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Offline Helston

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Re: Vulture | Condor https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23322.msg1059975#msg1059975
« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2013, 03:05:38 am »
Player A: Rushes. gets 7th creature out.
Player B: Plays Vulture. Plays RoF, killing 6 out of 7 of A's cards. 6/7 vulture.

(I know you've changed your opinion since you've posted this, however it's a good opportunity to show why Vulture could do with a buff)

This is actually quite a good example as to why Vulture isn't OP. I'll assume Player A all 7 creatures last turn, and they average 5 damage. I'll ignore the creature that survives to simplify things. In which case you've just payed 3 :death, 7 :fire, 2 cards and 30 health lost to gain a 4 card advantage and a 6|7 creature with scavanger. A 6|7 creature would cost either 5 :underworld or 6 :underworld (See Abyss Crawler, Toadfish, Steel Golem), so by playing the Vulture compared to other creatures, you have a +3 :underworld advantage. The Rain of Fire costs 7 :underworld and gives you a +5 card advantage. If memory serves me correctly, the cost of a card is approximately 2 :underworld (see Electrum Hourglass), so the Rain of Fire puts you at a +5 :underworld advantage.
Considering both cards require the 30 damage to be taken, I'll look at it in the context of both of them. It will take 5 turns of completely uninterrupted damage for the Vulture to pay back the 30 damage taken from your health, which is a long time in all but strong stalls, so the card is very, very costly. Adding more Vultures significantly reduces the cost, but this comes at a higher card cost and becomes increasingly difficult to actually pull off. The Rain of Fire might have you take 30 damage, but it will be saving you 30 damage every turn for the rest of the game, which "heals" in one turn. If you convert that to damage done (healing has approximately half the value of doing damage), it will take 2 turns to pay off at 15 damage done per turn.
Finally, Vulture has to be played in combination with other cards to make it useful. Rain of Fire is standalone.

To summarise all that:
Rain of FireVulture2 VulturesRain of Fire + 1 VultureRain of Fire + 2 Vultures
Cost (less damage taken)7 :underworld + 1 card
~= 9 :underworld
3 :underworld + 1 card
~= 5 :underworld
6 :underworld + 2 cards
~= 10 :underworld
10 :underworld + 2 cards
~= 14 :underworld
13 :underworld + 3 cards
~= 19 :underworld
Net gain5 cards
~= 10 :underworld
6/7 for 3 :underworld
~= 3 :underworld
two 6/7 for 6 :underworld
~= 6 :underworld
5 cards + 6/7 for 3 :underworld
~= 13 :underworld
5 cards + two 6|7 for 6 :underworld
~= 16 :underworld
Extra damage done per turn30 healing
~= 15 damage
6 damage12 damage30 healing + 6 damage
~= 21 damage
30 healing + 12 damage
~= 27 damage
Turns taken to return the 30 damage252.51.41.1
Cost effectiveness (gain/cost)1.10.60.61.31.23
Requires combo?Standalone cardRequires comboRequires comboIs comboIs combo


Rain of Fire is clearly the bread that makes the sandwich of defeating your opponent! And the Vulture is the delicious mustard on that bread! The mustard of your opponent's doom! the key card. So much so that it takes two Vultures to equal the one Rain of Fire in terms of net gain and extra damage done per turn at almost half the cost effectiveness. AND the Vultures need another card to actually get the combo rolling.
If you then consider how slow it can be, and the redundancy of Vulture in the CC + bonewall deck archetype because of the strength of Poison and Arsenic, it's pretty obvious that Vulture could do with a little Zanz love.
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Offline Eddygp

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Re: Vulture | Condor https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23322.msg1061699#msg1061699
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2013, 09:25:45 pm »
I voted for Buff the scavenger ability, especially (+1|+2) or (+2|+1). The vulture develops good stats too slowly, it needs this sort of improvement. Would this mean that Cat+Vulture would be a good combo? Well, at least it would be useful for Levels 3, 4 and 5.
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Offline frimax

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Re: Vulture | Condor https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23322.msg1170965#msg1170965
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2014, 04:03:02 pm »

For God sake!!

Please, Just Make it immune to reverse time!!!!

REVERSE TIME = SAD FACE  :(
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Offline omegareaper7

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Re: Vulture | Condor https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23322.msg1170970#msg1170970
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2014, 04:58:24 pm »

For God sake!!

Please, Just Make it immune to reverse time!!!!

REVERSE TIME = SAD FACE  :(
Being immune to reverse time would make zero sense. Not to mention buffed creatures should never have an innate immunity to stuff like that.
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Offline frimax

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Re: Vulture | Condor https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23322.msg1171023#msg1171023
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2014, 01:28:00 am »


What about turn it into another creature?
Condor is turned into a wyrm or pegasus if hit by reverse time. 90%.
Condor is turned into a dragon. 10%.
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Offline bossitron

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Re: Vulture | Condor https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23322.msg1171046#msg1171046
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2014, 06:35:35 am »


What about turn it into another creature?
Condor is turned into a wyrm or pegasus if hit by reverse time. 90%.
Condor is turned into a dragon. 10%.
that doesn't even make sense
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Offline Devourer

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Re: Vulture | Condor https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23322.msg1171064#msg1171064
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2014, 09:21:12 am »
I support Chapuz' original idea: lowering the cost to 2 :death|1 :death. Because that is not on the poll, I voted for buffing the vanilla stats. My reasoning is that Vulture can be a very powerful card in the right deck. The problem is that there are very few of those decks, and they aren't even very reliable. Lowering the cost or raising the stats would allow vultures to be played in more decks or with less vulnerability to CC.
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