[Official] Lightning | Thunderbolt

[Taglio]

Hello everybody.

premise: maybe there are calculations that I'm not aware of. In this case please, let me know where I can learn more about these balance issues.

on topic: lately lightning storm has been buffed, together with dessiccation they make a great couple of cards: they are finally useful and , well, pretty good (I mean, I consider putting them in any rainbow deck I make, lately...).

what puzzles me is that they deal damage to ALL the creature on the field, there are a lot of cards and strategies based on having lots of small (and not so small) creatures on the field (SoFreedom for example, and they are EVERYWHERE), so these cards are very good, even if limited at 6 per deck.

On the other hand Lightning / thunderbold deals 5 damage and could be used against opponent as well. Sure, important thing... But you cannot kill opponent with 6 thunderbolts (30 damages at most - useless against arena decks).
Also more and more creatures are growing beyond 5 hp, some even arrive to the point of being untouchable.
I mean, how do you kill a titan 'dancing' weapon?

I don't know if an escalation of lighining to 6 or more damages (6? 7? 10?) could be the solution, but maybe upped thunderbolts should (or could) deal more than mere damage.
maybe they can lay effects to the stricken creature (lobotomize them?).
And, even if the card could deal 10 damage on one shot... well, it's still only 6 creatures on the field to die or 60 damages dealt to the opponent. Many creatures deal more damage for the same amount of cards slot occupied.

Maybe my calculations are all wrong, just let me know, but I cannot find much use for lightning/thunderbolt in my decks right now, so I wanted to point it out ...

thanks everybody

Taglio

[Dm]

10 DMG would be OP. Most creatures are around the range of 5 HP. I don't really see the reason to buff this card that could be considered one of the best single target CC in the game. You also forgot to count the fact that this card is -very- cheap (2 quanta un-upped and just one! upgraded. If it dealt 10 dmg, it would have to come with an according quanta increased cost. 60 dmg for 6 quanta is odd at the very least.)

(PS: You forgot to include a poll as per the Buff This Card section rules. And the card image.)

More specifically, this thread.

Spoiler for Hidden:

Images :

[Youpla]

I don't feel this card need to be buffed.

The stats speaks for themselves, it's the first CC used unupped, and the first single target CC upped : http://www.elementsthegame.com/liststats.php

[timetock]

Lightning/thunderbolt is especially useful in rainbow and decks because you usually kill one creature with this card combined with maybe some other cc. Sure, it's not that useful in Arena, but arena is HARD. It's meant to be hard, and some creatures are meant to shrug off even 5 damage. This card works very well in AI3 and maybe PVP, but of course not Arena. I'm sorry, but there are just some cards that aren't useful in some decks at some point.

[omegareaper7]

Yes, because lightning bolt should be the single strongest CC card in the game.

The thing already 6s roughly 2/3 creatures in every single deck, why make it kill 9/10 of all creatures? Arena is not what balance is based on FYI, pvp is. And I can ensure you, its very strong there.

[Higurashi]

This is the first time I've ever heard -anyone- saying Lightning should be buffed. So you're balancing single CC vs. mass-CC. Here's the problem: Aether has plenty of control. With mass-CC, it'd be hellish. Water? Not so hellish, despite Dessication. Air? Still easier to break through despite more CC.

Having a spell that does 5 HP damage is arguably worth more than having one spell that does 4 and one spell that does 2 to all. Why? Because the vast majority of all efficient attackers have 5 HP or less. This means you take them out with ONE card instead of TWO, and you do it FAST (unlike with OE). To add insult to injury, Lightning ALSO costs less than two Shockwaves or a Shockwave and a Thunderstorm or an OE (the latter makes complete sense of course due to other factors).

As long as you can take down efficient attackers, that's all you need in a CC card. That's why Lightning is the single most valued CC spell in War and other events. Graboid, Ghost, Toadie, ALL unupped dragons that do 10 damage except Emerald.. Lightning has more often been discussed to need +1 cost to be balanced, and as a two-time Master of Aether I can honestly say it would be fair and not even hurt Aether much (rainbows more).

That's Lightning.. let's discuss Thunderbolt compared to upped creatures. The main difference here is that we get a few more efficient attackers with more than 5 HP, and we also get many Dragons that go over 5 HP. In the upped meta, you see Thunderbolt a lot less than you see Lightning in the unupped meta for these two reasons. Blue Crawler, Steel Golem, Sky Dragon, Obsidian Dragon, Amethyst Dragon.. the list goes on. Here I would say Thunderbolt is balanced.

That said, I've always wanted Lightning/Thunderbolt to scale with quanta a little bit. Not much, just something like +1 damage per 20 quanta. That way it'd be strong in the upped meta and give Aether a way to use the excess quanta it so often accumulates due to expensive cards like Dims and Phase Dragons. But it doesn't need it.

[Taglio]

wow,
I didn't expect to raise such a defense of the card as it is.
please all, calm down, I didn't meant to hurt anybody's feelings.

first of all ok about lightning.
As I said I play almost only in arena - I don't see lightning used all that much, but I trust you it could still be ok against unupped creatures (thanks Higurashi for the detailed explanation).

On the other hand I still feel that something could be done about thunderbolt against other upped cards (creatures, mainly).
I mean, before I just made some examples of how it could be buffed - it doesn't have to be a 10-damage-vs-1-quanta-cost-ubercard.

I just point out that it takes 1 card slot to deal damage in an amount which is not enough to counter a greater number of creatures - not useless, sure, but still a bit ... how can I say, below the par, maybe.
because in arena I see plenty of decks that either kill you with tons of weenies (not only damsels, but also fractal, mithosis, upped phoenix, elite queens, etc,...) or with single creatures that are absolutely impervious against thunderbolt.
Earth dragon is cake: just 2 bolts and it's gone.
The problem is that light dragon. That flying Titan, any damned steam machine

So, how about just giving it a lobotomize effect? or some other little advantage even if at an higher quanta cost, or maybe the scaling damage suggested by Higurashi.

I hope I cleared my point without offense to anybody: please, consider thie thread only meant to discuss about thunderbolt (and not lightning)

thanks

Taglio

PS: sorry dm1321 for the missing poll / image thing. Maybe I will open a new thread to this effect
PPS: ok, added poll right now  8) (and it's my first poll  )

[Chapuz]

It's just the strongest CC. Compare it with Shockwave, no one uses its soft insta-kill so lightning is just better.

[omegareaper7]

If you wanna buff lightning, your going to have to buff nearly all other CC first.

[Higurashi]

Yes, SoFree made single-target CC weaker and mass-CC stronger. Quite a bit too considering not all elements have PC. Again that problem with the game balance pops up. The solution isn't to buff Thunderbolt though, as it's still mostly top of the line despite the upped meta.

[Lech]

Wow, someone want to buff the best single target cc in the game just to make it better for arena. Don't. Arena is just one of the aspects of the game, and balance should be done for player versus player first and foremost.