Poll

how should this card be changed

no changes, its perfectly fine how it is.
25 (50%)
add damage resist to the unupped, raise its cost, and give it semi PC protection with limited uses.
8 (16%)
add damage resistance to the unupped, raise its cost, and give it bonewall style PC resistance where bolts also remove counters.
4 (8%)
option 3 but also give it a way to restore counters
3 (6%)
something else that i will say in comments
7 (14%)
remove the card entirely because i hate it
1 (2%)
add dr and make it return rather than reflect spell damage
2 (4%)

Total Members Voted: 50

Poll

What sort of buff would make these shields competitive?

No buff; they're fine how they are
Reflect all spells; no balancing
Reflect all spells; remove protection from PA
Reflect all spells; remove damage reduction
Other - post below

*Author

Offline Naesala

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Re: Reflective Shield / Mirror Shield (Also Emerald/Jade Shield) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19247.msg524201#msg524201
« Reply #108 on: July 22, 2012, 06:57:13 am »
These are always tricky because they're hard counters to specific strategies--they either do nothing at all or  they completely shut your opponent down with a single card.

Not really sure how to fix it.
There are two strategies this currently shuts down: Bolt decks (the only frequently played one being firestall) and SoW decks
Bolt decks usually pack their own mirror shield to bounce off
SoW decks can withhold their SoW and still deal decent damage.
I suppose if your only damage source was psions and thunderbolts you'd be in trouble, but your deck probably isnt terribly effective if that is the only damage you have.
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Offline furballdn

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Re: Reflective Shield / Mirror Shield (Also Emerald/Jade Shield) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19247.msg524202#msg524202
« Reply #109 on: July 22, 2012, 07:00:06 am »
These are always tricky because they're hard counters to specific strategies--they either do nothing at all or  they completely shut your opponent down with a single card.

Not really sure how to fix it.
There are two strategies this currently shuts down: Bolt decks (the only frequently played one being firestall) and SoW decks
Bolt decks usually pack their own mirror shield to bounce off
SoW decks can withhold their SoW and still deal decent damage.
I suppose if your only damage source was psions and thunderbolts you'd be in trouble, but your deck probably isnt terribly effective if that is the only damage you have.
And UG.

Boltdecks usually pack mirror shields to bypass that, and mono aether can use lobo to lobo psions. SoW decks don't have any way around it (You can't touch immaterial creatures except with more SoW), and neither do UG decks (unless they also pack an alternative source of damage like EE)

Offline Naesala

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Re: Reflective Shield / Mirror Shield (Also Emerald/Jade Shield) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19247.msg524210#msg524210
« Reply #110 on: July 22, 2012, 07:22:44 am »
Ah, forgot about UG. This is a hard counter to that. SoW doesnt have a great way around it, but like I said, they can withhold SoW if the enemy has one of these shields.

More on topic: I still believe either the text needs clarified and then some buffing in regards to price, or all spells should be countered.
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Offline memimemi

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Re: Reflective Shield / Mirror Shield (Also Emerald/Jade Shield) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19247.msg524312#msg524312
« Reply #111 on: July 22, 2012, 05:50:47 pm »
To clarify:

Spells that are already reflected: Fire Bolt, Lightning, Shockwave.

Spells that target you directly, through Mirror Shield/Emerald Shield: Poison, Purify, Black Hole, Silence, Nova, Heal.

Abilities reflected: Unstable Gas (explode), Psion, SoW

Abilities NOT reflected: Poison, Black Hole ( :gravity Nymph), Hasten.

Spells/Abilities countered: 6/15.  NOT countered: 8/15.

As has been mentioned above, either 15/15 spells/abilites should be reflected, or the text needs changing on these cards.  It's nice to know that I'm not alone in thinking that reflecting 15/15 spells/abilities is the way to go.  However, the poll suggests that most don't see the need for a buff; for those who feel that way, would it be fair to instead only push for a buff to Mirror Shield, and not Emerald?
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Offline Cheesy111

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Re: Reflective Shield / Mirror Shield (Also Emerald/Jade Shield) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19247.msg524341#msg524341
« Reply #112 on: July 22, 2012, 07:59:19 pm »
To clarify:

Spells that are already reflected: Fire Bolt, Lightning, Shockwave.

Spells that target you directly, through Mirror Shield/Emerald Shield: Poison, Purify, Black Hole, Silence, Nova, Heal.

Abilities reflected: Unstable Gas (explode), Psion, SoW

Abilities NOT reflected: Poison, Black Hole ( :gravity Nymph), Hasten.

Spells/Abilities countered: 6/15.  NOT countered: 8/15.

As has been mentioned above, either 15/15 spells/abilites should be reflected, or the text needs changing on these cards.  It's nice to know that I'm not alone in thinking that reflecting 15/15 spells/abilities is the way to go.  However, the poll suggests that most don't see the need for a buff; for those who feel that way, would it be fair to instead only push for a buff to Mirror Shield, and not Emerald?

Hasten targets you directly? 

Offline memimemi

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Re: Reflective Shield / Mirror Shield (Also Emerald/Jade Shield) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19247.msg524346#msg524346
« Reply #113 on: July 22, 2012, 08:17:01 pm »


Hasten targets you directly? 

I think so, thematically at least.  After all, the ability hastens you, the Elemental, allowing you to draw up another card.  I know it doesn't have a target when used; however, I think many more abilities ought to be targeted - but that's another discussion altogether.
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Offline Guizonde

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Re: Reflective Shield / Mirror Shield (Also Emerald/Jade Shield) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19247.msg525392#msg525392
« Reply #114 on: July 25, 2012, 05:54:58 pm »
i was fooling around on the trainer trying to better "headbutt a cactus", when i encountered this easy field lock strategy: aflatoxin ( 5 :death ) + mirror shield ( 2 :light ) = field lock for 7 quanta. for the rainbow i built, i could use the leftover  :life for mitosing minor phoenixes and SoFs.

perhaps seeing as how a lot of people don't see the need to buff it, we should make sure it earns its place in the meta?

oh, still thinking reflective shield needs a huge buff, but after rereading the thread, i've even less idea how...
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Re: Reflective Shield / Mirror Shield (Also Emerald/Jade Shield) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19247.msg525435#msg525435
« Reply #115 on: July 25, 2012, 07:09:10 pm »
Guys, don't you think you forget a tiny, minor detail? These shields do not just provide a low DR and reflect damage dealing spells. They also can't be destroyed or stolen, a huge advantage against :fire, :darkness, :entropy and the annoying SoFocus. Emerald/Jade Shield is a great example of jack-of-all-trades permanent which is very reliable against every kind of opponent. Reflective Shield is not very great because ot lacks DR, but when upgraded to Mirror Shield it also has DR of 1, making it a cheap yet flexible shield which offers a good protection against every threat. No buff needed. The only thing it may needs a change, this is Jade Shield's price of 7 :life quanta, it may need a reducion to 6 :life in order to be more easlity available out of mono- :life decks.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 07:11:43 pm by ARTHANASIOS »
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Offline memimemi

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Re: Reflective Shield / Mirror Shield (Also Emerald/Jade Shield) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19247.msg525542#msg525542
« Reply #116 on: July 25, 2012, 10:48:26 pm »
Guys, don't you think you forget a tiny, minor detail? These shields do not just provide a low DR and reflect damage dealing spells. They also can't be destroyed or stolen . . . [n]o buff needed. The only thing it may needs a change, this is Jade Shield's price of 7 :life quanta, it may need a reducion to 6 :life in order to be more easlity available out of mono- :life decks.

Which would be a buff.  Your point on indestructibility is quite valid; however, experience doesn't seem to show that to be powerful enough to make these shields widely used.  They just aren't strong enough for top-level competitive play, unless you're willing to build your entire deck around them (and, really, there's pretty much only Quint/SoW or Anubis/Sow for that) - how much of a pain is Jade Shield to play against, as opposed to any other?  Unless you're playing a Mono :aether deck, based on Psion, it'll barely slow you down.

For comparison, let's use :

DR: Shield 1; Emerald Shield 1; Reflective Shield 0

So, 1 DR is worth 1 :rainbow +1 card.  Reflective Shield costs 1 :light +1 card; so, Reflection and Immaterial, together, are worth about 1/3-1/2  :light.
Yet, Emerald Shield costs 5 :life +1 card, for 1 DR (worth about 1/2 :life), and Reflection + Immaterial (worth about 1/2 :light - by extension, worth about 1/2 :life).  What explains the other 3(pointsomethingorother)  :life quanta cost?

Mirror Shield is essentially the same as Emerald Shield; yet, even after accounting a -1 quanta cost for upgrading, it still costs 1 :light less than it should (balanced against Emerald Shield).  Is Mirror Shield OP?  No. So, perhaps, Emerald is UP?

The more I think about it, the less these shields make sense.
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Offline blarp

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Re: Reflective Shield / Mirror Shield (Also Emerald/Jade Shield) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19247.msg525544#msg525544
« Reply #117 on: July 25, 2012, 10:50:32 pm »
make them competitive by fixing the glitches associated with them and reallowing them in league. I think they're quite good, although you can't just splash them in a deck randomly
My default opinion of a new card is OP. Your job as a card creator will have to be to convince me otherwise.
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Re: Reflective Shield / Mirror Shield (Also Emerald/Jade Shield) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19247.msg525547#msg525547
« Reply #118 on: July 25, 2012, 11:01:12 pm »
What if reflected spell damage could be reflected at least once as well? [Thinking out loud]

Offline ARTHANASIOS

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Re: Reflective Shield / Mirror Shield (Also Emerald/Jade Shield) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19247.msg525749#msg525749
« Reply #119 on: July 26, 2012, 08:25:31 am »
Spoiler for Hidden:
Guys, don't you think you forget a tiny, minor detail? These shields do not just provide a low DR and reflect damage dealing spells. They also can't be destroyed or stolen . . . [n]o buff needed. The only thing it may needs a change, this is Jade Shield's price of 7 :life quanta, it may need a reducion to 6 :life in order to be more easlity available out of mono- :life decks.

Which would be a buff.  Your point on indestructibility is quite valid; however, experience doesn't seem to show that to be powerful enough to make these shields widely used.  They just aren't strong enough for top-level competitive play, unless you're willing to build your entire deck around them (and, really, there's pretty much only Quint/SoW or Anubis/Sow for that) - how much of a pain is Jade Shield to play against, as opposed to any other?  Unless you're playing a Mono :aether deck, based on Psion, it'll barely slow you down.

For comparison, let's use :

DR: Shield 1; Emerald Shield 1; Reflective Shield 0

So, 1 DR is worth 1 :rainbow +1 card.  Reflective Shield costs 1 :light +1 card; so, Reflection and Immaterial, together, are worth about 1/3-1/2  :light.
Yet, Emerald Shield costs 5 :life +1 card, for 1 DR (worth about 1/2 :life), and Reflection + Immaterial (worth about 1/2 :light - by extension, worth about 1/2 :life).  What explains the other 3(pointsomethingorother)  :life quanta cost?

Mirror Shield is essentially the same as Emerald Shield; yet, even after accounting a -1 quanta cost for upgrading, it still costs 1 :light less than it should (balanced against Emerald Shield).  Is Mirror Shield OP?  No. So, perhaps, Emerald is UP?

The more I think about it, the less these shields make sense.

 The reduction of Jade Shield's price is not badly needed, it was just a suggestion if you think JS needs a small buff and it is mostly for making JS more easily available in duo-trio decks. About the imbalanced-cost thing, consider the following:
1 unupped card + 1 DR cost 1 :rainbow alone (Shield)
1 upped card + 2 DR cost 5 :rainbow alone (Tower Shield)

From the above, we can see why the upped Jade Shield costs 7 :life in comparison with the unupped Emerald Shield which costs 5 :life; it is because it offers 2 DR instead of 1 DR.
Now, let's compare the Mirror Shield with the Emerald Shield. Both have exactly the same effects (1 DR, reflect spells, can't be destroyed/stolen), however Mirror is an upped card, so it costs 2 :light while ES costs 3 more (5 :life) because it is unupped (+2 quanta) and because :life has to pay 1 quantum more than :light for an immaterial effect (keep in mind that immaterial is considered in-element for :light but out-of-element for the rest of the elements, including :life). Same goes with Jade shield; 5 :rainbow quanta is about 4 :life quanta, so a +2DR Emerald Shield should cost 5 + 4 = 9 :life quanta, but because Jade is upped (-2 quanta) it costs 7 :life at the end.
 The only thing debatable in my opinion is to consider immaterial as both a :life and :light in-element effect, so both Emerald/Jade Shields should have their costs reduced by 1 (that would make their costs 4 :life and 6 :life respectively).
EDIT:
  By the way, ES and JS can be proven really useful in Bronze arena, since lately is full of Psions and SoWisdoms. Furthermore, Deflags and Steals are always present in Bronze too, so a JS can be a worthy choice for a farming deck. Personally, I work in a mono-life JadeShield-based deck and I will inform you how well it went.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 08:30:04 am by ARTHANASIOS »
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