[Official] Immortal | Elite Immortal

[Norbert Hawk]

Personally I think it do not worth upgrading it! Phase Recluses do a way better job, and even cheaper to summon! I know they are not Immortal, but at least you can use Parallel Universe on it and even buff it up with anything! Even Fractal.

[OldTrees]

overshadowed is a good word to use. atm elite immortal is most likely used less than phase recluse which has both lees health and is NOT immortal. the elite immortal is supposed to be an iconic card to aether and at the moment it rather disappoints. buffing it's attack is the only viable option.

Cutting its cost is an equally viable option. If Immortal is balanced then a -1 or -2 cost reduction as an upgrade from Immortal would cause a balanced Elite Immortal.
Aether has Phase Dragon for the high attack Immortal. Elite Immortal can be a mid attack like its unupped form.

[Higurashi]

It could if you, once again, ignore the value per card played. You wouldn't Quint an attacker at 4, and in the same manner it's not worth a card space with too low attack. You have to remember that there is more to balance than only quanta cost; card space is the highest cost any card can have.

Low-attack creatures are mostly used in conjunction with either buffs or quanta acceleration. Aether has neither, and it's not its theme either.

[OldTrees]

It could if you, once again, ignore the value per card played. You wouldn't Quint an attacker at 4, and in the same manner it's not worth a card space with too low attack. You have to remember that there is more to balance than only quanta cost; card space is the highest cost any card can have.

Low-attack creatures are mostly used in conjunction with either buffs or quanta acceleration. Aether has neither, and it's not its theme either.

Pardon my ignorance then. From earlier in the thread I got a false impression that the unupped was acceptable and thus a cost decrease and an hp increase as an upgrade would satisfy both those in favor and the few opposed to a buff for the upgraded.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to how much of a cost inflation an immortal creature should have? I would assume it would be a linear function of attack for a semi vanilla creature.

[Higurashi]

That's a good compromise, as good as compromises now can get. I'm not sure the cost inflation is linear though. As with normal creatures, the more worth you get out of a single card, the more quanta it has to cost. However, with the current game mechanics, there are very few ways of stopping immortal damage. It's a bit like Poison in that respect.

So, the cost increase curve gets steeper the more attack it has. That's why we get 2 Immortals for 12 , but a Phase Dragon costs 13 , and it's also why 7 seems more consistent than 6 for Elite Immortal since two of those make for one Elite Phase Dragon. However, since we get more card worth out of one Elite Phase Dragon, Elite Immortal should cost less to be worth the card space just like two Immortals cost less than one Phase Dragon for the same total attack.

A more general problem both Immortal and Elite Immortal suffer with is damage reduction and CC shields. When you plan for immortal damage, you need to 1) keep your total damage potential relatively high so that your stalling isn't for naught and 2) make sure your damage stays like it's supposed to. Otherwise you will fizzle out. Thanks to the current game mechanics, this gives Phase Dragon even -more- card value as it has higher attack and more HP.

If we assume Phase Dragon is balanced (it seems to be in the current environment), the cost equation is as follows:
8 attack +2 (Immortal) +1 (HP > 5) = 11

The equation for Immortal: 4 attack +2 (Immortal) = 6

Phase Dragon ends up at 11 cost, but has to cost more since its worth is greater in card space. The scaling seems to be +1 cost for each 4 attack. Similarly, if it had 20 attack, the cost would have to scale enormously. The more attack, the more card worth. Of course, there's a practical limit to this as well. Something costing 20 quanta rarely gets to come to use due to the tempo of the game.

For Elite Immortal:
5 attack +2 (Immortal) = 7.
7 - 1 (for lower card space value) = 6.

This means we get 10 attack for the cost of 2 cards (Elite Immortals) and 12 , whereas Elite Phase Dragon would be 10 damage for 1 card and 14 . Elite Phase Dragon maintains the +2 cost for card advantage that Phase Dragon has, and Elite Immortal becomes more useful. I think that's about as close to balanced as it gets when the fact is that immortal damage is more useful when condensed into fewer cards.

The question is.. is there a way to increase the attack of unupped Immortal and balance the cost? I've tried, but it becomes unbalanced with either Phase Dragon or Elite Immortal. :/
Let me know if you spot any logical fallacies in my reasoning. I'm not 100% sure I'm objective, after all.

[killybob]

i'm not immensely knowledgeable about the subject of balancing but that does seem accurate. ok lets say that immortal is balance but has too low an attack to make a massive difference and is thus unused. what needs doing is increasing the attack to a level of acceptability without making it too much like a mini phase dragon. this will provide availability of a higher damage rate and reduce the need to waste space by swarming them to do significant damage. additionally it will provide a point to having it quinted (you really wouldn't use up valuable quintessences up on a creature with no ability and no effect). a different buff could be tried out. it may be viable to give it an ability in addition to its being immaterial. this could come with a lowering in attack.

[OldTrees]

So your theory Higurashi is that
Phase Dragon costs 2 more because it has card advantage but Elite Phase Dragon has a 2 increase and Elite Immortal has a 1 decrease? Just going off the +2 for card advantage:

Cost of 1 Phase Dragon is 13 +1draw~=15
Cost of 2 Immortals is 2x6+2draws ~=14

Cost of 1 Elite Phase Dragon is 14 +1draw+1upgrade~=17.5
Cost of 2 Elite Immortals is 2x7+2draws+2upgrades ~=19

Assumptions:
each draw is worth 2
each upgrade is worth 1.5

This convinced me that you are right that:
5|4 for 6 upgraded would be more fair than the current version regardless of actual valuations for Immortality.

Cost of 1 Elite Phase Dragon is 14 +1draw+1upgrade~=17.5
Cost of 2 Elite Immortals (with -1casting cost) is 2x6+2draws+2upgrades ~=17

4|4 for 5 upgraded would still work but would break the symmetry.

5|4 for 6 upgraded

[Xenocidius]

I don't think I even need to explain this one.

Well, OK, in theory it's fairly balanced. Half the cost of Phase Dragon for half the attack. In practice though, it's barely ever used. In fact, I've only really seen it used alongside 6 Phase Dragons.

I'll admit I'm relatively new (1.25+) and have pieced this bit of history together like a jigsaw, so feel free to correct me:

Immortal was made before Quintessence and was at that time the only creature that couldn't be targeted, making it incredibly unique, and a staple card of Aether. However, with the introduction of Parallel Universe, Phase Dragon was also given immateriality so that PU couldn't be abused. And Immortal hasn't been changed accordingly.

There is a wide variety of things that can be done here, such as lowering the cost, increasing the stats or nerfing Phase Dragon.

[Calindu]

No buff needed,Immortal can rush better then dragons.

[RagingAlien]

Aether generally has high-cost creatures, and putting this with any lower cost would mean about the cost of a creature, let's say Life, with those stats and the immortality.

Increasing attack would make it drastically better, having half the cost of a dragon for more than half the attack.

I'd need OT's quanta balancing formulas for this, but i think the only possible approach that would not make Phase Dragon useless would be to decrease the upped's cost by one, without changing it's stats.

[zse]

http://www.elementsthegame.com/liststats.php
Immortal   920   (U)   90
Phase Dragon   1175   (U)   233
Phase Spider   250   (U)   121

Immortal is played enough to prove some people think it's OK. No buff needed.

[RootRanger]

http://www.elementsthegame.com/liststats.php
Immortal   920   (U)   90
Phase Dragon   1175   (U)   233
Phase Spider   250   (U)   121

Immortal is played enough to prove some people think it's OK. No buff needed.

Most players do not make strong and optimized decks. In competitive play, Immortal is actually almost never used.

Also, before voting, make sure to read these posts.

In mono aether Phase Dragons are almost always better. A phase dragon + pillar instead of 2 immortals usually lowers QI and does more damage against a fire shield. In a rainbow no one would use immortals when they have phase spiders, dimensional shields, silences, mindgates, quints, and lobotomizers to fill aether's space. Immortals are only really useful if you know you will face a gravity shield, but you can almost never count on that.

an immortal is a phase spider and uint in one. Phase spider (4/3 for 3) + uintessence (immortality for 4) = immortal (4/3 and immortality for 6) It reduces the cost and fits the 2 cards nicely into one space.

The cost of quintessence may be 4, but its value depends on the card. For example, using quintessence on a spark would be worthless, but using a quintessence on a plate armored otyugh would be very valuable. For a spark, immortality would have a value of 0. For a photon, immortality would have a value of roughly 1 because it is not very important that the photon is immaterial. For a creature with just 4 damage, immortality is not very useful. It would probably be worth 2 quantum, even though it costs four. Have you ever seen someone use quitessence on a 4-damage creature? No, because the immortality of the creature is not as important of having that extra 4 quantum and extra card. Thus, the value of immortality for a 4-damage creature is significantly less than the cost of quintessence. Basically, you wouldn't waste a quintessence on such a weak and unimportant creature.

As one final reason to consider
2 Immortals vs 1 Phase Dragon
Cost: 12quanta +2cards vs 13quanta +1card
Effect: 8Immortal Damage vs 8Immortal Damage
Looks balanced if played in a deck that does not run short of cards to play (note Aether's high cost, high effect Dim Shield)

12 quanta + 2 cards is more expensive than 13 quanta + 1 card. And why?
Electrum Hourglass.
It costs 1 quanta to gain a card, however, the hourglass originally costed 4 quanta and a card. For example, if you draw 4 cards with the hourglass, you will have spent 1 card and 8 quanta. The average cost of each card would be 2 quanta and 0.25 cards. Say you draw 10 cards. The average cost of each card would be 1.4 quanta and 0.1 cards. No matter how many cards you draw, the average cost of a card is greater than 1 quanta. With the Golden Hourglass the average cost of each card is greater than 2 quanta. Thus, the value of 12 quanta + 2 cards > 13 quanta + 1 card, but 8 Immortal Damage = 8 Immortal Damage. The cost of two immortals exceeds the cost of a phase dragon, but the value of two immortals is equal to the value of the phase dragon. Thus, the Immortal is weaker than the Phase Dragon.