[Official] Trident | Poseidon

[Dm]

You forgot "Fine as is" option. (Or "No change needed", or... yeah.)

Target creature gains +0/+2 is just a weak version of SoP.

Added it to the poll, although considering how little it's used by players I don't think it can be argued that it doesn't need a change. I have seen it a few times in rainbow arena decks where they have the quanta cost quickly enough to supply it. (It didn't have much effect then to me; a Pulverizer or an Eagle's Eye would have done more work against my deck.)

It's not my personal favourite either, but it's an option and I figured I'd give people all the options. Having something then removed because it's not great or outright bad or boring is what I'd rather do over not adding it in the first place.

Would you argue Blue Crawler needs a change? It's rarely used.
Skeleton is also rarely used.
I don't see Plague all that much.
Anyone know where Phase Spider is in most un-upped decks?
I'd also like to see Sapphire Chargers somewhere.
Emerald and Reflective Shield, I don't see them often.
Just because it's rarely used it does not mean it needs a change.

[Zergva]

You forgot "Fine as is" option. (Or "No change needed", or... yeah.)

Target creature gains +0/+2 is just a weak version of SoP.

Added it to the poll, although considering how little it's used by players I don't think it can be argued that it doesn't need a change. I have seen it a few times in rainbow arena decks where they have the quanta cost quickly enough to supply it. (It didn't have much effect then to me; a Pulverizer or an Eagle's Eye would have done more work against my deck.)

It's not my personal favourite either, but it's an option and I figured I'd give people all the options. Having something then removed because it's not great or outright bad or boring is what I'd rather do over not adding it in the first place.

Would you argue Blue Crawler needs a change? It's rarely used.
Skeleton is also rarely used.
I don't see Plague all that much.
Anyone know where Phase Spider is in most un-upped decks?
I'd also like to see Sapphire Chargers somewhere.
Emerald and Reflective Shield, I don't see them often.
Just because it's rarely used it does not mean it needs a change.

Skeleton and the  shields actually UP. But your argument is good, they don't need change coz the underused. Flooding is underused as I see, but I don't think it's need buff.

[Klipsf4g]

Would you argue Blue Crawler needs a change? It's rarely used.
Skeleton is also rarely used.
I don't see Plague all that much.
Anyone know where Phase Spider is in most un-upped decks?
I'd also like to see Sapphire Chargers somewhere.
Emerald and Reflective Shield, I don't see them often.
Just because it's rarely used it does not mean it needs a change.

I'll go into those all separately. First off, however, I will say that Poseidon is a rare card; it's the unique water weapon; and it's an option for the final quest reward. There are other rare cards that are only useful in a few situations, but that's often because they are simply outclassed by other cards that fulfill the same or a similar function more effectively in the most common situations. However, Poseidon is a unique card, like all elements have their own unique weapon that all are strong: Excluding Earth, it's worth putting one in any mono-deck. (I have discussed Earth earlier so I won't go into that again.)

- Blue Crawler is used, and considerably more so than Poseidon, but particularly after Shard of Patience it's outclassed by other cards. Arctic Squids plus Congeals will keep the enemy down; tossing in a few Dragons will deal more damage, and you have the time to play them. Now that Shard of Patience is out, your puny little 1/2 creatures can rise to enormous heights as little cost and all you have to do is stall: Something a Water deck does exquisitely.
- Skeleton as a card is rarely used because it's very cost-ineffective. One might even argue that like Malignant Cell there doesn't even need to be a buyable Skeleton card, since Flesh Recluse is far stronger. However, changing Skeleton is almost impossible, as reducing its stats would render Boneyard/Graveyard incredibly weak; whereas upping its stats to match its playing cost would turn the Graveyards very strong... which then also would need a quanta change, and so on. Another thing is the ability of Skeletons that will turn them into a random creature if targeted with reverse time. All of these things together make it very difficult to change Skeleton, and there is quite frankly no need to, as playing a Skeleton card is clearly useless: Virus and Flesh Recluse will perform whatever role more effectively. The only reason it deserves to be a playable card right now is its passive Undead ability.
- Plague is fairly uncommon because Retrovirus is cheaper and stronger most of the time. It's still used and it has its role, but there is another card within the Death element that fulfills exactly the same role more effectively.
- Phase spider is, again, used, but especially now that Psion and more specifically Shard of Wisdom grant Aether decks the ability to dish out a lot of damage that cannot be evaded or CC'd away, and do it in a short amount of time as well, they are outclassed. Again: Other cards fulfill the same role but do it more effectively.
- I still see Sapphire Chargers, but I'll admit that the Momentum/Overdrive combination is very very strong and outclasses it almost all of the time. They have indeed lost their place in the meta with Overdrive's damage output becoming very high very quickly.
- Emerald and Reflective Shield only block spell DAMAGE. There are very few moments where it's worth to use damaging spells against your opponents, as they deal, well, very little damage. The max damage a Fire Bolt can deal is 24, at 75 quanta. Underwhelming to say the least, particularly since when fighting Arenas or lvl4-5s, you're up against high hp opponents. I think these shields' mechanics definitely deserve to be reworked, but I think that'd be a much larger issue than this and this is already very big so I'd rather not go into those now. =)

Just because something is rarely used doesn't indeed mean it needs a change. However, when a unique card like this can't play a role in a mono-deck, nor is it used in rainbows like the Pulverizer, it definitely deserves a buff or rework so it can become relevant.

[Dm]

"Blue Crawler is used" <- Abyss Crawler is the only thing I've seen, and that one copy in upped SNbows that are now relatively outdated. Plus, if anything, the shard of patience RAISED the utility of Blue Crawlers as they are the puniest creature in the water decks, having low atk for a relatively high cost for such a normal vanilla attacker. This card Was, Is, and Will continue to be severely underused, even if the SoPa has made it much better (something that is the total opposite of what you said in your post. Seriously.) It was always outclassed by other cards. "Particularly after Shard of Patience" just sounds like an excuse. And please don't mix upgraded and un-upgraded copies -- these differ. If we're talking upgraded, Abyss Crawler obviously sees much more use as it becomes a great hitter.

Skeleton: Indeed, it's very cost - ineffective. Yet, I don't see anyone making a Buff This Card! for Skeleton; or I might have simply missed it. The case is, it's rarely used, and the point here is not whether it is very cost ineffective or not - I was simply going off the premise you said "You can't argue that a card that is rarely used doesn't need a buff". You're arguing -exactly- that all these cards that I mentioned -- That are, by the way, underused -- do not need a buff. Aren't you contradicting yourself a bit here..?
Anyway, back on topic. Virus and Flesh SPIDER, not Recluse, as flesh recluse outclasses our dearest mummy by one attack point, by the way -- again, don't mix Upgraded and Un-upgraded because the upgraded variant of a card may be extensively used while the un-upgraded copy may be underused --  are NOT meant to fill the role of a skeleton, not now and not ever. A flesh spider, in a rush deck, is -EASILY- outclassed by a mummy (That has one higher cost for 2 more attack.) The Flesh Spider will fit the niche of being in a Wings deck to take the webbed creatures down -- That's all (again, Un-upgraded, Upgraded I have already talked about and as I said, do not mix upgraded with un here.) A Virus would never fill the role of a skeleton in a reverse time deck effectively. So saying that they will perform "whatever role more effectively" is just around the silliest thing you could say here. Apart from their niche, every single one of these cards is outclassed by mummy in a simple mono death rush deck. By the way, nice bringing up the virus - That, too, is another underused card. Either way, all the cards you mentioned, un-upgraded, apart from niche uses, will see close to no use.

"Plague is fairly uncommon because retrovirus" No. Plague is un-upped. Improved Plague is upped. Retrovirus is also upped, and, by the way, vulnerable to CC. Plague is the only mass CC card that death has un-upgraded. Again, I'm talking un-upgraded -- If you notice, I made sure to use all of the un-upgraded names. This is not default, this is on purpose. "There is another card within the Death element that fulfills exactly the same role more effectively" False. I made sure to use all the un-upgraded names for a reason. There is no other card that fulfills Plague's role un-upgraded. Yet I don't see it being used all that much. It's underused. According to yourself, you can't argue against this. You can't argue that a card that is underused shouldn't be buffed.

"Phase spider is, again, used" In the same way that Flesh Spider is, obviously. Un-upgraded Psion outclasses it by a long shot and it will only find it's uses in the same wings deck that flesh spider will find itself nested in. Of course, Phase Recluse is, just like Flesh Recluse, a whole different story -- But, un-upgraded, un-upgraded. Aye.
Also, I find it fun that you're dismissing everything as "Other cards fulfill the same role but more effectively". Doesn't that mean that they are underused and thus should be buffed -- By your own logic, even? By the way you're saying, I could simply provide you with the response that "Earthquake fulfills the same role of Poseidon but more effectively" and end this as is.

"I still see Sapphire Chargers, but I'll admit that the Momentum/Overdrive" Overdrive is upped, we should be talking about acceleration. Just being minor here, since this isn't that big of a deal. Either way, a momentum + acceleration combo is a 2 card combo that costs 4 quanta, and will also require a third card, the creature (which by itself, un-upped, would be 3 if we want to be completely fair, since the Graviton Mercenary is the only one that would fulfill this purpose -- No one would use FireMaster for a combo that would take it's ability away.) Further on "They have indeed lost their place in the meta"; They were really never in the meta. Un-upgraded charger is underused. Again, -by your logic-, "considering how little it's used by players I don't think it can be argued that it doesn't need a change."


Blah blah blah, emerald stuff, I just decided I should point out that you said that 24 dmg for a firebolt is underwhelming. I can only assume you haven't played nor faced a firestall. At least this one you agreed it needs a rework.



"Just because something is rarely used doesn't indeed mean it needs a change." Then please don't say it does.

"However, when a unique card like this can't play a role in a mono deck, nor is it used in rainbows like the Pulverizer, it definitely deserves a buff or rework so it can become relevant."

With this last line and going off everything you've said in your relatively long post, all of the cards that you mentioned, according to you (and agreed by me on some points) will not play a big role in a mono deck as it is easily shadowed by a card that will do better in it's place. So, there is no role for this card to fill in a mono deck (In some cases, VERY literally - Skeleton, for example.) (Plague shouldn't be not counted here as it can be played but isn't -- you should develop on this more after we made it clear we're not talking about upped.). By your own logic, wouldn't these cards deserve a buff or a rework?

Disclaimer : Nothing in this post is meant to be agressive or rude, and if it came across that way then I apologize now. Also, I should further apologize for not being able to quote all that you posted. Just the thought of doing all that multiquoting and then blah blah blah when using a mouse pad that constantly fails irks me, so I avoided it and instead used these pathetic quotation marks. Again, I apologize. If this post is not replied by the time I actually get a working mouse, I'll rework it to make it look prettier. So don't be scared if any edit comes across.

[Klipsf4g]

I reiterate, and, apparently, can't stress enough:

However, when a unique card like this can't play a role in a mono-deck, nor is it used in rainbows like the Pulverizer, it definitely deserves a buff or rework so it can become relevant.

None of that applies to any of the cards you mentioned.


As for unupped, yes, a lot of cards are very weak unupgraded. That's why you upgrade them.

Yes, this means that the range of useful cards for unupped decks and upped decks is different.
For example, cards are more expensive unupgraded and your pillars give 1q less, and the free quanta-generating creatures aren't out yet either, so you have to put in more pillars and take out some of the interesting cards.


Firestall: as a player, you need 7 fireballs to kill 150hp opponents; in other words, ai1-3 and pvp are the only places a player can use it at all. Secondly, I've played against it in Gold League arenas with doubledraw and triplemarks and increased health for more stalling power, and I always considered it a free win. (If you're wondering, I played rainbow decks.)

With this last line and going off everything you've said in your relatively long post, all of the cards that you mentioned, according to you (and agreed by me on some points) will not play a big role in a mono deck as it is easily shadowed by a card that will do better in it's place.

There is no other card that will do better in Poseidon | Trident's place. It's a unique card and even the next best weapon, Longsword, doesn't fit well in a water deck.

Your response does appear very aggressive and rude to me. Most of what you bring up are things I have already discussed before; which you somehow don't read. I feel like you're disagreeing with me and at this point are arguing only to prove me wrong, not to contribute to the discussion. Your point being that Poseidon | Trident doesn't need a buff, and you seem to recklessly ignore my words, going to any lengths, even pulling irrelevant cards into the discussion, to try and prove yourself right / me wrong. :/

[Dm]

If it didn't apply to any of the cards I mentioned (While it can be argued Plague and Skeleton are relatively unique, with Charger following suit and other vanilla coming later, possibly to be called "unique" by not being "unique", as in not having a specific ability) you didn't need to go to such great lenghts to tell me that they "don't need a change".

About a lot of un-upgraded cards being very weak, yes.
But:

1) Not all cards are more expensive un-upgraded
2) Your pillars give 1 less quanta for just one turn
3) Free quanta-generating creatures exist when un-upgraded
4) You don't need to place in more pillars and take out interesting cards if you're willing enough.
5) None of this "more expensive", "quanta-generating", "placing pillars" and "interesting cards" is that interesting. Simply put - All I said was that these cards can overshadow others when upgraded, and are simply not used enough when un-upgraded -- This "not used simply" being the basis of my whole post on your phrase that one can't argue that a card does not need a buff/change when it is underused.

Firestall : As a player, Fahrenheit exists and PVP is obviously where firestall should be used. Some decks are free wins against some decks. I am not surprised at all.

There is no other card that will do better in Poseidon | Trident's place

Earthquake!

Literally.

At the last part, I knew it'd come across like that, but if you read the last part, I really don't intend to. I'm just terrible with words.

But, this thing :
"Even pulling unrelated cards into the discussion"

I am sorry, but you went off a phrase that is just downright ridiculous. I named cards that you would either
A) Support your own statement and agree they need a buff, or
B) Disagree with yourself and proceed to tell me they don't need a buff, despite your previous statement saying they should, by definition, need a buff or  change.

As should be clear, B is what happened.

Also:

"Most of what you bring here are things that I have already discussed"
Completely disagrees with
"irrelevant cards into discussion"

Because that means the irrelevant cards were already brought up (they were basically ALL of my last two posts, so there really isn't any other content there than that, eh?), something that I didn't see absolutely anywhere in this thread (Apart from, obviously, my post and yours.)

I would also ask you not to say that I think poseidon/trident does not need a buff. I have not once said that.

As for recklessly ignoring your words, I'm pretty sure I took your words -very- seriously, as you can see when I made two whole posts about a single sentence of yours.

[Zergva]

Anyone checked the poll? There's 9 for no change, 8 for increase damage dealt and 4 for lesser cost.

That's page is only for 1 person saying that "Poseidon needs thematic change" and now we are Off-Topic.

Discuss if Poseidon needs increased dmg or not and let this topic drown (any other thing is not needed by the poll, what a representative thing for the players opinion). I'm for it

[serprex]

Context on four damage: Discord (unupped), Jade Staff (unupped 2), Vampire Stiletto (unupped), Fahrenheit (unupped), Eternity, Arsenic (unupped 2)

Didn't count Other weapons. Note that upped Dirk does 4 base damage. Vampire Stiletto does 8 effective damage (when including healing as damage), Jade Staff does 9 effective damage when including healing (7 unupped). Fahrenheit is moot. Eternity is RT on a stick, which happens to be in element, unlike EQ on a stick. Arsenic's poison damage makes it moot

Discord goes up to 6 damage, and does a similar task as Trident in slowing down a deck (note the lack of an upkeep, and taking effect on the turn it's played) nevermind dischole

Essentially the weapon to compare this to is Eternity. Arguably the duo cost is paid by having Eternity's RT cost relatively more (since EQ costs one more than RT)

[UndeadSpider1990]

I voted it needs a damage buff.

You might have thought something that could destroy three buildings at once could do a little more damage than this fool.

Spoiler for Hidden:

As for my real point, I feel it would get a lot more play if its damage was greater. In my Shard of Patience duo, it's a tough decision between Trident and Hammers because the damage is the same and Hammers are much cheaper. By the time Trident's Earthquaking ability is ready, destroying their pillars has lost a lot of its effectiveness.

With greater damage, players might begin playing it even without just because it's a superior weapon. In other words, people might actually use it in their decks.

We'll still waiting for a "No changes needed" option in the pool, because it's a sort of deceiving.

Elements the Game » Game Suggestions and Feedback » Buff This Card!


I'm not convinced that option is necessary. I think that opinion communicates itself by the fact that Trident has about 20 replies and Fate Egg has over 150.

I think that if the developers plan a buff to Trident, criticisms to leave it as present will come when they release that news.