[Official] Lycanthrope | Werewolf

[Rutarete]

Please take a look at http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,10223.0.html

[choongmyoung]

As said above, 3 duo = 4 mono, so this is balanced.
If you say that starting 1|1 is too weak, I suggest 3|3 starting and +3|+3 buffing.

[willng3]

I think one problem with changing its starting stats and how much Lycanthropy increases its attack/HP currently is that Lycanthropy also has a +5/+5 stat increase for mutants as well.  If people are fine with nerfing the boost that those get then I guess it's okay.  On the other hand, I'm not okay with Lycanthrope being buffed to 3 attack for the same cost given that it would completely outshine other cheap 3 attack creatures.

Personally I find myself using Chaos Power over Werewolf in Speedbows mainly because I dislike the delay in a 1|1 creature becoming a 6|6 creature.  There are probably other scenarios where it works very well in, but I'm Master of Life and not Entropy for a reason.

[Calindu]

Looks like I've been called.
As it stands now, Lycan is mostly used in unupped rainbows and / duos.
The only change I would do is starting with 2/2, would allow him to survive a fire shield on first turn and every point of damage counts.

[cometbah]

At the end of turn 4, and assuming constant growth where available:

Lava Destroyer has a D/T/Q of exactly 1.25.

Werewolf has a D/T/Q of approximately 1.583.

Werewolf has the higher adjusted offensive value, and is vulnerable to Thunderbolt for only 1/4 turns;
Lava Destroyer has the lower adjusted offensive value, and is vulnerable to Thunderbolt for 3/4 turns.

Werewolf has the lower initial cost.
Lava Destroyer has the higher initial cost.

Conclusion:

Werewolf is sufficiently powerful, even with extreme vulnerability at turn 1.


Further statistical details:

Adding to my table from the previous post the consideration of vulnerability to 1~2 Thunderbolt(s):

Steam Machine:
DTQ 0.9
0 turns of vulnerability to 1 Thunderbolt; 0 turns to 2 Thunderbolts

Forest Spectre:
DTQ 0.95
2 turns of vulnerability to Thunderbolt; 4 turns to 2 Thunderbolts

Lava Destroyer:
DTQ 1.1
3 turns of vulnerability to Thunderbolt; 5 turns to 2 Thunderbolts

Graboid/Shrieker (burrowed whenever possible) *:
DTQ 1.3
1 turn of vulnerability to Thunderbolt; 1 turn to 2 Thunderbolts

Werewolf:
DTQ 1.9
1 turn of vulnerability to Thunderbolt; Always vulnerable to 2 Thunderbolts

Graboid/Shrieker (unburrowed whenever possible):
DTQ 2.4
Almost always vulnerable to Thunderbolt; Almost always vulnerable to 2 Thunderbolts

*The general trend is increasing DTQ resulting in increasing vulnerability.

The only anomaly is Graboid/Shrieker when constantly burrowed (highlighted).

Statistically, the attack value of a burrowed Graboid/Shrieker should only be approximately 3.48 to be considered 'balanced' in relation to the rest of these creatures.

[kimham8a]

Problem:
Growth creatures SHOULD have a lower dtq because you don't need to play more creatures after that to increase damage. Steam machine, horrible dtq, but one of these equals playing an extra 2 lycans per 3 turns by pure damage.

[russianspy1234]

in element butterfly effect could be a factor. raising its starting power to 3 as choongmyoung suggested would take it out of range, and would leave Entropy almost nothing in element to use with it.

[Elbirn]

I would support a +1|+1 Buff, with Lyncanthropy adding +4|+4.
But I think the card is absolutely fine as it is.

[Lluis83]

I think that Werewolf and Lycanthrope should be effected by Eclipse, that would be a small buff.

[Tirear]

Let's look at this from an upgrading perspective. Normally, an upgrade is worth 1-2 , meaning that the upgraded form is that much cheaper or has that much better stats. Some cards have more drastic changes when upgraded, but they still are about that much better. (For example, a minor phoenix has lower stats than a phoenix. But a minor phoenix is clearly better than an unupped frog, and about as good as an upped frog. Unupped phoenixes are not similarly superior to unupped creatures around the same cost (nymphs) and are worse than upped cards of around the same cost (AAngel). So we can see that minor phoenix is a more powerful card overall, even if it fills a different enough role that could lead to someone preferring the unupped version).

When lycanthrope is upgraded, its skill cost decreases by 1. Normally, a skill cost decrease would be more valuable than a card cost decrease, since you benefit from that reduction more than once per card. Werewolf, however, only gets to use its skill once. Consequently, the difference from a card cost reduction is that you have more time to generate that extra quanta anyways, and you will not benefit from the upgrade if it is hit with turn 1 CC. Therefore, werewolf's upgrade bonus is worth less than 1 .

Since the benefit from upgrading is so small, either lycanthrope must be OP for an unupped card, werewolf must be UP for an upgraded card, or some combination thereof.

[ColorlessGreen]

My $0.02 is that lycan/werewolf is almost completely balanced as-is, and it gets a not-insignificant degree of use in unupped rainbows. Also, Tirear has a good point about upgrade boosting.

I'm inclined to believe that unupped lycan is just fine, as it's a pretty highly used card and is extremely effective in speedbows. The fact that it requires two quanta each from two different elements is actually an advantage over a card that requires four quanta from one element if you're playing a novabow, and entropy is known for cards which play well in rainbows. This doesn't bother me.

Upped lycan, as tirear points out, gains little in exchange for the 1500 electrum, whether considering the card itself, considering the card as compared to other upped cards, or considering the direct benefits of upgrade.

For specific changes, I would recommend that unupped lycan receive no buff whatsoever, or at most a +0/+1 buff enabling it to survive against fire shield long enough to use its ability. I believe upped lycan should be boosted to 2/2, which would keep it in BE range but give it a bit more of a boost and possibly get it some more use when upped.

edit: I would recommend against nerfing the ability in one of the situations that were described before (i.e. 2/2 base creature with +4/+4 ability) as I would find the indirect nerf to mutate to be of greater harm to the game as a whole than the boost to lycan would be a benefit.

[Aneninen]

How about buffin its initial stats to 1|3 ?
It still can be a subject of the Butterfly Effect but, it evades Fire Shield, Thunderstorm, Desiccation, unupgraded Otyugh. That is something. (It can be still targeted with Fire Lance, Fire Storm, Eagle Eye, upgraded Otyugh, Shockwave, Lightning, and most probably Siphon Life and Cold Ray – just like all the other growing creatures.)