[Official] Nightmare | Nightmare

[RootRanger]

if your enemy has no resources and his hand is full,

The only way my opponent's hand could be full is if I played a nightmare this turn. If one has a full hand they will be forced to discard a card at the end of the turn.

he will keep having to discard stuff that would otherwise be useful

Assuming you originally meant a 7 card hand when you said full, let me create a hypothetical situation.

Turn 1: I end my turn with 7 cards. My opponent plays nightmare on his turn.
Turn 2: I now have 8 cards and discard the useless card he nightmared.
Turn 3: I have 8 cards, all of them ones that I put in my deck and I must discard something useful if I am unable to play.

Now let's see what happens if my opponent does not play nightmare.

Turn 1: I end my turn with 7 cards.
Turn 2: I have 8 cards, all of them ones that I put in my deck and I must discard something useful if I am unable to play.

In the situation you described nightmare is either unable to be played or not worth using.

[MXXE]

Now build a deck around nightmare that doesn't require a specific fractal/hourglass opponent... Nightmare photons with neurotoxin? Already discussed, only effective against AI and Emo's. Nightmare photons with solar shield. A new one, but either you have to play the shield after he played the photons or it is only effective against AI and Stupid's. Other Ideas?

those are all valid points you have there. nightmare, however, does not have entirely 0 efficiency. the time you're supposed to use it is when your opponent is struggling with resources and cannot put their newly drawn cards into play and thus miss another turn. basically this card is awesome in denial decks that use stuff like earthquake/quicksand and other things like that. it is also good in rainbow decks that use lots of hourglasses. it also works with reverse times. in other words it's a specialist card best used in exclusive tactics just like dissipation field, trident, and others of the kind.

You absolutely convinced me about the +reverse time thing.
Not about the +quicksand thing: I play mono fire, you play nightmare+eartquake. If you play earthquake, I can't play my dragon. If you play earthquake and nightmare one of your creatures (black dragon), I can't play my dragon... Result's the same. If you play earthquake and nightmare my crimson dragon, I can't play my dragon... If you DON'T play earthquake, and you nightmare my crimsen dragon... well... thank you!
The only use of nightmaring my crimsons is the rare case, that next drawn card would be an immolation. That is called "procastinating the inevitable".

[RootRanger]

it also works with reverse times

You absolutely convinced me about the +reverse time thing.

Let's create a hypothetical situation. In the first example they have nightmare and reverse time. In the second example they only have reverse time.

Turn 1: I end my turn with 7 cards. My opponent plays nightmare on his turn. He also uses reverse time on my creature.
Turn 2: I now have 8 cards and discard the useless card he nightmared. I end my turn with 7 cards.
Turn 3: I draw my creature and play it.

Here my opponent does not use nightmare.

Turn 1: I end my turn with 7 cards. My opponent uses reverse time on my creature.
Turn 2: I draw my creature and play it.

In the example with nightmare my opponent uses 4 quantum and 2 draws to slow me down by 2 draws and the quantum cost of my creature. In the example without nightmare my opponent uses 2 quantum and 1 draw to slow me down by 1 draw and the quantum cost of my creature. The cost of draws cancel eachother out; thus, the option without nightmare is better.

[MXXE]

In the example with nightmare my opponent uses 4 quantum and 2 draws to slow me down by 2 draws and the quantum cost of my creature. In the example without nightmare my opponent uses 2 quantum and 1 draw to slow me down by 1 draw and the quantum cost of my creature. The cost of draws cancel eachother out; thus, the option without nightmare is better.

You are right, it is usually better. The point is: usually. If I play a very specialised deck, that does only need more time, but not more draws (for example for pharaos to produce scarabs) then nightmare has some use.
But yeah... veeeery limited use, since 1 nighmare + 1 reverse times has nearly the same effect as 2 reverse time in one turn. And it's mono.

I think we could stop the discussion if nightmare is UP or not, and we should think how to change it.

Maybe make it add 1 darkness quanta for every card added to your opponets hand with nightmare's other effect?

Add this to the poll

[Jappert]

Allthough I admit I only use it for fun.

It's not that bad in some occasions, when playing vs FG's it can slow them down considerably. Considering the extremely low cost, I don't think it should be changed.

Longdono's suggestion is nice though.

[RootRanger]

A new time card (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20160.0.html) recently entered development, indirectly buffing nightmare. While the mechanics of nightmare have not been changed, it now has a powerful use outside of countering fractal and hourglass decks. Yay!

Thanks for everyone who made a post saying to buff nightmare; we have something just as good, a card that has great synergy with nightmare.

[Kael Hate]

As Master of Darkness, I have gathered the better suggestions and details about Buffing Nightmare.

Nightmare NAME: Nightmare Darkness ELEMENT: Darkness 2 COST: 1 Spell TYPE: Spell ATK|HP: Fill your opponent's hand with copies of the target creature's card. TEXT: Fill your opponent's hand with copies of the target creature's card.

STRENGTHS: WEAKNESSES: - Denies the Opponent a Single Draw  - Meta Fractal - Negative effect if Opponent can play the creature  - Negative Card Advantage  - Lockdown by Mindgate

Future Combo
- "Ghost of the past" (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20160.0.html) a card currently in development for 1.27. It offers a weak combo with Nightmare so that the opponent will take some minor damage balanacing their hand after each Nightmare. It has mixed opinions but because it does not overcome any of nightmares weaknesses, will do little.

Needs a Buff
- It has been accepted that Nightmare is currently very weak and needs something to offset the weaknesses. There have been some suggestions.

Suggestions Add "Draw a Card" - This will offset the Card disadvantage but retain the nature of the cards Gimmick. It will speed up the play for the Nightmare user but still leave him exposed to the player who can play the creature or who has mindgate. Make the Card Given by Nightmare Redundant Ie an unplayable Relic - This overcomes the weakness when facing players who could otherwise cast the nightmare creature. It has the disadvantage that it ruins the gimmick, prevents combos with creatures and giving assets and makes the upcoming Ghosts text near meaningless. Add "Destroy the Creature if it is Light" - This adds a minor card advantage effect and turns nightmare into relative CC like the card Holy Flash. Ruins the gimmick if you need it to block your opponets draw and does nothing for most other conflicts, Add "The Opponent Takes 3-5 Damage per card Given" - This also tries to add a card advantage my making nightmare a direct damage spell. The faster your opponent rushes the more he will get hit by the nightmare. In most cases tho the first nightmare will be the worst and the rest likely to do but 1 set of damage. Add "Gain 2 quanta for each card placed into the opponents hand" - This option rushes you forward in quanta to be able to offset the loss of the card and also makes the nightmare a meta for rushes.

Vote in the polls so Zanz can see how we think about it.
Post your Opinion if you have one?

[OldTrees]

Wow. Great Suggestions. I am torn between 1,4 and 5. I think 4 fits the best thematically of those three.

[BluePriest]

Although I have no idea how this could even be implemented what about forcing the opponent to discard half the cards they gained or something like that. I know this is a direct synergy with GotP, so I dont see much use to it, just throwing something out there though, regardless it needs buffed.

[Kael Hate]

Although I have no idea how this could even be implemented what about forcing the opponent to discard half the cards they gained or something like that. I know this is a direct synergy with GotP, so I dont see much use to it, just throwing something out there though, regardless it needs buffed.

So when cast for every 2 cards they are given they immediately discard one of those cards?

That makes Nightmare weaker in every situation except with GotP. I don't understand the reasoning.

[Nepycros]

You definitely need some kind of card that actually has something to do with a Nightmare. In Nightmares, wouldn't the thing you think could help you be your worst opponent? I say it should fill your hand with the target creature, but that creature has the passive skill 'Horrific'.

Horrific: All creatures with the passive skill 'horrific' attack their owner 60% of the time. Scarier than the normal Nightmare, don'cha think?

[LongDono]

That might be hard to code Nep, idk. Giving a passive skill to a card in hand just seems hard. I like the idea though because it will most certainly become a powerful PvE card.