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Offline farrugiamathsTopic starter

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[Official] Poison | Deadly Poison https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43784.msg1003958#msg1003958
« on: September 30, 2012, 09:48:03 am »
Poison is an excellent card; in my opinion it is perfectly balanced, it needs neither a buff nor a nerf.

Deadly Poison, however, need a bit of help I think. For starters, I deal more damage by playing two Poisons in two turns than by playing 1 Deadly Poison in one turn (and using 2 Death quanta for both in the process). In the former case, I deal 2 + 2 + ... + 2 + 4 + 4 + ... + 4 damage = 2t + 4(x-t) damage = 4x - 2t damage in x turns, while I deal 3 + 3 + ... + 3 damage = 3x damage in the latter case in the same number of turns. Unless x is less than 2t, the former case accumulates more damage than the second. (I'm assuming t is the number of turns I take to play the second Poison card after I had played the first one.) All this for the same amount of quanta? No thanks, I'll pass.

The same exact argument works if I play 4 Poison versus 2 Deadly Poison and 6 Poison versus 3 Deadly Poison. So how do 6 Poison versus 6 Deadly Poison fare?

Suppose I happen to play 6 Poison in 6 turns, one in each turn. The poison damage accumulated would be 2 + 4 + 6 + 8 + 10 + 12 + 12 + 12 + ..., and all this for just 6 Death quanta. This is the function

P(t) = t^2 + t, if t<7
P(t) = 12t - 30, if t>6

If I happen to play 6 Deadly Poison in 6 turns, one in each turn, the poison damage accumulated would be 3 + 6 + 9 + 12 + 15 + 18 + 18 + 18 + ..., and this for 12 Death quanta. This is the function

D(t) = 1.5t^2 + 1.5t, if t<7
D(t) = 18t - 45, if t>6

Thus, for P(t), the ratio of poison damage per quanta used is

R1(t) = (t^2 + t) / t = t+1, if t<7
R1(t) = (12t - 30) / 6 = 2t - 5, if t>6

This is the sequence 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, ...

For D(t), the ratio of poison damage per quanta used is

R2(t) = (1.5t^2 + 1.5t) / (2t) = 0.75(t+1), if t<7
R2(t) = (18t - 45) / 12 = 1.5t - 3.75, if t>6

This is the sequence 1.5, 2.25, 3, 3.75, 4.5, 5.25, 6.75, 8.25, ...

As you can see, the first sequence always contains larger numbers than the second one for any t. In fact, this will continue for even large values of t, because suppose there was a t such that 1.5t - 3.75 > 2t - 5. This would mean that 5 - 3.75 > 0.5t, or that t < 2.5, which is not possible in our case since the second case only happens when t>6 for both R1(t) and R2(t).

But there's another consideration. Deadly Poison deals more damage in the long run, so it stands to reason that games should be shorter when using it.

Playing against Elders, P(t) would need 11 turns to deal 100 damage, whereas D(t) would need 9 turns (2 less turns).
Playing against Half-Bloods, P(t) would need 15 turns to deal 150 damage, whereas D(t) would need 11 turns (4 less turns).
Playing against False Gods, P(t) would need 20 turns to deal 200 damage, whereas D(t) would need 14 turns (6 less turns).

Thus, in short, Deadly Poison does less poison damage per quanta than Poison does, but finishes the game quicker, especially against HBs and FGs.

Because of this, I think that Deadly Poison should be buffed so that the poison-to-quanta ratio is improved. This can obviously be done by making it require one quantum to cast instead of two, and leaving it to inflict 3 poison damage per turn.

So, what do you think?

(I cannot find the button to post a poll, however the question is simple anyway: do you want Deadly Poison to be buffed by making it cost 1 Death Quantum instead of two, or not?)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 05:19:59 pm by Treldon »

Offline Absol

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Re: Poison / Deadly Poison https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43784.msg1003962#msg1003962
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 10:22:47 am »
Poison: 1 :death + 1 card slot = 2 damage
Deadly Poison: 2 :death + 1 card slot = 3 damage

In balancing, a card slot usually worth 1 :underworld.
Thus, total cost:
Poison: 2 :underworld = 2 damage
Deadly Poison: 3 :underworld = 3 damage

It gains card advantage instead of quanta advantage. No buff needed.
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Re: Poison / Deadly Poison https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43784.msg1003975#msg1003975
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 12:01:21 pm »
Poison: 1 :death + 1 card slot = 2 damage
Deadly Poison: 2 :death + 1 card slot = 3 damage

In balancing, a card slot usually worth 1 :underworld.
Thus, total cost:
Poison: 2 :underworld = 2 damage
Deadly Poison: 3 :underworld = 3 damage

It gains card advantage instead of quanta advantage. No buff needed.

exactly. less efficient, but grants you more poison while maintaining the number of cards

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Re: Poison / Deadly Poison https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43784.msg1003992#msg1003992
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 02:41:42 pm »
@the above 2 posters, the formula would be correct if we were comparing 2 unupped cards. Deadly poison, however, fails to incorporate the upgrade bonus, so I do agree with a buff.

I feel really iffy about the OPs suggestion though, 2 :death for 4 sounds more balanced to me imo, just to keep with the current upgrade's theme of better card efficiency

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Re: Poison / Deadly Poison https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43784.msg1003993#msg1003993
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2012, 02:49:23 pm »
@the above 2 posters, the formula would be correct if we were comparing 2 unupped cards. Deadly poison, however, fails to incorporate the upgrade bonus, so I do agree with a buff.

I feel really iffy about the OPs suggestion though, 2 :death for 4 sounds more balanced to me imo, just to keep with the current upgrade's theme of better card efficiency

not all the upgraded cards are meant to be an improved version of its unnuped counterpart. just look at pufferfish, chaos seed or dissipation shield, among others. In this particular case, using poison suits a rush deck more, while deadly poison works a lot better in a more stall-based deck. Remember that quanta in mid-game and forth becomes less of a problem than in early-game, where quanta efficiency is much more important. Simply put, poison and deadly poison fit better in very different decks

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Re: Poison / Deadly Poison https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43784.msg1003997#msg1003997
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2012, 02:59:32 pm »
Quote
not all the upgraded cards are meant to be an improved version of its unnuped counterpart.
I know I'm a relatively new player but the above quote sounds very strange to me. What's the point of upgrading a card if it is not an improved version of its unupped counterpart?

2 Quanta for 4 poison damage is the same as the unupped card, poison-to-quanta ratio wise, but finishes the game earlier, so I would agree with this buff at least if my suggestion is not agreed upon.

Offline Poker Alho

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Re: Poison / Deadly Poison https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43784.msg1003998#msg1003998
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2012, 03:09:19 pm »
Quote
not all the upgraded cards are meant to be an improved version of its unnuped counterpart.
I know I'm a relatively new player but the above quote sounds very strange to me. What's the point of upgrading a card if it is not an improved version of its unupped counterpart?

2 Quanta for 4 poison damage is the same as the unupped card, poison-to-quanta ratio wise, but finishes the game earlier, so I would agree with this buff at least if my suggestion is not agreed upon.

some cards are upgraded because their upped version will fit into different decks and strategies. Did you saw the examples i said in my previous post? regardless of that, let me show you the case of chaos seed/chaos power:



chaos seed is a very cheap CC card that gives a random effect to its target. not the most reliable CC out there, but it can work very well given its cost



chaos power is the upgraded version of chaos seed, but instead of being a "better chaos seed", it changes into a completely different card. Instead of giving random effects, chaos power grants random attack and defense bonuses, turning it into a (very cheap) buff card, completely different from its unnuped version and useful in completely different decks

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Re: Poison / Deadly Poison https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43784.msg1004002#msg1004002
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2012, 03:27:59 pm »
I don't know. As an avid Death player, one who have used Poison countless times, I think Deady Poison is fine the way it is.

I can't really explain it. Try killing someone with only 6 unupped Poisons (as your damage source) in your deck, then try doing the same with 6 Deadly Poisons. You will see the difference.
As others have pointed it out, it has to do with card space preservation.
Ever compared, say, Flesh Recluse and Ivory Dragon?
Flesh Recluse is 6|3 for 3 :death
Ivory Dragon is 11|5 for 10 :death

By this logic, we should probably buff all dragons to have a similar damage/cost ratio as the Recluse. But the reason dragons are so expensive (and seemingly cost-ineffective) is the fact that they deal tremendous damage and only take up one space in your deck.

I believe the card is fine. No buff is needed, since it is already very powerful. Keep in mind that poison ignores shields and sundials and there are few counters to it: increasing its damage to 4 would make it completely overshadow creatures. Compare to Psion and Antlion, I guess.

I'd also like to point out that the increased quanta generation (and lower quanta cost of other cards) in upgraded environment balances the cost increase out very well.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 03:47:39 pm by Shantu »

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Re: Poison / Deadly Poison https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43784.msg1004004#msg1004004
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2012, 03:32:32 pm »
I believe that Deadly Poison is just fine. I understand how you want to balance it, but like Shantu said, playing with Deadly Poisons as opposed to Poisons makes it feel like there is no buff needed.
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Re: Poison / Deadly Poison https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43784.msg1004023#msg1004023
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2012, 04:20:17 pm »
Poison: 1 :death + 1 card slot = 2 damage
Deadly Poison: 2 :death + 1 card slot = 3 damage

In balancing, a card slot usually worth 2 :underworld.
Upgrades are usually worth 1-2 quanta
Thus, total cost:
Poison: 3 :underworld = 2 damage
Deadly Poison: 5-6 :underworld = 3 damage

It gains card advantage instead of quanta advantage. No buff needed.
I could see it dealing 4 poison. Especially if the cost were upped to 3 :death.
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Re: Poison / Deadly Poison https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43784.msg1004990#msg1004990
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2012, 06:17:58 am »
I could see it dealing 4 poison. Especially if the cost were upped to 3 :death.

Though compair with immortals, which are 6 :aether for 4 damages and stops before shields, 3 :death for 4 poison is way better.

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Re: Poison / Deadly Poison https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43784.msg1004992#msg1004992
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2012, 06:22:40 am »
I could see it dealing 4 poison. Especially if the cost were upped to 3 :death.

Though compair with immortals, which are 6 :aether for 4 damages and stops before shields, 3 :death for 4 poison is way better.
Immortals are generally considered UP - it would be tough to make a balancing argument for them.

 

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