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Offline RootRanger

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Re: Nightmare | Nightmare https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14687.msg247615#msg247615
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2011, 09:13:43 pm »
- Change Malignant Cell card to a high cost card (like 10 poison elements). Malignant Cell is not a card that we can obtain/use, so I think it makes sense to do this. That way, when you Nightmare with Malignant Cell, your opponent is stuck with costly useless cards for a long time.
Yes, but your opponent does not have to play them. Your opponent only loses one draw. Drawing nightmare, however, costed the user of nightmare both a draw and quantum.

Maybe make it add 1 darkness quanta for every card added to your opponets hand with nightmare's other effect?
I like this idea. Useful, not OP, fun.
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LongDono

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Re: Nightmare | Nightmare https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14687.msg247732#msg247732
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2011, 12:07:05 am »
Ya it would still not be as good as something like silence but with my fix it would be an awesome early game card.

killybob

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Re: Nightmare | Nightmare https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14687.msg247735#msg247735
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2011, 12:09:17 am »
hey i really like that idea!

Ignion

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Re: Nightmare | Nightmare https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14687.msg247989#msg247989
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2011, 07:19:31 am »
- Change Malignant Cell card to a high cost card (like 10 poison elements). Malignant Cell is not a card that we can obtain/use, so I think it makes sense to do this. That way, when you Nightmare with Malignant Cell, your opponent is stuck with costly useless cards for a long time.
Yes, but your opponent does not have to play them. Your opponent only loses one draw. Drawing nightmare, however, costed the user of nightmare both a draw and quantum.

Actually, there's more than that. Think about how many people use cards like hourglass. I've played against many users who drew like 3 cards every turn. With the way malignant cell is right now, they can just put them all out on their field and draw those cards. Sure there's risk involved with playing malignant cells, but they can actually use that to their advantages in many cases too. For example, they could have mutation, otyugh, immolation, etc. Maligant cell & Nightmare combo as the way Malignant cell is leaves way too much room for backfire.

Offline RootRanger

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Re: Nightmare | Nightmare https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14687.msg248364#msg248364
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2011, 07:38:26 pm »
Actually, there's more than that. Think about how many people use cards like hourglass. I've played against many users who drew like 3 cards every turn.
Hourglass and fractal give nightmare a use and tempo gain, but that is it. Just two cards is not enough to make it useful.

With the way malignant cell is right now, they can just put them all out on their field and draw those cards. Sure there's risk involved with playing malignant cells, but they can actually use that to their advantages in many cases too. For example, they could have mutation, otyugh, immolation, etc. Maligant cell & Nightmare combo as the way Malignant cell is leaves way too much room for backfire.
I never said there was a use to the current malignant cell/nightmare combo. It's a terrible combination and it looks like you realize that.
The malignant cell you suggested, however, does not make nightmare a useful card (outside of countering hourglass and fractal). I don't see why you think it is a good idea to give them cards they cannot play. Even if you were able to nightmare a card that is unplayable nightmare would not be useful. Being stuck with a useless card in your hand is not a problem unless it stops you from drawing. Nightmare only stops you from drawing one turn. After that, you either do not mind the useless cards in your hand or you can discard them if you need room.
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killybob

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Re: Nightmare | Nightmare https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14687.msg248541#msg248541
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2011, 10:38:11 pm »
i 50% agree with rootranger. yes nightmare has only a very temporary effect but then it is mainly only used as a stalling card, not a brilliant, perpetual, game winning card. besides, low cost (both with quanta and electrum) low efficiency. to buff it now would knock it out of balance. to put it back in balance you would have to nerf it a bit as well by increasing the cost. after so much change it would no longer be nightmare any more but something entirely different. no, it would be better to leave it be and simply put an completely new card idea in the crucible.

MXXE

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Re: Nightmare | Nightmare https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14687.msg249024#msg249024
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2011, 12:55:13 pm »
[...] yes nightmare has only a very temporary effect but then it is mainly only used as a stalling card, not a brilliant, perpetual, game winning card. [...]
I agree that it is not a brilliant game winning card. But as a stall card it also doesn't do much. You have to draw it, right? You could draw a devourer instead, which in most situations will be better. This card would perfectly work as a stalling card, for making the opponent skip their draw, if there was no disadvantage for you. But the disadvantage is, that you have to draw it. It takes space in your deck. Letting your opponent skip a draw will make you not draw a different card.

[...] low cost [...] low efficiency. [...]
That is a good guideline to go after. My problem is that nightmare is a "low cost no efficiency" card. You loose as many draws as the opponent for that low cost.
Look at sundial (For my reasoning I leave the  :light-part out, which makes it a one  :time mono card). It is low cost, thus it has low efficiency (works one turn) and tradeoffs (your creatures also do not attack). But it is possible to build a deck around it if you do it right. Even a fake-god-killer deck!

Now build a deck around nightmare that doesn't require a specific fractal/hourglass opponent... Nightmare photons with neurotoxin? Already discussed, only effective against AI and Emo's. Nightmare photons with solar shield. A new one, but either you have to play the shield after he played the photons or it is only effective against AI and Stupid's. Other Ideas?

[...] to buff it now would knock it out of balance. to put it back in balance you would have to nerf it a bit as well by increasing the cost. [...]
It depends on the change. Look at the purify buff (the unupgraded card): From removing poison, it was changed to remove poison + 1 healing counter.

[...] after so much change it would no longer be nightmare any more but something entirely different. [...]
I'm split  :-\ on this point
On the one side, changing carapace shield (that was identical to skull shield) to what it is today or the recent solar shield change were awesome, the cards are also perfectly balanced.
On the other side, the change to the white nymph, while being perfectly balanced, made me mad. I can understand why big changes are not the best thing.
The solution is to make a minor buff, like the purify one.

A comparison: If you run into a poison deck with purify, and you use purify when you are at 12 poison, you "remove" 13 poison (since there is the +1 healing thing). If you run into a non-poison deck, you can "remove" 1 poison (since you go from zero poison "damage" to -1 poison "damage"). This costs you one card/draw and 1  :water. One quanta for one (anti-)damage? That is like a gnome rider, + it cannot be removed! OP? You also play purify earlier on if you see a mono fire or so...
If you run into a fractal/drawing deck with nightmare, and you can put 5 creatures in his hand, thats 5 creatures less for his fractal, and definitely a slow-down for his drawing. If you run into any other deck, you can make him skip a draw. This costs you just as much, 1 card/draw, plus 2 :darkness. You will probably not play it much earlier agains a mono fire than agains fractal/drawing decks.

It is a too hard counter, thus noone will fatten his deck for those 5% of games that will feature a fractal/hourglass oponent (from which 3% are also winnable with a good rush), thus nightmare is never used. Thus fractal has no counter that it will actually meet.

killybob

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Re: Nightmare | Nightmare https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14687.msg249066#msg249066
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2011, 02:29:28 pm »
those are all valid points you have there. nightmare, however, does not have entirely 0 efficiency. the time you're supposed to use it is when your opponent is struggling with resources and cannot put their newly drawn cards into play and thus miss another turn. basically this card is awesome in denial decks that use stuff like earthquake/quicksand and other things like that. it is also good in rainbow decks that use lots of hourglasses. it also works with reverse times. in other words it's a specialist card best used in exclusive tactics just like dissipation field, trident, and others of the kind.

Offline RootRanger

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Re: Nightmare | Nightmare https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14687.msg249077#msg249077
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2011, 02:42:51 pm »
Unless your opponent has the rare hourglass or fractal, nightmare slows you down by a draw and 2 quantum while only slowing the opponent down by a draw.

That is how it has no efficiency.
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killybob

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Re: Nightmare | Nightmare https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14687.msg249101#msg249101
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2011, 03:12:38 pm »
as i said it's good in denial decks cos once the person's hand is full of nightmared cards and he can't afford his own newly drawn cards he's completely buggered. this is one use for nightmare

Offline RootRanger

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Re: Nightmare | Nightmare https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14687.msg249114#msg249114
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2011, 03:37:38 pm »
His draw is prevented for one turn. However, drawing the card nightmare prevents you from drawng another card, thus preventing your own draw for one turn. Nightmare also costs quantum to play. I don't see how you don't get it.
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killybob

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Re: Nightmare | Nightmare https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14687.msg249130#msg249130
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2011, 04:02:53 pm »
i don,t see how your not getting my point. if your enemy has no resources and his hand is full, he will keep having to discard stuff that would otherwise be useful once he'd got rid of the nightmared cards. he would not have to do this, however, if his opponent had not played nightmare.

 

anything
blarg: