's powerful enough it doesn't need a buff or a berf. It's a cheap shield, that blocks a lot of different cards. Fire bolt, Ice bolt, Lightning, Drain Life, Nightmare, All cards with impressive usesNone of these cards are efficient enough to warrant even a single card in your deck to stop them dealing damage to you. Also, they all have secondary uses so they can still be used against you if you play reflective shield. Also, you would be better off with sanctuary since none of them can deal damage per turn.
Quote
, and last but not least, the oh so Well-known Psion. Helps against several types of decks.Lets be honest. 2-3 types of decks (SoW, psion, unstable gas?).
Quote
If it really, desperately needs a buff, why has no one suggested that it reflect poison counters(But not the damage), too? Seems to fit Light, too...That's the problem with this card. It forces your opponent to come out and fight you with creatures, or weapons, or poison, or void, or decking you out. Because if he tries to kill you with fire bolt -- boy is he going to regret it. I like your idea about the poison counters, but as it stands this card either does absolutely nothing, or it completely destroys a fringe strategy. This thread is about making it do something against at least some of the dominant deck strategies, and making it not totally annihilate some rare strategies that are almost viable.
Last note, I do not support the losing perma-resistance. Removes the entire point of the shield's ability to protect you from those spells and make your opponent come out and fight you with creatures.
Post by: Heric the Dark Lord on September 30, 2012, 05:30:38 am
Post by: lightmage5 on November 27, 2012, 08:41:37 pm
Post by: meowww on November 27, 2012, 09:19:16 pm
What about reducing its damage resistance from 1 to 0 for the upgraded version but it could then reflect ANY spell black hole, poisen etc.Maybe at 6-8 :light, this could be happen.
Post by: Submachine on September 27, 2019, 08:27:42 am
I have been thinking about the purpose of counter cards. Counter cards, as in, cards that mainly exist to counter a specific card or strategy, making them situational.
A few counter cards exist.
Most of these have a redeeming feature though, which makes them usable even if there is nothing to counter.
However, I have two problems with these counter cards.
I could focus on any point that I listed, but let's focus on Reflective Shield now. Unupgraded Reflective Shield suffers from both of the problems that I listed just above. With these in mind, I came to the following conclusion:
A few counter cards exist.
- Reflective/Emerald Shield: Block and reflect spell damage.
- Purify: Removes Poison and Sacrifice statuses.
- Enchant Artifact: Prevents the destruction of important permanents.
- And arguably any Creature/Permanent Control card, because they only work if the opponent has creatures/permanents.
Most of these have a redeeming feature though, which makes them usable even if there is nothing to counter.
- Mirror/Emerald/Jade Shield provides undestructible damage reduction.
- Purify can keep creatures healthy, which comboes well with Acceleration for example.
- Creature Control can be strategically used on your own creatures, for example, to remove Antimatter or use it on Voodoo Dolls. Some can also be used on the opponent's HP directly.
- And Permanent Control can be used on PPMs as a last resort.
However, I have two problems with these counter cards.
- Sometimes counter cards are essential to the deck and decks are built around them. In these cases, multiple copies are included in the deck to increase the chance of drawing them early, but after drawing the first one, the remaining copies usually brick the hand. But if not enough copies are used, they might not be drawn before the game ends.
- A few cards are useless if they are not used against the deck they should counter.
I could focus on any point that I listed, but let's focus on Reflective Shield now. Unupgraded Reflective Shield suffers from both of the problems that I listed just above. With these in mind, I came to the following conclusion:
What if Reflective Shield had an ability that made sure at least 1 copy of the card went to your starting hand?
It is really useless when included in a deck against a different deck that does not even deal spell damage. So when it is included against spell damage, at least let it consistently do the one job it was invented for.
Only 1 copy in the deck makes sure you draw it, and further copies do not brick your hand.
Post by: kaempfer13 on September 28, 2019, 03:10:51 pm