[Official] Fate Egg | Fate Egg

[SnoWeb]

Fourth in combo with Maxwell it is an efficient CC.

It's not efficient at all: you're using two cards just to handle one enemy creature. Using Mutation on your opponent's creature is almost always a bad idea if your only CC is Maxwell's Demon. Mutation just isn't as good of a CC cards as other options.

FYI, This deck is an excellent deck. It uses Maxwell as a main CC. The druid is here to convert any creature non-killable by Maxwell into one.

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500 500 6ts 6ts 6ts 6ts 6tt 6tt 6tt 6tt 6u6 6u6 6u6 6u6 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 7ai 7ai 7ak 7al 7an 7an 7an 7an 7anThis is just the illustration of a twisted use of mutation. The more of these side use a card has the more versatile it is and the better it is. Fate egg does not have that.

First, the creatures and ability produced by mutation are better.

Half the time it produces an Abomination, which isn't a very strong creature: 5 attack and no ability.
40% of the time it produces a mutant, which has, on average, only slightly better stats than the average creature. Its ability is often a lot worse than some of the creatures a Mutation can produce. 10% of the time it kills the creature, which just wastes the mutation, fodder, and quanta.

First, you forgot improve mutation which gives 100% mutant and then, you also forgot that mutation can give creatures with steal, with high HP and devour or with high atk and guard etc ... These impossile creature might save you the game. The greatest effect of mutation is simply unachievable with eggs. That is why in my idea above, I tried to put some mutation possibilities (in small proportion and in a more controlled way because it is a card time) .

A Fate Egg deck can easily be used with SN and Nova, even if they are in a different Element. There's no rule in Elements that says mono decks must always be used.

This is true but you know well that most of the SN deck have either a entropy mark or entropy pendulum. Moreover, using an entropy strategy into a rainbow makes sense thematically but tthis doesn't apply to time. What I wanted to say here is that Fate Egg is bad in general but it's even worse in a mono deck.

Fate Eggs can be the center of a deck just as easily as Mutation. Spells aren't any easier to add into a deck just because they are spells. Mutation is actually harder to add into a deck, because you need fodder for it. Fate Egg can stand alone.

I am very interested. Please show me an example where the use of the fate egg worth it.

[RootRanger]

NO.
-There are NO competitive PvP decks out there that use fate egg
-There are NO effective grinding decks that use fate egg
-There are NO effective anti-FG decks that use fate egg
-There are all of these things using mutation/fallen elf

There are some decks that use Fallen Elf, but I haven't seen a good deck that uses the individual card Mutation, which is more RNG-dependant than Fallen Elf because Mutation can only be used once.

So . . . your argument is that anything that involves the RNG should be severely UP by default?  ???

Only if it completely depends on the RNG. There shouldn't be incentive to make the RNG a huge factor in Elements. Fate Egg should stay as a non-serious card.

FYI, This deck is an excellent deck. It uses Maxwell as a main CC. The druid is here to convert any creature non-killable by Maxwell into one.

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500 500 6ts 6ts 6ts 6ts 6tt 6tt 6tt 6tt 6u6 6u6 6u6 6u6 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 7ai 7ai 7ak 7al 7an 7an 7an 7an 7anThis is just the illustration of a twisted use of mutation. The more of these side use a card has the more versatile it is and the better it is. Fate egg does not have that.

That deck uses Fallen Druid. Did you ever mention Fallen Druid in your original post in this thread? No.
I was arguing that the actual card Mutation is just as weak as Fate Egg.
If there was something that could repeatedly spawn Fate Eggs, just like Fallen Druid can repeatedly cast mutations, then the Fate Egg spawner should be usable in a deck, since it doesn't depend on the RNG as much as the individual Fate Egg. By producing more Fate Eggs, but for a higher cost, the luck is more likely to average out. But just like the standalone Mutation card, Fate Egg should not be as strong as the average card.

First, you forgot improve mutation which gives 100% mutant and then, you also forgot that mutation can give creatures with steal, with high HP and devour or with high atk and guard etc ... These impossile creature might save you the game. The greatest effect of mutation is simply unachievable with eggs. That is why in my idea above, I tried to put some mutation possibilities (in small proportion and in a more controlled way because it is a card time) .

Sure, and it can also produce a 1-attack creature with Burrow.
There are too many bad combinations for Improved Mutation, as a spell, to be a useful card. You'll need 2 card slots and 1 quanta just for one creature. Even if you get an above-average combination, you've still spent a lot of deck space.

This is true but you know well that most of the SN deck have either a entropy mark or entropy pendulum. Moreover, using an entropy strategy into a rainbow makes sense thematically but tthis doesn't apply to time. What I wanted to say here is that Fate Egg is bad in general but it's even worse in a mono deck.

Being worse in a mono deck is irrelevant to card balance with the current deckbuilding ruleset.
Fate Egg can also fit into a SN rainbow easily.

Fate Eggs can be the center of a deck just as easily as Mutation. Spells aren't any easier to add into a deck just because they are spells. Mutation is actually harder to add into a deck, because you need fodder for it. Fate Egg can stand alone.

I am very interested. Please show me an example where the use of the fate egg worth it.

I never said Fate Egg could be worth adding into a deck that wants to be used in a competitive environment without relying on RNG. I said that it can be the center of a deck just as easily as Mutation, which I don't think a deck can be based around.


To summarize:
Fate Egg and Mutation are both supposed to be weaker than the average cards because they rely heavily on the RNG. Making them stronger would caused the RNG to have a bigger role in Elements. Fallen Elf can be a useful card, but that is because it does not rely on RNG as much as Mutation, since Fallen Elf can mutate many creatures for a lower cost; it creates a larger sample. With a larger sample, the RNG has a smaller effect. If there was something that could spawn Fate Eggs, but for a high price, then it could be a usable card without increasing the RNG's importance more than necessary.

[SnoWeb]

I was arguing that the actual card Mutation is just as weak as Fate Egg.

I disagree strongly:

• Mutation|Improved Mutation cost 2 |3 , 2 cards on 1 turn - the fodder is not in a weakness state before it becomes the new creature or delay the mutation and overcome the summoning sickness.
  Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg cost 4 |4 , 1 card on 2 turns - the egg goes always through a weakness (1|1) state.
• Mutation|Improved Mutation can be combined with Fallen Elf|Druid for repeatable mutation and better/more consistent decks.
  Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg can not.
• Both Mutation|Improved Mutation and Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg generate random creature among the complete list of creatures in element. However, only those made by Mutation|Improved Mutation are buffed (up to +4|+4 I think). Note that the bonus increase with PU|TU.
• Mutation|Improved Mutation exist as a spell (no counter) and as an ability (repeatable). Mutation has a different behaviour than Improved Mutation. Mutation risks the death and is therefore a possible CC and costs less. All in all the scope of possibilities is a lot larger with Mutation|Improved Mutation  than with Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg.
• Mutation|Improved Mutation can generate creatures with steal or destroy. Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg can not.

There are some decks that use Fallen Elf, but I haven't seen a good deck that uses the individual card Mutation, which is more RNG-dependant than Fallen Elf because Mutation can only be used once.

Here again you never tried it. If you had you would know that improved mutation is also a fun card: example of nice fun deck - Twin Mutant (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14013.0.html).
With the Fallen deck I gave above, this is the second efficient and fun deck using improved mutation either in spell or in ability form. These two example demonstrate well the versatility and the fun side of mutation.
You say that Fate Egg is as good as this. I kindly request an example ...

This is true but you know well that most of the SN deck have either a entropy mark or entropy pendulum. Moreover, using an entropy strategy into a rainbow makes sense thematically but tthis doesn't apply to time. What I wanted to say here is that Fate Egg is bad in general but it's even worse in a mono deck.

Being worse in a mono deck is irrelevant to card balance with the current deckbuilding ruleset.
Fate Egg can also fit into a SN rainbow easily.

Twin mutant above is a duo as well as the Adrenatropy  / deck. I have never seen something similar half as good with fate egg.

To summarize:
Fate Egg and Mutation are both supposed to be weaker than the average cards because they rely heavily on the RNG. Making them stronger would caused the RNG to have a bigger role in Elements. Fallen Elf can be a useful card, but that is because it does not rely on RNG as much as Mutation, since Fallen Elf can mutate many creatures for a lower cost; it creates a larger sample. With a larger sample, the RNG has a smaller effect. If there was something that could spawn Fate Eggs, but for a high price, then it could be a usable card without increasing the RNG's importance more than necessary.

I think I have shown that Fate Egg is way weaker than Mutation|Improved Mutation|Fallen Elf|Fallen Druid. I don't think that the solution is to make it stronger. A change in the stats would not make the card more playable. The problem lies in the whole mechanic IMO.
I think that the solution is to make it less random. My card suggestion above goes in that direction. It would make sense to have a card with the same average impact (same average stats and usefulness of the skill) but with a less large number of possibilities. It would be more controllable and then playable. Remember it has to fit the theme and to be adaptable as much as possible with the other cards of the element. My idea is also to reduce the RNG impact by rewinding the spawn creature into a new egg. Increase the synergy with RT would naturally make it better. I proposed to make a fix creature (the fate spider) but a spawn symbol on the new creature would render that possible too.

[Hyroen]

If the Fate Egg is so involved with Fate how about this. When the Fate Egg is played from the hand the skill turns into
: "Creature Name"
The RNG selects the creature that it will turn into and includes the name as the skill, thus being "Creature Name". This allows for more synergy with Eternity and Reverse Time. Don't like what you're going to get? Just return it and play it again!!

I think though that in this case play cost should be reduced to 2 .

[Xenocidius]

If the Fate Egg is so involved with Fate how about this. When the Fate Egg is played from the hand the skill turns into
: "Creature Name"
The RNG selects the creature that it will turn into and includes the name as the skill, thus being "Creature Name". This allows for more synergy with Eternity and Reverse Time. Don't like what you're going to get? Just return it and play it again!!

I think though that in this case play cost should be reduced to 2 .

It's a good idea, and the coding infrastructure is already there as well. Although then it's hardly fate ...

[RootRanger]

I disagree strongly:

• Mutation|Improved Mutation cost 2 |3 , 2 cards on 1 turn - the fodder is not in a weakness state before it becomes the new creature or delay the mutation and overcome the summoning sickness.
  Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg cost 4 |4 , 1 card on 2 turns - the egg goes always through a weakness (1|1) state.
• Mutation|Improved Mutation can be combined with Fallen Elf|Druid for repeatable mutation and better/more consistent decks.
  Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg can not.
• Both Mutation|Improved Mutation and Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg generate random creature among the complete list of creatures in element. However, only those made by Mutation|Improved Mutation are buffed (up to +4|+4 I think). Note that the bonus increase with PU|TU.
• Mutation|Improved Mutation exist as a spell (no counter) and as an ability (repeatable). Mutation has a different behaviour than Improved Mutation. Mutation risks the death and is therefore a possible CC and costs less. All in all the scope of possibilities is a lot larger with Mutation|Improved Mutation  than with Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg.
• Mutation|Improved Mutation can generate creatures with steal or destroy. Fate Egg|Improved Fate Egg can not.

The average mutant is stronger than the average hatched creature. But that's fair, because Fate Egg uses up only 1 card slot, while mutation requires fodder. The one-turn delay, extra quanta cost, and average weaker creature is a fair price to pay for the doubled card slot efficiency.
 
While mutation has synergy with TU, but Fate Egg can be Fractaled. Mutants are difficult to Fractal.

Here again you never tried it. If you had you would know that improved mutation is also a fun card: example of nice fun deck - Twin Mutant (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14013.0.html).
With the Fallen deck I gave above, this is the second efficient and fun deck using improved mutation either in spell or in ability form. These two example demonstrate well the versatility and the fun side of mutation.
You say that Fate Egg is as good as this. I kindly request an example ...

I'm aware of Twin Mutants. That combo just isn't as fast as other upgraded rushes, which can be very fast.
Here's a Fate Egg PSN. This can get a lot of damage out in the first few turns. I think it's faster than your Twin Mutants, but if you disagree, we can have testing done.

by RootRanger

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Twin mutant above is a duo as well as the Adrenatropy  / deck. I have never seen something similar half as good with fate egg.

Fate PSN can match your Twin Mutant, even if it isn't a duo.

I think I have shown that Fate Egg is way weaker than Mutation|Improved Mutation|Fallen Elf|Fallen Druid.

Fallen Elf is stronger than Fate Egg, but I think Fate Egg can match Mutation and Improved Mutation based on the Fate PSN I posted.

[SnoWeb]

Here's a Fate Egg PSN. This can get a lot of damage out in the first few turns.

Good catch. Obviously, if RNG is on your side this deck kicks ass. However, the high instability of the PSN structure combined with the luck based hatch mechanic make this deck highly unreliable. Here one can spot the crux. Fate Egg and mutation are both RNG based. However, mutants have a bonus which makes them worth it whereas fate egg doesn't.
P.S. : add a discord in your deck to make scrambled eggs ... 
P.S.2: Thanks for the interesting discussion.   8)

If the Fate Egg is so involved with Fate how about this. When the Fate Egg is played from the hand the skill turns into
: "Creature Name"
The RNG selects the creature that it will turn into and includes the name as the skill, thus being "Creature Name". This allows for more synergy with Eternity and Reverse Time. Don't like what you're going to get? Just return it and play it again!!

This is a good idea - I think it would worth it if the opponent could not foresee the coming creature. If he could he could choose wisely which egg to blow and then the advantage would turn to a drawback.

In any case, I think the idea of making the egg or the spawn creature "rewindable" into a new egg is the good one. The card idea I proposed (earlier in this thread) is maybe too much of a change to be called a buff (it's more a remake). However, in there I mentioned a passive ability which could be a good way through the problem. The ability is called "hatched". Any creature out of a fate egg should have this passive. When rewound the creature would turn into a fate egg again. This would make the whole lot more resilient to RT and make the fate egg eternity combo a worthy one. A way to change the destiny would make sense for a time elemental, don't you think?

I think though that in this case play cost should be reduced to 2 .

I agree. In addition, a little cost reduction wouldn't hurt.

[pancosis]

How about giving it a Passive skill called Incubation: the longer it incubates the better chance for a more powerful creature. Incubation could also make it untargetable.

that actually sounds really fun
but instead of untargetable i think it should just be like 0/5 or 0/3
that way its up to u to avoid reverse times and stuff, but who knows
but either way id post that in the card idea section (do they take changes?)

[Xenocidius]

Bump. I think Hyroen's idea looks very good:

If the Fate Egg is so involved with Fate how about this. When the Fate Egg is played from the hand the skill turns into
: "Creature Name"
The RNG selects the creature that it will turn into and includes the name as the skill, thus being "Creature Name". This allows for more synergy with Eternity and Reverse Time. Don't like what you're going to get? Just return it and play it again!!

Added to the poll; feel free to change your vote.

[Bleys295]

Has anyone thought of making Fate egg produce elite creatures in it's un-upped form, and reducing it's cost in upped form. paying to play and to morph for a random elite creature would certainly save this card.

[rickerd]

You shouldn't make it untargetable, maybe than it'll be a little OP
btw can a fate egg hatch into another fate egg, that would be fun XD

[furballdn]

Lower the casting cost a bit. 3 is a bit too much imo. 2 or 1 sounds about right.