Post by: Terroking on July 28, 2010, 12:43:03 am
Simply put, the worst Dragon in the game. It's got a terrible cost:attack ratio, is incredibly expensive, and only has one good point, it's hp, which really doesn't do much to make up for the lost attack and high cost. Once you're past 15 hp, having 30 or 1000 really won't make a difference (Except in the case of Gravity Pull).
Some players may argue that it's a good card because you can put it+Grav Pull in a deck and use it for both offensive and defensive options, but tell me this, would you rather have one Charger and one Armagio (10 :gravity total cost, 11 if you use Gravity Pull, and 9 damage with 7 of it having Momentum.) or that Dragon+Grav Pull? It's more quanta, less damage, none of it has Momentum, the same hp-soaking (Except if you use it on the Dragon your offense is gone, while option 2 will still leave you the Charger) potential, more vulnerability to Freeze+Shockwave/Rewind/Mutation, and the simple positive trade-off is that you can harness Grav Pull for CC, but not many creatures are a threat to an 8/30 Dragon (Otys and Scarabs just cry) outside of Arctic Squid and Fallen Elf/Druid.
So, I propose that it gain Momentum upon play (Like Phase Dragon except that it's a beefed up Charger instead of an Immortal), at least one extra attack, both of those, a cost reduction, or, last, that the "Catapult" card Zanz mentioned works better with high-hp creatures (Perhaps something like direct damage equal to hp/2? Titans would be fine because it's a 3 card combo for 35 damage, and Unstable Gas easily surpasses that).
Post by: BluePriest on July 28, 2010, 01:35:36 am
For 10/12 :gravity, and only 7/8 damage, its not worth constantly having to replace after its rewound. Theres also no good way to produce gravity quanta unlike many of the other elements, so its just not practical for its stats to even really use.
Post by: dragonhuman on July 28, 2010, 05:28:33 am
Post by: smuglapse on July 28, 2010, 06:34:39 am
Post by: edunavas on July 28, 2010, 01:18:21 pm
And he has a ability, airbone.
You can synergy it with fire nymph or rage potion. They are very good agains some jind of creature control like devours, fire lance, rain of fire, thunderstorn, even poison.
You can synergy with gravity pull and healing from angel.
The card don´t need buff or debuf, you are not inspired to use.
Post by: 10 men on July 28, 2010, 01:39:29 pm
Post by: Baily18 on July 28, 2010, 01:44:04 pm
It´s a massive dragon, colossal, it was build to have huge hp....Fire nymph + rage potion:i'd rather use armagio
And he has a ability, airbone.
You can synergy it with fire nymph or rage potion. They are very good agains some jind of creature control like devours, fire lance, rain of fire, thunderstorn, even poison.
You can synergy with gravity pull and healing from angel.
The card don´t need buff or debuf, you are not inspired to use.
Gravity pull and angel= Again, Armagio.
Post by: wizelsnarf on July 28, 2010, 05:59:25 pm
As an alternative, I think it should have even higher hp. Maybe 7/50 and 8/50 to make it worth something compared to armagio. I don't like the momentum idea because it is very hard to kill with 30 hp.
Entropy being the opposite element, it has the simplest solutions. Antimatter and mutate. I think that is fine as otyugh eats most entropy creatures right up. I wouldn't want Antimatter to be useless against gravity that would suck.
Post by: Dragoon1140 on July 28, 2010, 06:11:28 pm
...like catapult which you suggested.Actually, that was an idea by Zanz that he told everyone in chat about. It and Bow seem to be either surprise-release cards or they are still in the Alpha stage.
Post by: Malduk on July 28, 2010, 07:18:08 pm
But I agree with general sentiment that those drakes are not really cost effective.
Post by: jmdt on July 28, 2010, 07:57:06 pm
I've put some thought into this guy. Giving it momentum is probably a bad idea. This + TU would become the new it combo (think Gemini on steroids). It needs more hp to really make it useful over armaggio and it needs slightly more attack to make it a worthwhile attacker. I would suggest +1 attack and +20 hp for 9/50. This makes it hit just a bit harder, 10 attack with momentum, and the extra 20 hp warrants attention over armaggio and maybe titan when stalling with gravity pull.
Post by: Terroking on July 28, 2010, 09:44:51 pm
its meant to be a high health card to give the dragons some diversity, a dragon with an ability would be too opPhase Dragon. 'nuff said.
It´s a massive dragon, colossal, it was build to have huge hp...."Airborne" isn't a real ability, just something used to classify what is and isn't blocked by Wings.
And he has a ability, airbone.
You can synergy it with fire nymph or rage potion. They are very good agains some jind of creature control like devours, fire lance, rain of fire, thunderstorn, even poison.
You can synergy with gravity pull and healing from angel.
The card don´t need buff or debuf, you are not inspired to use.
For Rage Pot/Fire Nymph Voodoo Doll and Archangels are both better in every way.
Otys/Scarab: Basalt Dragon. Fire Lance: Basalt Dragon. RoF/Thunderstorm: Basalt Dragon. Same with Poison. Addmittedly, all those can kill the Basalt if spammed enough (Or, in the case of Otyugh big enough) but the same applies to Massive for all non-pump spells.
They're both very hard to kill, have the same cost, but Basalt has more attack.
Added a 9/50 option in the poll.
Post by: edunavas on July 28, 2010, 11:26:17 pm
"Airborne" isn't a real ability, just something used to classify what is and isn't blocked by Wings.But airbone is a "good" thing anyway, an advantage.
For Rage Pot/Fire Nymph Voodoo Doll and Archangels are both better in every way.
Otys/Scarab: Basalt Dragon. Fire Lance: Basalt Dragon. RoF/Thunderstorm: Basalt Dragon. Same with Poison. Addmittedly, all those can kill the Basalt if spammed enough (Or, in the case of Otyugh big enough) but the same applies to Massive for all non-pump spells.
They're both very hard to kill, have the same cost, but Basalt has more attack.
Added a 9/50 option in the poll.
As you said and repeated... Basalt Dragon...ok...i think basalt is earth and massive is gravity....
Yea... if you have a gravity and other quanta (less earth) deck I think....I think...you can´t play Basalt....
We are supposed to think about every situation, not only in rainbow decks, but mono, duo and trio.
Post by: jmdt on July 28, 2010, 11:55:04 pm
"Airborne" isn't a real ability, just something used to classify what is and isn't blocked by Wings.But airbone is a "good" thing anyway, an advantage.
For Rage Pot/Fire Nymph Voodoo Doll and Archangels are both better in every way.
Otys/Scarab: Basalt Dragon. Fire Lance: Basalt Dragon. RoF/Thunderstorm: Basalt Dragon. Same with Poison. Addmittedly, all those can kill the Basalt if spammed enough (Or, in the case of Otyugh big enough) but the same applies to Massive for all non-pump spells.
They're both very hard to kill, have the same cost, but Basalt has more attack.
Added a 9/50 option in the poll.
As you said and repeated... Basalt Dragon...ok...i think basalt is earth and massive is gravity....
Yea... if you have a gravity and other quanta (less earth) deck I think....I think...you can´t play Basalt....
We are supposed to think about every situation, not only in rainbow decks, but mono, duo and trio.
Sadly, the Basalt Dragon is not that good either. Shrieker (graboid) is much better if you want pure damage at 8 cost, and as an attacking meatshield Jade dragon 12/9 and Golden dragon 12/12 take the cake.
When I can use Jade dragon, Basalt dragon and especially Colossial dragon are always terrible choices.
Post by: edunavas on July 29, 2010, 12:15:32 am
I agree with you, in terms. You have to think that if the player is making a mono gravity deck, he won´t be able to play shrieker, jade dragon, golden dragon.....
Sadly, the Basalt Dragon is not that good either. Shrieker (graboid) is much better if you want pure damage at 8 cost, and as an attacking meatshield Jade dragon 12/9 and Golden dragon 12/12 take the cake.
When I can use Jade dragon, Basalt dragon and especially Colossial dragon are always terrible choices.
I think before saying a card need nerf or buff, we have to think if the card is good or bad in many ways, mono, duo, trio and rainbows decks.
If we have a tourney that is mono gravity and the massive dragon has an ability and this ability made the cost to raise (because one they players said it need a buff), on this mono gravity deck the dragon will be useless.
Post by: Terroking on July 29, 2010, 01:08:03 am
I was comparing it to Basalt because Basalt has the second highest hp (Tied with Golden, but the latter costs more). Basalt, too,is underpowered when compared to Shrieker though. I'm still debating whether it's enough to warrant a buff or not though."Airborne" isn't a real ability, just something used to classify what is and isn't blocked by Wings.But airbone is a "good" thing anyway, an advantage.
For Rage Pot/Fire Nymph Voodoo Doll and Archangels are both better in every way.
Otys/Scarab: Basalt Dragon. Fire Lance: Basalt Dragon. RoF/Thunderstorm: Basalt Dragon. Same with Poison. Addmittedly, all those can kill the Basalt if spammed enough (Or, in the case of Otyugh big enough) but the same applies to Massive for all non-pump spells.
They're both very hard to kill, have the same cost, but Basalt has more attack.
Added a 9/50 option in the poll.
As you said and repeated... Basalt Dragon...ok...i think basalt is earth and massive is gravity....
Yea... if you have a gravity and other quanta (less earth) deck I think....I think...you can´t play Basalt....
We are supposed to think about every situation, not only in rainbow decks, but mono, duo and trio.
Sadly, the Basalt Dragon is not that good either. Shrieker (graboid) is much better if you want pure damage at 8 cost, and as an attacking meatshield Jade dragon 12/9 and Golden dragon 12/12 take the cake.
When I can use Jade dragon, Basalt dragon and especially Colossial dragon are always terrible choices.
Honestly, what good decks can you think of that use Massive Dragon effectively? (Not FGs, they don't count)I agree with you, in terms. You have to think that if the player is making a mono gravity deck, he won´t be able to play shrieker, jade dragon, golden dragon.....
Sadly, the Basalt Dragon is not that good either. Shrieker (graboid) is much better if you want pure damage at 8 cost, and as an attacking meatshield Jade dragon 12/9 and Golden dragon 12/12 take the cake.
When I can use Jade dragon, Basalt dragon and especially Colossial dragon are always terrible choices.
I think before saying a card need nerf or buff, we have to think if the card is good or bad in many ways, mono, duo, trio and rainbows decks.
If we have a tourney that is mono gravity and the massive dragon has an ability and this ability made the cost to raise (because one they players said it need a buff), on this mono gravity deck the dragon will be useless.
I'm pretty certain there aren't any. Like I said, Mono-Gravity has better options for everything that the Dragon can do. Most duo decks will too, and since you're not focused on generating :gravity there, it's very difficult to get enough to play the Dragon at all.
The only ability I suggested it gain would be Momentum, exactly in the way Sapphire Charger has it.
And I am thinking about all the ways it's good or bad, and boy, the bad stack is way higher than the good.
Post by: jmdt on July 29, 2010, 01:40:51 am
Honestly, what good decks can you think of that use Massive Dragon effectively? (Not FGs, they don't count)Its quite telling when team gravity completely ignored the dragon in vault building. Its just not worth it.
I'm pretty certain there aren't any. Like I said, Mono-Gravity has better options for everything that the Dragon can do. Most duo decks will too, and since you're not focused on generating :gravity there, it's very difficult to get enough to play the Dragon at all.
The only ability I suggested it gain would be Momentum, exactly in the way Sapphire Charger has it.
And I am thinking about all the ways it's good or bad, and boy, the bad stack is way higher than the good.
Post by: Clipse on July 29, 2010, 11:08:58 am
Post by: edunavas on July 29, 2010, 11:54:04 am
Maybe it´s the time to Zanz stopping making new cards and worry about balancing the existing ones.
Sometimes I have the feeling that Zanz don´t even ready us. At least no feedback since all threads about nerf and buff were made.
Post by: BluePriest on July 29, 2010, 01:20:07 pm
One thing that i worry is that when new cards come up, the old ones looks umbalanced.Quite on the contrary. The new card in development was taken straight from the card ideas section. And Zanz is very wise in his decision to be careful where he posts on here. He only has 141 posts, and the only time I actually saw him post in a section that wasnt patch notes and development news was
Maybe it´s the time to Zanz stopping making new cards and worry about balancing the existing ones.
Sometimes I have the feeling that Zanz don´t even ready us. At least no feedback since all threads about nerf and buff were made.
1)When he made the thread about stealing a wallet/someone hacking the game
2)When he commented on liking the idea for voodoo doll.
Him commenting on voodoo doll is a very good example of how he listens to us. I think he is doing a ood job because he is not constantly changing the stats of creatures. He will occasionally, but only after extensive testing. He would much rather put something in a beta stage instead of talk about it in theory. The graboid nerf was a good example of this.
And Zanz is also very busy with the game as well, so if he took half as much time as some of us did on the forums, then we would hardly ever get a new update.
Post by: jmdt on August 04, 2010, 03:40:02 pm
I guess we'll have to wait and see how effective the new card is, but I still say this card could use a small buff even withthe new catapult card that will be out soon.
Post by: Dragoon1140 on August 04, 2010, 04:54:11 pm
So it looks like the 'high hp launch for hp/2 card' catapult will definately be coming out soon from what I hear.I just came from chat talking with Zanz, and he says he is planning to make a Gravity card, catapult, a permanent. Every turn, you can sacrifice a creature to deal damage equal to its HP, but the catapult has a limit on what can be loaded.
Post by: Terroking on August 06, 2010, 03:11:01 am
MMMnHHHMMMMSo it looks like the 'high hp launch for hp/2 card' catapult will definately be coming out soon from what I hear.I just came from chat talking with Zanz, and he says he is planning to make a Gravity card, catapult, a permanent. Every turn, you can sacrifice a creature to deal damage equal to its HP, but the catapult has a limit on what can be loaded.
Yes well, what I had heard before was just a vague concept, something along the lines of: "Yes, Gravity needs a buff. I think I've got an old Catapult idea somewhere..."
Hopefully, the limit is 30.
Post by: guolin on August 06, 2010, 03:23:33 pm
Hopefully, the limit is 30.^This. I fear that Animated Titans will be far more effective than Massive Dragon. Either that, or it should target creature with no ability, so that both Armagio and Titan (who has momentum) cannot be targeted.
Post by: jmdt on August 06, 2010, 04:04:18 pm
If the limit is 30, it will take 7 30 hp critters to perform a kill assuming hp/2. Gravity upped has 12 of these, armargio and dragon.Hopefully, the limit is 30.^This. I fear that Animated Titans will be far more effective than Massive Dragon. Either that, or it should target creature with no ability, so that both Armagio and Titan (who has momentum) cannot be targeted.
I see an earth/gravity duo with PA, earthquake, catapult, pulvy, armaggio and dragon (maybe an oty or 2 depending how the deck shakes out). This could make a pretty potent deck and could be just the card to make this dragon usable. Seeing how its still secondary foddor to an armaggio, 8 attack may still be warranted, but who knows.
Post by: wizelsnarf on August 06, 2010, 10:00:32 pm
People are going to be using armagio for catapult, not the dragon because it will be so much cheaper.
That means catapult is not going to solve the Dragon's low stats. I think 9/50 is a totally reasonable boost. Lets say catapult cost 4 :gravity to play and 1 :gravity to use. That means you would have to spend 17 :gravity to catapult the Colossal Dragon versus 10 :gravity for an Armagio. So not worth it. Lets just increase the stats and make Gravity dragons useful.
Post by: Kurohami on August 06, 2010, 10:17:43 pm
Post by: guolin on August 06, 2010, 10:34:58 pm
The only way I can see Massive Dragon used over Armagio is if Catapult could only target creatures without abilities. That would be much nicer.If the limit is 30, it will take 7 30 hp critters to perform a kill assuming hp/2. Gravity upped has 12 of these, armargio and dragon.Hopefully, the limit is 30.^This. I fear that Animated Titans will be far more effective than Massive Dragon. Either that, or it should target creature with no ability, so that both Armagio and Titan (who has momentum) cannot be targeted.
I see an earth/gravity duo with PA, earthquake, catapult, pulvy, armaggio and dragon (maybe an oty or 2 depending how the deck shakes out). This could make a pretty potent deck and could be just the card to make this dragon usable. Seeing how its still secondary foddor to an armaggio, 8 attack may still be warranted, but who knows.
Post by: Terroking on August 07, 2010, 09:01:57 pm
Actually, I would prefer Massive Dragons over Armagios for Catapult fodder, as they can actually deal some decent damage and then just be Catapulted for the kill shot. Armagios have no such option, as if you use them to soak up damage (Their only non-Catapult asset, unless for some reason you want to count 2 attack...) their ability to be used with Catapult decreases greatly. Besides, 6*15=90, which won't even kill the opponent. That's considering all 6 as well.The only way I can see Massive Dragon used over Armagio is if Catapult could only target creatures without abilities. That would be much nicer.If the limit is 30, it will take 7 30 hp critters to perform a kill assuming hp/2. Gravity upped has 12 of these, armargio and dragon.Hopefully, the limit is 30.^This. I fear that Animated Titans will be far more effective than Massive Dragon. Either that, or it should target creature with no ability, so that both Armagio and Titan (who has momentum) cannot be targeted.
I see an earth/gravity duo with PA, earthquake, catapult, pulvy, armaggio and dragon (maybe an oty or 2 depending how the deck shakes out). This could make a pretty potent deck and could be just the card to make this dragon usable. Seeing how its still secondary foddor to an armaggio, 8 attack may still be warranted, but who knows.
Of course, you could just make catapult deal non-halved damage, and make Colossal 9/20. (Limit would be changed to 20). Like I said in the OP, 20 hp really isn't that different from 30. Not only would that make Armagios unusable for Catapult, but it would also mean they deal more damage; with and without Catapulting them.
Post by: Dragoon1140 on August 08, 2010, 03:36:05 am
Of course, you could just make catapult deal non-halved damage...That is the plan, according to Zanz in chat a few days ago. He is just deciding on the limit at this point, but the upgraded will have a higher limit, most likely.
Post by: xxxdeathxxx on August 08, 2010, 04:04:13 am
or 8/15 with momentum for 11 :gravity and 10/30 with momentum for 12 :gravity
Post by: EvaRia on August 11, 2010, 04:27:42 am
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd80588/Acceleration.jpg) | (http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd80587/Overdrive.jpg) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Post by: Daytripper on August 27, 2010, 07:55:02 pm
Momentum is a good idea, but not for a buff. Then make it 12 cost for unupped + momentum. Upgraded is same stats, + momentum and minus cost. (2 quant?)
Post by: bored_ninja777 on August 27, 2010, 08:03:58 pm
I know no player does this but the only change i think would be just balance out the stats
instead of 8/30 change it to 9/15. it still has enough hp to withstand most things. maybe do 9/20? idk..
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on August 27, 2010, 09:06:47 pm
Post by: Sigh on September 12, 2010, 02:06:51 am
Post by: trisk22 on October 01, 2010, 09:50:11 pm
Post by: TheOwner on October 01, 2010, 09:53:16 pm
Post by: Dan43 on October 03, 2010, 10:46:26 pm
Post by: trisk22 on October 04, 2010, 12:45:22 pm
Post by: MXXE on October 08, 2010, 06:56:02 pm
... but NOT the "current HP", the "full HP"
... and because we do not want it to be too strong with gravity pull + catapulting it at low (e.g 5) current HP:
"Colossal Dragon, 10 :gravity
7|32
When this creature enters play, 20 damage is dealt to it:
"
"Massive Dragon, 12 :gravity
8|60
When this creature enters play, 30 (maybe even 40!) damage is dealt to it.
This+Catapult would make it usefull...
Post by: Dragoon1140 on October 08, 2010, 06:58:17 pm
If the a new card "Catapult" gets into the game it should maybe deal damage equal HP/2 (just what has been suggested)Catapult, as far as we know, has been scratched. It was unoriginal anyway, and wouldn't be all that useful the way Zanz wanted to implement it.
Post by: EvaRia on October 09, 2010, 12:12:51 am
Post by: guolin on October 09, 2010, 02:05:13 am
Well, my Acceleration | Overdrive card is in the Forge, and I think that would solve the problem nicely.We can only hope, Eva. :P (that or threaten to TP Zanz's house)
Post by: killsdazombies on October 09, 2010, 02:14:29 am
Post by: guolin on October 09, 2010, 03:02:23 am
this really needs a buff, by far the worst dragon.Yeah, I think there's a general consensus on that. The true issue lies in how to buff it. Like I've said before (and 3$man quoted me on), Chimera helped Colossal Dragon as much as Obama helped America - not a whole lot.
Post by: Rastafla on October 09, 2010, 10:32:23 pm
Playing his creature is utterly useless with all shields out there. All that Terroking says in the first posts are true, imo. One other thing ignored is that the only non rare card with preexisting momentum is Charger. That is weak.
Gemeni will get a big buff sure, IF he turns into a problem in a possible beta just change one or two of his momentum spells into something else.
Post by: Blasting-Light on October 09, 2010, 11:09:07 pm
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on October 10, 2010, 12:04:56 am
Wouldn't this + Liquid Shadow be great? 30 turns of healing. :))It's just too slow, and not enough damage. Liquid Shadow and Obsidian Dragons is usually better, since you should win before the Dragon dies either way. Might as well animate a Vampire Dagger with Eclipse up if it's 8 healing per turn you want...
Post by: wizelsnarf on October 10, 2010, 03:40:12 am
Any suggestions for that card?
Maybe massive dragon could have a passive skill of some sort on top of airborne. Maybe if you cast gravity pull on it and it dies it causes a black hole or something?
Maybe it bends space-time some how and has 50% chance to avoid targeting?
Other ideas?
Post by: kurathedog on October 11, 2010, 05:29:56 pm
Ex. Stone dragon used to be 8/8. Now it is 8/10 (yet still is dwarfed by shrieker)
Post by: Celidion on October 23, 2010, 07:50:57 pm
Post by: BC on October 24, 2010, 04:48:17 am
Gemini's already a huge nuisance, don't make her better. >_>Massive Dragon + Antimatter + Liquid Shadow = Sweetness
Seriously though, Gemini isn't hard even when not using my nymphomania. Only problem I've ever had was early recluse spam with bad draw and sudden TUs dealing more damage than I anticipated.
On topic, Massive Dragons do need a buff. I'd say momentum or cost reduction to 10.
Post by: GG on December 24, 2010, 05:04:50 am
Okay. The dragon got buffed. The buff is as noticeable as adding 1 hp to an armagio.
I still think the dragon needs more buff. It is still the worst dragon with loads of HP useful for nothing because of Armagio.
Post by: Ekki on December 24, 2010, 05:14:12 am
Time to revive this thread.^This
Okay. The dragon got buffed. The buff is as noticeable as adding 1 hp to an armagio.
I still think the dragon needs more buff. It is still the worst dragon with loads of HP useful for nothing because of Armagio.
Post by: Terroking on December 24, 2010, 05:31:44 am
Yeah, I'm not even going to reset, just because it still needs the exact same things.Time to revive this thread.^This
Okay. The dragon got buffed. The buff is as noticeable as adding 1 hp to an armagio.
I still think the dragon needs more buff. It is still the worst dragon with loads of HP useful for nothing because of Armagio.
Post by: willng3 on December 24, 2010, 05:40:19 am
Time to revive this thread.Completely agree. I didn't even hesitate marking this as the most UP card of 2010 even AFTER the 1.26 update. It still needs a lot of love.
Okay. The dragon got buffed. The buff is as noticeable as adding 1 hp to an armagio.
I still think the dragon needs more buff. It is still the worst dragon with loads of HP useful for nothing because of Armagio.
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on December 24, 2010, 10:03:15 am
Post by: Daytripper on December 24, 2010, 11:34:25 am
While attack is not high, they are ridiculously hard to kill. They can just stand there while you prepare to buff them/TU them or catapult them/Chimera them. The AI5 and the FG pulled that on me a few times now. It is a finishing blow for decks with no Bas blood/freeze or rewinds, which is arguably this deck's weakness. Yes, you can also CATAPULT the Chimera at once.
No more please. Gravity has been given it's 2 attack strategies (Chimera/catapult) and the creatures to match. It seems fair enough to me.
Post by: Ekki on December 24, 2010, 09:55:32 pm
No more please. Gravity has been given it's 2 attack strategies (Chimera/catapult) and the creatures to match. It seems fair enough to me.Gravity is still one of the most unpopular elements... I'm yet to see any awesome or competitive mono-gravity deck.
Both Chimera and Catapult are VERY situational cards, whom you can't just make a whole strategy around. You need a shield lockdown to make Chimera useful, and it's yet too weak against freeze/rewind/delay effects, and having enough creatures to make use of a catapult is too difficult to be practical, since you have to stall all the way until you get enough high HP creatures.
Regarding the Dragon. It might be more used now, but it still needs another buff... Cost/damage ratio is awful, and cost/hp ratio is overwhelmed by Armagio. Unless any of those are solved, this card won't be balanced
Post by: GG on December 25, 2010, 01:35:50 am
I think that this dragon has gotten it's buff now. If you deduct the attack it now has 10 HP per 1 :gravity cost. The unupped version is also buffed. 15 HP for 10 :gravity total.Most dragons are either buff enough to survive most attacks or have high attack power to finish the opponent quickly in the first place.
While attack is not high, they are ridiculously hard to kill. They can just stand there while you prepare to buff them/TU them or catapult them/Chimera them. The AI5 and the FG pulled that on me a few times now. It is a finishing blow for decks with no Bas blood/freeze or rewinds, which is arguably this deck's weakness. Yes, you can also CATAPULT the Chimera at once.
No more please. Gravity has been given it's 2 attack strategies (Chimera/catapult) and the creatures to match. It seems fair enough to me.
Ruby Dragon has 2 hp? guess what? It has almost the double the attack power of massive dragon.
Besides, these dragons being buff doesn't mean anything because Stone Dragon | Basalt Dragon is also buff enough to survive most creature controls, but they have higher attack power and therefore actually viable to use.
Also, rationalizing the use of the dragon by using catapult or Chimera is nonsense. The optimal HP for catapulting is around 30, and armagio can provide that. Same goes with Chimera.
Post by: Daytripper on December 25, 2010, 12:04:24 pm
I know the rest of the deck has no bearing on the dragon itself, but it IS mighty convenient it FITS in the theme of gravity. You can't deny that a card with synergy of the same element is much better than a card from another element.
The ruby dragon has ridiculously low defence. It is very risky to play it out. Defence does have some value, and the gravity dragon is the only one to take several turns before the HP is knocked UNDER it's attack, making it vulnerable.
It is good, but you need to use it. You will not hear me say the golem is better than the steam machine either. Who doesn't want 15 HP right from the start?
If I HAD gravity pillars I would be building up a blistering coup de grace with this dragon. :P Flying dragons for the win!
Post by: Ekki on December 26, 2010, 03:10:59 am
Simply not true. If you play the right deck, with a few attacks and a maxwell's demon the dragon is food. I didn't make up the cost calcalution rule by the way. I do not fully agree with it, but attack is a bit more valuable than HP yes.Dude, use the trainer (http://www.elementsthegame.com/trainer) and try to use this dragon, or making the "right deck".
I know the rest of the deck has no bearing on the dragon itself, but it IS mighty convenient it FITS in the theme of gravity. You can't deny that a card with synergy of the same element is much better than a card from another element.
The ruby dragon has ridiculously low defence. It is very risky to play it out. Defence does have some value, and the gravity dragon is the only one to take several turns before the HP is knocked UNDER it's attack, making it vulnerable.
It is good, but you need to use it. You will not hear me say the golem is better than the steam machine either. Who doesn't want 15 HP right from the start?
If I HAD gravity pillars I would be building up a blistering coup de grace with this dragon. :P Flying dragons for the win!
You're giving very situational cases, and you'll see that what may look good in paper doesn't look as good in a deck.
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 26, 2010, 10:32:39 pm
Why? Because whatever it can do gets outdone by other creatures. Need a Gravity Pull decoy? Use Armagio. Need sheer power? Well, ever other dragon has higher attack. What about catapult? Use Basilik Blood and Auburn Nymph if you're lucky enough.
I think the addition of momentum would greatly help this card. It already has enough health, so buffing that is unesscessary. What this needs is an ability, and I think momention fits its theme. (I mean really, a giant dragon would easily smash a Permafrost Shield).
Post by: ArtCrusade on December 27, 2010, 03:34:32 am
I have looked over this card thousands of times, tested it a little, obeserved it's use in other decks, and I have to agree, it is UP.True words. Agree on every single point.
Why? Because whatever it can do gets outdone by other creatures. Need a Gravity Pull decoy? Use Armagio. Need sheer power? Well, ever other dragon has higher attack. What about catapult? Use Basilik Blood and Auburn Nymph if you're lucky enough.
I think the addition of momentum would greatly help this card. It already has enough health, so buffing that is unesscessary. What this needs is an ability, and I think momention fits its theme. (I mean really, a giant dragon would easily smash a Permafrost Shield).
Post by: OldTrees on December 27, 2010, 04:09:45 am
Post by: rowcla on December 27, 2010, 11:33:37 am
I like the idea of a creature that you can reasonably use for defense in combination with Gravity Pull, but 30 HP just isn't enough. Give him 100, then we're talking. :)in other words your more or less giving anyone who uses gravity pull on it an extra 100 health
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 27, 2010, 03:12:27 pm
We already have Armagio. =PI like the idea of a creature that you can reasonably use for defense in combination with Gravity Pull, but 30 HP just isn't enough. Give him 100, then we're talking. :)in other words your more or less giving anyone who uses gravity pull on it an extra 100 health
Post by: GG on December 27, 2010, 03:48:02 pm
But its attack power cannot be buffed satisfactorily either because of Stone Dragon.
Colossal Dragon - 10 :gravity, 7|15
Stone Dragon - 10 :earth, 8|10
Massive Dragon - 11 :gravity, 8|30
Basalt Dragon - 12 :earth, 10|12
If Colossal Dragon's attack becomes 8, it will be the same as stone dragon except that Colossal has more HP, therefore a lot of people are gonna shout imbalance.
Similarly, if Massive Dragon's attack power becomes 10 or more, it will have 18 more HP than Basalt Dragon.
But then again, if you compare creatures of certain elements, you can see imbalances where the creatures have the same cost/HP but different attacks, etc.
Blue Crawler - 3 :water, 3|3
Horned Frog - 2 :life, 3|3
Theoretically I can argue that Earth has an easier time accumulating lots of quanta since its cards are cheaper than Gravity's. However, I'm not sure if that reasoning's actually gonna work out.
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 27, 2010, 03:52:28 pm
Post by: EvaRia on December 27, 2010, 09:41:04 pm
Colossal Dragon | Massive Dragon doesn't need a buff because it's imbalanced, it needs a buff because it's useless.
There, I said it. We all know it's true, now what can we do to make it NOT useless?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 27, 2010, 10:15:56 pm
Post by: rowcla on December 27, 2010, 11:02:27 pm
armagio only has 25 hp not 100 like 10 men was suggestingWe already have Armagio. =PI like the idea of a creature that you can reasonably use for defense in combination with Gravity Pull, but 30 HP just isn't enough. Give him 100, then we're talking. :)in other words your more or less giving anyone who uses gravity pull on it an extra 100 health
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 27, 2010, 11:09:05 pm
Post by: Ekki on December 27, 2010, 11:42:31 pm
I have looked over this card thousands of times, tested it a little, obeserved it's use in other decks, and I have to agree, it is UP.^This.
Why? Because whatever it can do gets outdone by other creatures. Need a Gravity Pull decoy? Use Armagio. Need sheer power? Well, ever other dragon has higher attack. What about catapult? Use Basilik Blood and Auburn Nymph if you're lucky enough.
I think the addition of momentum would greatly help this card. It already has enough health, so buffing that is unesscessary. What this needs is an ability, and I think momention fits its theme. (I mean really, a giant dragon would easily smash a Permafrost Shield).
Personally, I don't think the card should be buffed by giving Momentum. All the dragons are meant to be vanilla creatures (as in creatures without abilities), and it should follow that rule.
Phase is immaterial, doesn't that count as an ability?'nuff said.
I wish I could change my vote to "give it Momentum"...
Post by: rowcla on December 28, 2010, 12:04:05 am
+70 HP is still a ridiculously large buff. You might as well give it immaterial instead. Also keep in mind that Dragons are meant to be beatsticks.thats why i was against it in the first place.
immarterial wouldnt work because it would stop people from targeting it for other reasons like putting gravity pull on it to make a sub for armagio, also it doesnt fit as a theme.
momentum would be good though
Post by: Dragoon1140 on December 28, 2010, 12:05:02 am
You all know of our friend Steel Golem, correct? Just because it is easily replaced by any other Earth creature does not mean it needs a buff, in ability or in cost. It's just a vanilla creature that adds to the pool of total cards in Elements, very similar to the role Colossal Dragon plays.
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 28, 2010, 12:30:31 am
Phase Dragon was an isolated exception to dragons having abilities; it was a nerf. Before the immaterial, Phase Dragon + TU was too good in mono Aether, and was accordingly nerfed. Colossal Dragon does not need a new ability, nor does it need any buff at the moment. It's a fine dragon that is just slower than some of its counter parts.You're missing the point. Steel Golem makes good cannon fodder for a rush. What we are trying to do is give Colossal Dragon a purpose just like our Golem friend has a purpose. I'm sure even the Steel Golem would agree with that.
You all know of our friend Steel Golem, correct? Just because it is easily replaced by any other Earth creature does not mean it needs a buff, in ability or in cost. It's just a vanilla creature that adds to the pool of total cards in Elements, very similar to the role Colossal Dragon plays.
Post by: MXXE on December 29, 2010, 02:27:58 pm
If the a new card "Catapult" gets into the game it should maybe deal damage equal HP/2 (just what has been suggested)This would cause it to NOT be second choice, when comparing to armagios.
... but NOT the "current HP", the "full HP"
... and because we do not want it to be too strong with gravity pull + catapulting it at low (e.g 5) current HP:
"Colossal Dragon, 10 :gravity
7|35
When this creature enters play, 20 damage is dealt to it:
"
"Massive Dragon, 11 :gravity
8|60
When this creature enters play, 30 (maybe even 40!) damage is dealt to it.
This+Catapult would make it useful...
seems I was right ;)If the a new card "Catapult" gets into the game it should maybe deal damage equal HP/2 (just what has been suggested)Catapult, as far as we know, has been scratched. It was unoriginal anyway, and wouldn't be all that useful the way Zanz wanted to implement it.
Since the two most voted options are "momentum" and "New card to give usefulness to high-hp creatures", I think some good "new card"-stuff should be considered.
Post by: ArtCrusade on December 29, 2010, 02:47:03 pm
Ability: Give Birth: Massive Dragon gives birth to 3 baby dragons. Delays for 9 turns.
I mean, this dragon is MASSIVE. Just from looking at it you have to assume it's pregnant. But I'd be fine with Momentum as well. What could possibly stop such a strong and big dragon like the Massive Dragon? Or make it have the ability Massive Size. Damageprevention is halved rounded up, and so are effects like Fog Shield or Spine Carapace. Fire Buckler would still deal damage. What I am thinking about is whether Hope should prevent any damage from Massive Dragon. All hope is crushed when a 80 tons dragon advances towards your health.
Post by: Daytripper on December 29, 2010, 04:30:44 pm
Solution is simple: Add attack/give momentum maybe? (But why, what of the sapphire charger?) Then, cut the HP way down. Another ability is fine. But it can't really have ability and that much HP. It's OP.
I do like the last reply. The dragon looks incredibly fat indeed. It could lay a fate egg, then it could open in a few turns for sure. I can see the humour in that. I'm not going along with the 80 tonnes dragon. That is more than a whale, even almost double of a Dinosaur. Hence, it cannot be airborne anymore if it weighs 80 tonnes.
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on December 29, 2010, 04:36:39 pm
Likewise, I can say, YES, but basalt dragons are also too expensive. I always use golems and graboids. Basalt dragons need a buff! Then someone can retort: Yes, but the basalt dragon is the ONLY creature that is airborne. Hmm. The MASSIVE dragon is the only gravity creature that is airborne, hence it has value. You have no defence here.Ah but you see, Chargers ignore Wings as well as airborne creatures would, so there's my defence. Creatures don't need to be airborne to ignore Wings, Momentum works just as well. Earth has no Momentum-inherent creatures, or even spells that can cause it, Gravity has both.
Post by: ArtCrusade on December 29, 2010, 04:39:23 pm
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 29, 2010, 04:49:09 pm
I think the people here obviously do not appreciate this dragon has 30 HP. You can't honestly say 30 HP for a few :gravity more is expensive. It isn't. You can see it if you were to add a few attack. It just becomes a regular dragon but WITH 30 HP. You can say there is no use for the 30 HP, but obviously there is. It is not situational either. This dragon can stay on the field, do some damage, and it can be catapulted/Chimera'd/momentumed in the endgame. That is not situational. That is main line. It is situational if the opponent can play in such a way that you can't use the dragon. For example, take maxwell's. Situational, because the opponent might play low attack creatures. So it is not bad to have 1 or 2 dragons in your deck. Sure, you can say other creatures are better. Likewise, I can say, YES, but basalt dragons are also too expensive. I always use golems and graboids. Basalt dragons need a buff! Then someone can retort: Yes, but the basalt dragon is the ONLY creature that is airborne. Hmm. The MASSIVE dragon is the only gravity creature that is airborne, hence it has value. You have no defence here.
Solution is simple: Add attack/give momentum maybe? (But why, what of the sapphire charger?) Then, cut the HP way down. Another ability is fine. But it can't really have ability and that much HP. It's OP.
I do like the last reply. The dragon looks incredibly fat indeed. It could lay a fate egg, then it could open in a few turns for sure. I can see the humour in that. I'm not going along with the 80 tonnes dragon. That is more than a whale, even almost double of a Dinosaur. Hence, it cannot be airborne anymore if it weighs 80 tonnes.
Your argument is invalid.
1) All the things that Massive can do get outdone by every other dragon and many other creatures/spells.
2)Dragons are meant to be beatsticks, not creatures spawners. Besides, girlsgeneration already has an idea for that in the card ideas section. Check more throughly please.
3) As a beatstick, it is probably the least prefered dragon over any other dragon due to the fact it has lower attack yet same quanta cost.
4) Unupped is in an even worse state than the upped.
Post by: Daytripper on December 29, 2010, 11:42:21 pm
Otherwise.
1) All the things that Massive can do get outdone by every other dragon and many other creatures/spells.
No. Show me a dragon that can go on for 30 turns while poisoned, for example.
2)Dragons are meant to be beatsticks, not creatures spawners. Besides, girlsgeneration already has an idea for that in the card ideas section. Check more throughly please.
You have to admit it was a funny idea! And, momentum is a popular buff candidate. Isn't that an ability? Besides you are not making sense. You can't post if someone else already has an idea? In that case I will post a card idea that says only I can make forum posts.
3) As a beatstick, it is probably the least prefered dragon over any other dragon due to the fact it has lower attack yet same quanta cost.
I think I already solved that... If people dont appreciate the HP, take it away, and give it another buff. That and almost every dragon is the least preferred..
4) Unupped is in an even worse state than the upped.
Well yes, that's why it is unupped.
I wonder if you really understood what I was saying, but oh wel. We'll see what becomes of the dragon.
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 29, 2010, 11:53:05 pm
Quote
1) All the things that Massive can do get outdone by every other dragon and many other creatures/spells.Um yeah, I think there is a thing called multiple Parasites.
No. Show me a dragon that can go on for 30 turns while poisoned, for example.
Quote
2)Dragons are meant to be beatsticks, not creatures spawners. Besides, girlsgeneration already has an idea for that in the card ideas section. Check more throughly please.Hey, chill. I am just saying it was already done. Also, a beatstick can have an effect. It just has more focus on pure attacking. Momentum is an attack ability right? ;)
You have to admit it was a funny idea! And, momentum is a popular buff candidate. Isn't that an ability? Besides you are not making sense. You can't post if someone else already has an idea? In that case I will post a card idea that says only I can make forum posts.
Quote
3) As a beatstick, it is probably the least prefered dragon over any other dragon due to the fact it has lower attack yet same quanta cost.Ruby Dragon?
I think I already solved that... If people dont appreciate the HP, take it away, and give it another buff. That and almost every dragon is the least preferred..
Quote
4) Unupped is in an even worse state than the upped.An unupped dies quite easily compared to upped.
Well yes, that's why it is unupped.
I wonder if you really understood what I was saying, but oh wel. We'll see what becomes of the dragon.
Post by: BluePriest on December 30, 2010, 03:47:20 am
My platform:
Everything good about the dragon is outdone by other creatures in gravity.
Post by: Daytripper on December 30, 2010, 10:40:24 am
Quote
Everything good about the dragon is outdone by other creatures in gravity.
Good practical thinking, but it is again, about redundance. I can also say the basalt dragon is airborne, but that the pulvy is much moar bettah at negating Wings. :P If you only want to look at the damage, consider a dragon is 8 quanta more than a Graboid with the same attack. So, who puts a fair amount of these dragons in a deck? Not many, so we can say the use is limited. I think then, we are not discussing the same thing. Another creature of the same element that does the same thing does not make one of the creatures underpowered.
No, most dragons look pale in comparison to the midrange attackers. (No, time has no midrange attacker so does not count) This platform opens up all kinds of reasons to change every dragon. That's a change, it doesn't have to be a buff.
Maybe you are right, but it seems to me a re appraisal of all dragons might be in order.
Post by: ArtCrusade on December 30, 2010, 11:34:20 am
Saying it doesn't need to be changed, because it's the only airborne creature :gravity has is not valid. Charger deals almost the same damage for half the prize and has Momentum. And noone would waste Gravity Force on the dragon, because it's easier to play an Armagio for half the prize.
Post by: Daytripper on December 30, 2010, 01:08:11 pm
Quote
To keep diversity and uniqueness of Elements Massive Dragon needs to be changed just as Dagger needs to be changed. Many other elements have ways to make playing dragons easier than ( ). Others can easily stall until they can play the dragons easily ( ) and one even has an ability. In any other case playing a dragon is better than playing 2 smaller creatures, because they take less space in the deck and on the field - and that is why I prefer Light Dragons over Archangels for example.I like your line of thinking. It is coherent and well supported. One thing though. I did not say the dragon has a reasonable price because it is airborne. I said it has a reasonable price because it is airborne AND has 30 HP. Besides, momentum can be lobotomized. Airborne cannot. You need 2 specific creatures with web for it.
Saying it doesn't need to be changed, because it's the only airborne creature has is not valid. Charger deals almost the same damage for half the prize and has Momentum. And noone would waste Gravity Force on the dragon, because it's easier to play an Armagio for half the prize.
Let's say the dragons are there to blow away the excess quanta, and that it is fair enough to look at the elements quanta. It is a different issue, but it has something to do with it.
:entropy I don't see a way to make entropy quanta.
:earth Dont see. Gnome finder is the same as a pillar.
:air Don't see it. Damselfly is the same as a pillar.
:life I don't see it. Fire and light yes. (FFQ/rustler)
:fire Agreed. Immo/FFQ
:water ?
:light Of course
:death Now has soul catcher
:time ?
:darkness of course.
:aether No, but the dragons are good.
In the end, you can only say gravity has no way to make more quanta. But, many elements don't. Other factors have no bearing on the dragon. You can say you can't make it to the end of the game because the shielding is inadaquate, so you can't save quanta. Or you can say that the other units are too expensive. I'll happily grant you the graviton guard is useless, for example. But the dragon isn't to blame for the other cards. In the end, it is the same thing. the critics don't think 30 HP has any value. If they can make a good case, I guess we'll see a new dragon soon. In which case, I hope it won't stll have 30 HP, because I think it is ridiculously cheap.
Post by: ArtCrusade on December 30, 2010, 01:32:40 pm
Now let us take a look at :gravity. Gravity has a shield which blocks creatures with more than 5 health. That means most creatures will just hit like normal, and creatures with Momentum ignore shields anyway. Gravity Force can be used on creatures to gain time or kill creatures, and Armagion can help with stalling as well. Though Armagio will be overrun fast if you don't use other cards to make it live longer. Gravity has BH, which can heal the user for up to 36 health, but depends too much on the enemy to be a card that you can rely on, and is almost useless against mono decks. So it comes down do having a shield which blocks a few bigger creatures, creatures which block a few creatures, and a spell which cannot be relyed on. Not the best base to wait for a big creature with so many disadvantages like the Massive Dragon. By the time you summon one Massive Dragon, 2 Chargers can be summoned, which deal more damage and completly ignore shields. Why is it that a simple beast is better than a big strong dragon? Sure, the Chargers will be more likely to be killed than the dragon, but your whole concept can be destroyed by one Rewind if you rely on dragons.
The fact that there are so many cons and just one pro, namely the dragon's health, makes me wonder why you don't agree that the dragon needs a buff.
Post by: OldTrees on December 30, 2010, 01:33:00 pm
People need to remember how to debate.. platforms. Right now there doesnt seem to be one clear reason for the dragon being buffed. Im seeing half attempts at reasons for the dragon being buffed, and half attempts at why it doesnt need buffed.My platform:
My reasons for the need for a buff for Massive Dragon:
Based upon my design theory formed from dissection of the creatures in the game, I found that there is no additional cost for HP after that HP exceeds 10. I explain this coincidence with the following reason: "After 10 HP CC is nearly impossible or doesn't care about the HP due to overwhelming damage (Gravity Pull) or non HP based CC (antimatter)." As such, once the number crunching has settled, Massive Dragon ends up being overpriced by 1 :gravity. In conclusion Massive Dragon needs a buff on the magnitude of 1 :gravity.
My preliminary response to criticism:
Cards in need of buffs are harder to find intuitivly than those needing nerfs. Furthermore cards needing minor buffs (1 :gravity) tend to slip below the intuition radar.
My attempt at finding the ideal simple buff:
With a vanilla creature there are 4 points of balance that can be modified
1) Casting Cost
2) Attack
3) HP
4) Add a skill if no other option works
Option 1: Casting Cost
If we lower casting cost to 10 [10 :gravity: 8|30] then it gets close to the unupped Stone Dragon [10 :earth: 8|10].
This may be an acceptable result because Earth is weird in its HP value brackets (aka it gets 1 free HP). However lets review other options
Option 2: Attack
If we increase attack to 9 [11 :gravity: 9|30]
It gets acceptably close to unupped Azure Dragon [10 :air: 9|6] or unupped Ice Dragon [10 :water: 9|6]
This would work as a sufficient buff in my opinion.
Just for completeness we will look at why not option 3
Option 3: HP
More HP would have to render Armagio unnecessary to even have an effect (not a desired result)
Less HP would be silly because we are looking to buff not nerf
Post by: ArtCrusade on December 30, 2010, 01:50:00 pm
Post by: BluePriest on December 30, 2010, 02:09:02 pm
Good things about Massive Dragon
1)The health | Armagio is cheaper, better for catapult, doesnt need an additional card to be GP'd
2)The Damage | 1 Less damage the the Charger, and that has momentum.
you may say that it has the best of both worlds with this card, however, once a card has over 10 hp, as oldtrees has pointed out, the extra health is next to worthless. I would even go a step further and say that Chargers beat it in every way. They can survive 2 of almost any CC, and bypass shields automatically. The only real benifit the high health has is against Otys, which is in the same element. Meanwhile congeal and rewind are effective agaisnt both the dragon and the charger, however, chargers are cheaper, so its actually BETTER for them to be rewound instead of dragons, and and CC shield like dusk, procrastination, or perma will destroy the coloosal dragon, meanwhile your charger is looking better and better.
Post by: Daytripper on December 30, 2010, 02:17:24 pm
Artcrusade, you are still blaming the dragon for everything else you think is wrong with gravity. That is not valid reasoning. And then you say a gnomefinder is like a pillar, and then that is helps paying for a dragon. That doesn't follow. A gravity pillar is also like a pillar. So it helps paying for the dragon. A pillar is still better. It has no cost and a tower produces instantly.
I like your idea, by the way. But you acknowledge it deserves a HP decrease for the ability! How is that any different from what I said?
This is a much better line of reasoning, using objective numbers.
Quote
My reasons for the need for a buff for Massive Dragon:It does have an obvious problem. If we decrease the casting cost or up the attack, you shouldn't mind it too much if we cut the HP to 10. After all, it doesn't matter. That seems very odd to me, but it is a fair enough trade off to me.
Based upon my design theory formed from dissection of the creatures in the game, I found that there is no additional cost for HP after that HP exceeds 10. I explain this coincidence with the following reason: "After 10 HP CC is nearly impossible or doesn't care about the HP due to overwhelming damage (Gravity Pull) or non HP based CC (antimatter)."
And to BP I would say the same thing.. Fine, buff it and cut the HP to 10 then.
Post by: OldTrees on December 30, 2010, 02:28:05 pm
Changing it to 9|10 for 11 :gravity would work balancewise
There is the thematic concern that Gravity should have more HP than other dragons so:
11 :gravity: 9|15 would be balanced and fit thematically in my mind.
Post by: MXXE on December 30, 2010, 04:11:19 pm
If the dragon is not (like discussed before) underpowered but rather redundant we could just completely remove it and replace it with a generic dragon: "10 :gravity: Fast dragon, 10|5". bam.
Would anybody be sad or mad about loosing their precious dragon?
It's obviously a slightly extreme solution, my point is that the usual approaches get discussed to death here.
Or we could just add momentum like the poll sais. Zanz said it often: "Simple is good"
Do people agree that the problem is redundacy and not underpowerdness?
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 30, 2010, 05:49:22 pm
I think the problem might be that we try to fit the gravity theme by makeing the dragon heavy. In gravity we have two things: Heavyness (Armagio) and Speed (Charger, momentum)I would be sad or mad for two reasons about losing ot:
If the dragon is not (like discussed before) underpowered but rather redundant we could just completely remove it and replace it with a generic dragon: "10 :gravity: Fast dragon, 10|5". bam.
Would anybody be sad or mad about loosing their precious dragon?
It's obviously a slightly extreme solution, my point is that the usual approaches get discussed to death here.
Or we could just add momentum like the poll sais. Zanz said it often: "Simple is good"
Do people agree that the problem is redundacy and not underpowerdness?
1) I like it. It's massive after all.
2) I'm too used to seeing it as girlsgeneration's icon.
Just add momentum. It somewhat kills redundancy, makes it useful, and balances it in comparision with all other dragons. Simple.
Post by: MXXE on December 30, 2010, 09:37:25 pm
Post by: GG on December 30, 2010, 09:44:32 pm
Possible solution:Sorta off topic, but I have to do this.
Ability: Give Birth: Massive Dragon gives birth to 3 baby dragons. Delays for 9 turns.
I mean, this dragon is MASSIVE. Just from looking at it you have to assume it's pregnant. But I'd be fine with Momentum as well. What could possibly stop such a strong and big dragon like the Massive Dragon? Or make it have the ability Massive Size. Damageprevention is halved rounded up, and so are effects like Fog Shield or Spine Carapace. Fire Buckler would still deal damage. What I am thinking about is whether Hope should prevent any damage from Massive Dragon. All hope is crushed when a 80 tons dragon advances towards your health.
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18064.0.html
Post by: SpikeSpiegel on December 31, 2010, 03:58:37 pm
To add momentum could be a nice buff...i like GG's idea too (as i wrote in her post...)
Post by: Jappert on January 24, 2011, 07:26:06 pm
"New card to give usefulness to high-hp creatures"
<3
Post by: MXXE on February 27, 2011, 12:55:05 pm
Didn't we agree somewhere that the problem with the dragon is not being UP but it is its redundacy?
If I can decide between catapulting an armago or a dragon I take the armagio. Why should I waste 8 attack per turn for a smaller punch? I would even take armagios into my deck just for having a Plan B: Plan B is using the armagio's gravity pull (while the catapult "reloads" for example, if I'm just one turn from dieing)
If I can decide between accelerating an armagio or a dragon I take the armagio. The speed is pretty much the same: Either I wait until the armagio hits the 8 attack the dragon has or I wait until I have the quanta to play the dragon. It comes down to waiting. Then it also costs less. And another advantage: With the dragon it can get up to 35|1 and then it dies. With armagio I can get up to 49|1 and THEN it dies AND it had more turns on the field. Plus the plan B if I take only armagios in my deck.
I personally don't see advantages in taking the dragon, or just very situational ones.
I know I might be a bit early with being uncontent as acceleration hasnt even been put into the actual game, so I acknowledge that all my points can turn out to be invalid once the card is in the game. But I don't assume so.
Post by: GG on March 10, 2011, 07:18:40 am
[wall of text]Another point in comparing Armagio and the dragon like that even without Acceleration, people still use Armagio for stalling purposes. Does dragon ever get used in cases other than Acceleration? I think not. Catapult? I'd rather use Armagio; more than half as cheap but same damage when thrown.
Gravity Dragon still needs a buff.
In some games in the past, I've seen cases where one card (Armagio in this case) was nerfed so that the other card is relatively not UP (dragon). Hopefully that won't happen here.
Post by: Daytripper on March 11, 2011, 11:05:05 pm
The problem is, technically you don't have a leg to stand on.
8 attack = 8 :gravity
Over 10 HP = 3 :gravity
For a combined cost of 11 :gravity
Most upgraded cards get a slight break, but again, 30 HP isn't just a bit over 10, it's triple the value. You can't make it too extreme, if it had 100 HP then gravity force is another life bar.
Honestly, I am starting to hate these things, because already you can barely kill them. Maybe some wacky effect that's not OP could make people play it
1) The graviton guard starts to be a useful card and produces lots of gravity quantas for the dragon.
2) The graviton guard can mount (only!) the dragon to create a powerful dragon rider.
Solves 2 problems at once
Post by: DevilLoss on March 12, 2011, 11:03:51 am
Post by: killybob on March 12, 2011, 01:46:07 pm
Post by: Captain Scibra on March 16, 2011, 03:40:16 am
It does need some sort of buff, but I think Momentum is a bad idea, since with its high hp it's already hard to deal with unless you use Mutation or Rewind. I am still sticking with my old choice of +1|+20 (9|50), though it makes me think of a straight up Titan with an extra attack instead of Momentum. The Pregnant idea is funny and does sound like an interesting idea, and I never really noticed it had a good size gut.
Post by: Sigh on March 29, 2011, 01:04:07 am
1. DevilLoss, get a spellchecker. Seriously, that was horrible and I couldn't read a word.
2. I am actually kind of liking Daytripper's idea to make a dragon rider out of two of the most useless Gravity cards, although without the gravity-making of the merc, mostly due to the fact that a good gravity deck makes tons of :gravity due to the relatively high cost of the monsters, but also because the "dragon riding" ability should be used on the Mercenary, since the dragons have a no-ability rule and all.
Post by: Time_lord_victorius on March 29, 2011, 01:33:37 am
gravity is nice...but it lacks that thing that makes you go "oh my god what the fu----" thing. acceleration is awesome because it makes mono gravity viable and earth gravity even more awesome.
Post by: icecoldbro on March 29, 2011, 01:39:40 am
well, i have a very simple solution to give for buffing it. since it has loads of hp, why not make use of this, give it the innate ability to accelerate. if not dealt with quickly, this puppy is going to leave you hanging by a thread. momentum is redundant in gravity, i think acceleration should have its mark upon this dragon for no extra cost at all, like a freebie. "buy this and we'll give you this with your purchase" kind of deal. just my opinion here.That makes it more OP than most dragons combined.
gravity is nice...but it lacks that thing that makes you go "oh my god what the fu----" thing. acceleration is awesome because it makes mono gravity viable and earth gravity even more awesome.
after one turn its 11/27...
Also its not easy to deal with one, most CC is useless against it.
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on March 29, 2011, 01:43:54 am
Post by: killybob on March 29, 2011, 07:18:04 pm
Post by: Time_lord_victorius on March 29, 2011, 10:41:10 pm
i think it would be fine with a simple attack boost (and a cost increase to balance it out). since it's not gonna get an ability, as dragons are supposed to be vanilla, all it can get is a stat boost. perhaps +2 or 3 to attack and +2 to cost.IMO, that dragon definetly doesnt need its cost raised higher than 1 unupped because gravity has some pretty high costing cards already, lets not choke it down into oblivion.
Post by: killybob on March 30, 2011, 02:28:42 pm
remember that just because other cards of that element a have high price to play, it doesn't mean one has to have a low cost. cards must remain balanced regardless. there are exceptions like lightning in aether but that's about it. the dragon already has VERY high hp which makes it nearly cc proof. to give it extra attack without pushing the price up as well will inevitably cause this card to end up on the "nerf card" section.i think it would be fine with a simple attack boost (and a cost increase to balance it out). since it's not gonna get an ability, as dragons are supposed to be vanilla, all it can get is a stat boost. perhaps +2 or 3 to attack and +2 to cost.IMO, that dragon definetly doesnt need its cost raised higher than 1 unupped because gravity has some pretty high costing cards already, lets not choke it down into oblivion.
Post by: Time_lord_victorius on March 30, 2011, 05:41:16 pm
Post by: funerallaughter on March 30, 2011, 06:04:48 pm
The real problem is, EtG fighting is not HP centered; we need to introduce new ways to make HP at least up to par in necessity as attack, such as the improved Skull Buckler.
In terms of Armagio here... passive GP? XDD =.="
Post by: killybob on March 30, 2011, 06:41:23 pm
yes, i understand, but limit the casting cost no more than 1 :gravity because this would be the most quanta hungry dragons amongst non-upped dragonsi see where you are coming from. it is important that this dragon does not have too high a cost for the little attack it has. even +2 attack would bring it up to 11 (the same price as the second lowest attack for dragons).
This dragon is quite perfect in its own regard ^.^we mustn't make hp too important. the whole balancing factor will go awry and creature cost will go up and down madly (eg ruby dragon would go down in price as it has only 2 hp). besides catapult does this rather nicely. admittedly though we could add a couple of new factors in.
The real problem is, EtG fighting is not HP centered; we need to introduce new ways to make HP at least up to par in necessity as attack, such as the improved Skull Buckler.
In terms of Armagio here... passive GP? XDD =.="
Post by: funerallaughter on March 30, 2011, 06:58:26 pm
If Attack were balanced with HP, how would that competition be bad, other than cost modifications?
Post by: Flayne on March 30, 2011, 07:41:46 pm
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on March 30, 2011, 07:52:31 pm
imo, With acceleration in the game, Its not very necessary to give collosal dragon a buff.Well Armagio is still over it in terms of Rage Potioning and Accelerating/Overdriving
Post by: Flayne on March 30, 2011, 08:07:34 pm
when upgraded it isnt that much. they both have 30 hp when upgrading , in this case collosal dragon is over it in terms of power, it would be even more if it wasnt for the cost.imo, With acceleration in the game, Its not very necessary to give collosal dragon a buff.Well Armagio is still over it in terms of Rage Potioning and Accelerating/Overdriving
but that in itself doesnt need a buff.
Post by: Ekki on March 31, 2011, 01:34:26 pm
Actually, I think Colossal Dragon is less UP than Massive Dragon... They both are balanced in the atk/hp/cost thingy, but Massive Dragon's niche is the same as Armagio's, thus that +15 hp makes it unneccessarily more expensive. Colossal Dragon is awesome with Acceleration/Overdrive, and a Colossal Dragon/Acceleration deck does better against RT than an Armagio/Acceleration one, because the Dragons doesn't need the Acceleration to deal damage.when upgraded it isnt that much. they both have 30 hp when upgrading , in this case collosal dragon is over it in terms of power, it would be even more if it wasnt for the cost.imo, With acceleration in the game, Its not very necessary to give collosal dragon a buff.Well Armagio is still over it in terms of Rage Potioning and Accelerating/Overdriving
but that in itself doesnt need a buff.
Whatever, Massive Dragon could have 20 hp and get his cost reduced by 1 :gravity, as to have a niche on his own (semi-high hp and semi-high atk).
Also, any card that buffs hp would need to take in account atk too to buff this dragon. Otherwise it would end the same as ever, Armagio overshadows it... Acceleration is a clear example of a buff to this Dragon, and I think it just need a minor buff, and maybe what I said of making it 8|20 and costing 10 :gravity
Post by: Flayne on March 31, 2011, 08:51:55 pm
well, when i think of Golden dragon, I say perhaps it may need a teensy-tiny buff of perhaps its attack power or cost lowering. But certainly NOT both attack rise and cost lowering, imo, its one or the other.Actually, I think Colossal Dragon is less UP than Massive Dragon... They both are balanced in the atk/hp/cost thingy, but Massive Dragon's niche is the same as Armagio's, thus that +15 hp makes it unneccessarily more expensive. Colossal Dragon is awesome with Acceleration/Overdrive, and a Colossal Dragon/Acceleration deck does better against RT than an Armagio/Acceleration one, because the Dragons doesn't need the Acceleration to deal damage.when upgraded it isnt that much. they both have 30 hp when upgrading , in this case collosal dragon is over it in terms of power, it would be even more if it wasnt for the cost.imo, With acceleration in the game, Its not very necessary to give collosal dragon a buff.Well Armagio is still over it in terms of Rage Potioning and Accelerating/Overdriving
but that in itself doesnt need a buff.
Whatever, Massive Dragon could have 20 hp and get his cost reduced by 1 :gravity, as to have a niche on his own (semi-high hp and semi-high atk).
Also, any card that buffs hp would need to take in account atk too to buff this dragon. Otherwise it would end the same as ever, Armagio overshadows it... Acceleration is a clear example of a buff to this Dragon, and I think it just need a minor buff, and maybe what I said of making it 8|20 and costing 10 :gravity
Post by: GG on March 31, 2011, 09:35:29 pm
imo, With acceleration in the game, Its not very necessary to give collosal dragon a buff.Other dragons function very well EVEN WITHOUT any auxilary cards.
Post by: Flayne on April 01, 2011, 01:26:30 am
yeah, colossal dragon has 30 hp when upped, whats your point?imo, With acceleration in the game, Its not very necessary to give collosal dragon a buff.Other dragons function very well EVEN WITHOUT any auxilary cards.
Post by: killybob on April 01, 2011, 04:39:25 pm
her point is, i believe, that dragons are really meant to be perfect on their own and not need back up cards to power them.yeah, colossal dragon has 30 hp when upped, whats your point?imo, With acceleration in the game, Its not very necessary to give collosal dragon a buff.Other dragons function very well EVEN WITHOUT any auxilary cards.
Post by: Flayne on April 01, 2011, 05:33:32 pm
Thats the point of this thread, we all know that.her point is, i believe, that dragons are really meant to be perfect on their own and not need back up cards to power them.yeah, colossal dragon has 30 hp when upped, whats your point?imo, With acceleration in the game, Its not very necessary to give collosal dragon a buff.Other dragons function very well EVEN WITHOUT any auxilary cards.
My point is that collosal dragon when upped has 30 hp, it cant be killed as easily as the other dragons by physical means.
most of the dragons can be killed with two lightnings, some with two firebolts, there are three that cant be killed easily, colossal dragon, phase dragon and golden dragon. the rest are easier to kill.
therefore, this dragon works perfectly as it already is, with its 12 hp unupped and huge 30 hp when upped.
acceleration is the cherry on top of the cake.
Post by: OldTrees on April 01, 2011, 05:52:14 pm
It is true that Massive dragon is more resilient than Golden Dragon.Thats the point of this thread, we all know that.her point is, i believe, that dragons are really meant to be perfect on their own and not need back up cards to power them.yeah, colossal dragon has 30 hp when upped, whats your point?imo, With acceleration in the game, Its not very necessary to give collosal dragon a buff.Other dragons function very well EVEN WITHOUT any auxilary cards.
My point is that collosal dragon when upped has 30 hp, it cant be killed as easily as the other dragons by physical means.
most of the dragons can be killed with two lightnings, some with two firebolts, there are three that cant be killed easily, colossal dragon, phase dragon and golden dragon. the rest are easier to kill.
therefore, this dragon works perfectly as it already is, with its 12 hp unupped and huge 30 hp when upped.
acceleration is the cherry on top of the cake.
(This does not entail balance but is an indicator that balance is possible)
It is true that Golden dragon is not overshadowed by Archangel
It is true that Massive dragon is overshadowed by Elite Armagio or Elite Charger (depending on the tactic)
Hence Massive Dragon is UP but can be balanced.
Solution: Change Massive Dragon to 8|15 for 9 :gravity.
(this is obviously balanced because it uses a simple +1atk, -1CC upgrade modifier from Colossal Dragon)
Post by: TStar on April 01, 2011, 06:39:05 pm
It is true that Massive dragon is more resilient than Golden Dragon.How would you change the unupped version then, as it is currently 7|15 for 10 :gravity, or would you simply leave it unchanged and make the upped version +1 attack, -1 cost? And if you lower the unupped stats and cost, would that fit with the apparent theme of unupped dragons costing at least 10 quanta?
(This does not entail balance but is an indicator that balance is possible)
It is true that Golden dragon is not overshadowed by Archangel
It is true that Massive dragon is overshadowed by Elite Armagio or Elite Charger (depending on the tactic)
Hence Massive Dragon is UP but can be balanced.
Solution: Change Massive Dragon to 8|15 for 9 :gravity.
(this is obviously balanced because it uses a simple +1atk, -1CC upgrade modifier from Colossal Dragon)
Post by: OldTrees on April 01, 2011, 06:52:07 pm
I consider the unupped to be balanced.It is true that Massive dragon is more resilient than Golden Dragon.How would you change the unupped version then, as it is currently 7|15 for 10 :gravity, or would you simply leave it unchanged and make the upped version +1 attack, -1 cost? And if you lower the unupped stats and cost, would that fit with the apparent theme of unupped dragons costing at least 10 quanta?
(This does not entail balance but is an indicator that balance is possible)
It is true that Golden dragon is not overshadowed by Archangel
It is true that Massive dragon is overshadowed by Elite Armagio or Elite Charger (depending on the tactic)
Hence Massive Dragon is UP but can be balanced.
Solution: Change Massive Dragon to 8|15 for 9 :gravity.
(this is obviously balanced because it uses a simple +1atk, -1CC upgrade modifier from Colossal Dragon)
Post by: jmdt on April 01, 2011, 09:39:09 pm
I consider the unupped to be balanced.Yes and no. The unupped dragon makes a terrible catapult target with its current hp. I'd like to see the unupped dragon with 25 hp like armagio. As is unupped dragon is a terrible attacker, terrible catapult target and terrible gravity pull target. Higher hp fixes the last 2 for the most part.
Without gining the dragon an effect or reducing its cost, there is really no other way to improve it. It needs 1 less attack than Basalt, which itself is somewhat weak, and it will always be 3rd in pecking order of catapult targets unless it gets like 40 hp since armagio is strictly better.
Post by: OldTrees on April 01, 2011, 10:32:29 pm
With the unupped I view it as card advantage vs cost/attack efficiency when compared to the other Gravity attacker Sapphire ChargerI consider the unupped to be balanced.Yes and no. The unupped dragon makes a terrible catapult target with its current hp. I'd like to see the unupped dragon with 25 hp like armagio. As is unupped dragon is a terrible attacker, terrible catapult target and terrible gravity pull target. Higher hp fixes the last 2 for the most part.
Without gining the dragon an effect or reducing its cost, there is really no other way to improve it. It needs 1 less attack than Basalt, which itself is somewhat weak, and it will always be 3rd in pecking order of catapult targets unless it gets like 40 hp since armagio is strictly better.
10 :gravity +2cards = 8 Momuntum attack with 5hp+5hp resilience
10 :gravity +1card = 7 normal attack with 15hp resilience
This is close enough to balanced in my opinion that decks with fewer card slots available for win condition cards would select the dragon over the charger and vice versa.
The same argument is not nearly as close using the current Massive dragon
10 :gravity +2cards = 14 Momuntum attack with 5hp+5hp resilience
Now: 11 :gravity +1card = 7 normal damage with 30hp resilience
My idea: 9 :gravity +1card = 8 normal damage with 15hp resilience
I admit that upgraded my idea still loses some ground when upgraded compared to the charger but I think it would still have a niche in decks with very few slots for win conditions.
Of course you also point out the other solution (make it the king of catapult fodder)
Post by: Ekki on April 02, 2011, 12:29:29 am
Of course you also point out the other solution (make it the king of catapult fodder)No. Please. Also, having 7|8 atk would make it a terrible Catapult fodder, it's mathematic.
It already has a niche, and it's balanced... Most of the dragons are less used due to bad cost to damage ratios, and some more due to high hp. I don't think that should be changed, but a Dragon with 15|30 hp just CAN'T be useful by itself. That hp needs another card to be useful for something.
I agree with your idea OT. I think Colossal Dragon should have 15-20 hp (I don't mind that much for the other stats).
Post by: killybob on April 02, 2011, 08:59:53 am
i agree too. who needs a dragon with 30 hp? what ever could hat be used for? anyway if it were taken down to 20 hp it may reduce the cost a bit too. we want cards that are every bit useful, not ones that have huge added bonuses that no one knows what to do with and is increasing the cost unnecessarily.Of course you also point out the other solution (make it the king of catapult fodder)No. Please. Also, having 7|8 atk would make it a terrible Catapult fodder, it's mathematic.
It already has a niche, and it's balanced... Most of the dragons are less used due to bad cost to damage ratios, and some more due to high hp. I don't think that should be changed, but a Dragon with 15|30 hp just CAN'T be useful by itself. That hp needs another card to be useful for something.
I agree with your idea OT. I think Colossal Dragon should have 15-20 hp (I don't mind that much for the other stats).
Post by: jmdt on April 02, 2011, 09:04:08 am
Catapult much?i agree too. who needs a dragon with 30 hp? what ever could hat be used for? anyway if it were taken down to 20 hp it may reduce the cost a bit too. we want cards that are every bit useful, not ones that have huge added bonuses that no one knows what to do with and is increasing the cost unnecessarily.Of course you also point out the other solution (make it the king of catapult fodder)No. Please. Also, having 7|8 atk would make it a terrible Catapult fodder, it's mathematic.
It already has a niche, and it's balanced... Most of the dragons are less used due to bad cost to damage ratios, and some more due to high hp. I don't think that should be changed, but a Dragon with 15|30 hp just CAN'T be useful by itself. That hp needs another card to be useful for something.
I agree with your idea OT. I think Colossal Dragon should have 15-20 hp (I don't mind that much for the other stats).
Post by: killybob on April 02, 2011, 09:18:55 am
Post by: n00b on February 27, 2012, 02:05:33 am
Post by: furballdn on February 27, 2012, 02:35:35 am
Post by: mesaprotector on February 27, 2012, 02:55:43 am
Post by: kimham8a on February 27, 2012, 06:08:01 am
Post by: eaglgenes101 on February 27, 2012, 06:24:10 am
Post by: Sinolai on March 30, 2012, 05:44:03 am
Post by: Naesala on March 30, 2012, 05:58:49 am
I am not sure if this has already been suggested (I didn't read all the 12 pages) but I suggest to make a new entropy card "Power Trick" that swaps creatures attack and hp for 1 turn. (Possdibly 1 turn delay so that enemy can prepare.) They should also be switched back at the end of enemys turn so that the enemy had a change to kill the creature.1. Way to steal a pokemon attack :P
2. rather than post that here as a buff idead, make the card and submit it to the card ideas section
Post by: Silver on March 30, 2012, 06:12:15 am
Post by: mesaprotector on March 30, 2012, 06:18:51 am
Anyone find a legit use for this yet lol?Voila, deck that can't use Chargers, Titans, or Armagios for the same purpose.
(Still sucks though. Seriously, +1 attack or -1 cost... or how about giving it an obscene amount of HP, like 100?)
Post by: I8SumOrangesNItWasK on March 30, 2012, 08:04:49 am
Post by: whatifidogetcaught? on March 30, 2012, 03:51:38 pm
Post by: n00b on March 30, 2012, 08:57:19 pm
3. Would be OP (consider Dragon's 30 HP or Titan's 50)I am not sure if this has already been suggested (I didn't read all the 12 pages) but I suggest to make a new entropy card "Power Trick" that swaps creatures attack and hp for 1 turn. (Possdibly 1 turn delay so that enemy can prepare.) They should also be switched back at the end of enemys turn so that the enemy had a change to kill the creature.1. Way to steal a pokemon attack :P
2. rather than post that here as a buff idead, make the card and submit it to the card ideas section
Post by: whatifidogetcaught? on March 30, 2012, 10:21:05 pm
shhh...don't tell them that. Armagios too. Heck, gravity creatures in a Chimera as well.3. Would be OP (consider Dragon's 30 HP or Titan's 50)I am not sure if this has already been suggested (I didn't read all the 12 pages) but I suggest to make a new entropy card "Power Trick" that swaps creatures attack and hp for 1 turn. (Possdibly 1 turn delay so that enemy can prepare.) They should also be switched back at the end of enemys turn so that the enemy had a change to kill the creature.1. Way to steal a pokemon attack :P
2. rather than post that here as a buff idead, make the card and submit it to the card ideas section
Post by: dreadwoe on April 12, 2012, 08:34:35 pm
CATAPULT!!!It´s a massive dragon, colossal, it was build to have huge hp....Fire nymph + rage potion:i'd rather use armagio
And he has a ability, airbone.
You can synergy it with fire nymph or rage potion. They are very good agains some jind of creature control like devours, fire lance, rain of fire, thunderstorn, even poison.
You can synergy with gravity pull and healing from angel.
The card don´t need buff or debuf, you are not inspired to use.
Gravity pull and angel= Again, Armagio.
I have now summoned a viscious reptilian beast to annihalate you.
AAAH whatever ill just fling it at you with a giant wooden contraption.
Post by: Anarook on April 12, 2012, 10:41:20 pm
Post by: Jenkar on April 12, 2012, 10:43:31 pm
Post by: darkrobe on April 13, 2012, 12:22:26 am
Post by: EvaRia on April 13, 2012, 01:09:39 am
The main problem with this is that it doesn't hit the field fast enough to be more useful than something else.
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on April 13, 2012, 04:30:31 am
Post by: furballdn on April 13, 2012, 04:33:54 am
@Zblader: not sure if want. I'd prefer the dragons staying vanilla, though those are interesting ideas.
Post by: xdude on April 13, 2012, 04:39:17 am
@Zblader: not sure if want. I'd prefer the dragons staying vanilla, though those are interesting ideas.
Well, Aether Dragon is Immaterial already. A +1|-1 per turn would actually be a pretty good idea, but my concern is that by the time you get these Dragons out you could've already won. What if Gravity had some way of transforming random quanta into Gravity quanta for a quanta acceleration method? It fits the theme, and is contrary to Supernova (though I imagine it would be used with it). Would also be yet another pseudo-counter to Discord.
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on April 13, 2012, 04:42:07 am
@Zblader: not sure if want. I'd prefer the dragons staying vanilla, though those are interesting ideas.
IMHO, Massive Dragon is one of the few cards that is so underused that it might be helpful to sacrifice a little theme for balance's sake, similar to how Phase Dragon was given Immaterial to prevent PU abuse in the early stages of Elements. At the least, giving it a use in fun decks like Skeleton's Undead passive would be a step up from its currently useless state in the current meta due to being overshadowed by all other cards in its element.
Well, Aether Dragon is Immaterial already. A +1|-1 per turn would actually be a pretty good idea, but my concern is that by the time you get these Dragons out you could've already won. What if Gravity had some way of transforming random quanta into Gravity quanta for a quanta acceleration method? It fits the theme, and is contrary to Supernova (though I imagine it would be used with it). Would also be yet another pseudo-counter to Discord.
Hmm. How does the following ability sound? :
"Gravitation - When played, converts 10 | 12 random quanta to :gravity ."
That allows it to counter Discord and provides an interesting "rushy" synergy with Nova, Immolation, and QT.
Post by: OldTrees on April 13, 2012, 04:50:52 am
Aether Dragon is Immaterial because Zanz did not want to balance mono Parallel Universe dragons. Massive Dragon should remain vanilla unless it cannot be balanced as such. That said, I think evidence is accumulating towards that conclusion.@Zblader: not sure if want. I'd prefer the dragons staying vanilla, though those are interesting ideas.
Well, Aether Dragon is Immaterial already. A +1|-1 per turn would actually be a pretty good idea
The late play is a possible problem to tackle without resorting to adding an ability.
Post by: eaglgenes101 on April 13, 2012, 04:52:55 am
Post by: furballdn on April 13, 2012, 04:54:41 am
If we're going to put an ability on it, how about just good old momentum?Treads on charger, and momentum isn't that great of a balance.
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on April 13, 2012, 04:54:49 am
That leads to the question : can Massive Dragon be balanced as a vanilla card?Aether Dragon is Immaterial because Zanz did not want to balance mono Parallel Universe dragons. Massive Dragon should remain vanilla unless it cannot be balanced as such. That said, I think evidence is accumulating towards that conclusion.@Zblader: not sure if want. I'd prefer the dragons staying vanilla, though those are interesting ideas.
Well, Aether Dragon is Immaterial already. A +1|-1 per turn would actually be a pretty good idea, but my concern is that by the time you get these Dragons out you could've already won. What if Gravity had some way of transforming random quanta into Gravity quanta for a quanta acceleration method? It fits the theme, and is contrary to Supernova (though I imagine it would be used with it). Would also be yet another pseudo-counter to Discord.
I feel that would either result in a stat change that shifts it more towards the other dragons which still leaves it conflicted with the midhitting Charger in terms of speed, similar to :earth Stone Dragon vs. Steel Golem :earth or :fire Crimson Dragon vs. Seraph vs Phoenix :fire . IMHO, preserving the series theme it is important but we also have to consider serious underuse and card role conflict that Massive Dragon suffers from in general.
Post by: Arum on April 13, 2012, 05:00:09 am
Post by: darkrobe on April 13, 2012, 05:10:19 am
Why Is everyone forgetting about overdrive/this card? Upped equals over 40 damage a turn. You can heal with momentum or angels.
people arent forgetting about it. their are better and more productive uses for acceleration.
Post by: OldTrees on April 13, 2012, 05:11:19 am
Why Is everyone forgetting about overdrive/this card? Upped equals over 40 damage a turn. You can heal with momentum or angels.They are not forgetting it. They recognize that the dragon is ignored in favor of armagio. Why? Because armagio is balanced but the dragon is UP.
Post by: furballdn on April 13, 2012, 06:24:56 pm
Why Is everyone forgetting about overdrive/this card? Upped equals over 40 damage a turn. You can heal with momentum or angels.Takes too long for overdrive to build up that much. Overdrive on armagio is faster.
Post by: Arum on April 14, 2012, 12:03:09 am
How so? This beins with 7-8 atk. Amiago only has 1. This gets higher damage faster.Why Is everyone forgetting about overdrive/this card? Upped equals over 40 damage a turn. You can heal with momentum or angels.Takes too long for overdrive to build up that much. Overdrive on armagio is faster.
Post by: furballdn on April 14, 2012, 12:15:13 am
Begins with more attack at double the cost.How so? This beins with 7-8 atk. Amiago only has 1. This gets higher damage faster.Why Is everyone forgetting about overdrive/this card? Upped equals over 40 damage a turn. You can heal with momentum or angels.Takes too long for overdrive to build up that much. Overdrive on armagio is faster.
Post by: darkrobe on April 14, 2012, 01:02:49 am
Even in a scenario where you are generating a good amount of quanta early on. Lets say 5 :gravity a turn.
damage
dragon armagio
Turn 0 0 0
Turn 1 0 2
Turn 2 0 5
Turn 3 11 8
-------------------------------
Total: 11 15
the armagio outpaces the dragon in total damage done due to quicker play of the combo. and you have left over :gravity to pay for other cards. using dragons for this is combo simply doesnt make sense.
Post by: eaglgenes101 on May 11, 2012, 01:41:51 am
10 :gravity : 6|12. Momentum.
12 :gravity : 8|20. Momentum.
Post by: mesaprotector on May 11, 2012, 02:01:23 am
It's simple - raise its HP to something ridiculous, like 70 unupped and 90 upped. That would make it usable in Catapult/OTK decks, where presently there's no reason to use it over Titan. It could also be legitimately used with Gravity Pull - since Elite Armagio has the same HP as the upped dragon with a built-in skill, again the dragon is currently pointless in the regard.
Post by: kimham8a on May 11, 2012, 02:12:12 am
9 :gravity versus 15 :gravity for the same combo. even if dragon has more starting attack, it takes more turns to play it because it is more expensive.
Even in a scenario where you are generating a good amount of quanta early on. Lets say 5 :gravity a turn.
damage
dragon armagio
Turn 0 0 0
Turn 1 0 2
Turn 2 0 5
Turn 3 11 8
-------------------------------
Total: 11 15
the armagio outpaces the dragon in total damage done due to quicker play of the combo. and you have left over :gravity to pay for other cards. using dragons for this is combo simply doesnt make sense.
Your chosen quanta generation per turn was too favoured towards armagio and not dragon. If the quanta generation was 4 or 6, the dragon would be better or same on all turns but the 2nd or 3rd (depending on the chosen number)
also its wrong to consider only total dmg when the dmg is so low. Even with the quanta generating favoured for armagio, dragon quickly outdmgs it.
But armagio is still the better choice because of the quanta saved in the end (7). My point is that damage or speed of damage is not the reason armagio is better to overdrive.
Post by: kimham8a on May 11, 2012, 02:20:13 am
There is a way to balance this as a vanilla card - hear me out on this one. ;)
It's simple - raise its HP to something ridiculous, like 70 unupped and 90 upped. That would make it usable in Catapult/OTK decks, where presently there's no reason to use it over Titan. It could also be legitimately used with Gravity Pull - since Elite Armagio has the same HP as the upped dragon with a built-in skill, again the dragon is currently pointless in the regard.
Sorry for the double post, but with my current device i cant quote two ppl in one post.
Anyway, 60 hp is enough. 90 or 70 would be OP. Two of these i believe will be a KO, or the 70s with momentum. Im not sure on this though.
Post by: AquaticImpalement on May 13, 2012, 06:26:06 am
Post by: furballdn on May 13, 2012, 06:45:25 am
Colossal dragon, isn't meant to be dealy. That's what the red dragons are for. Colossal dragons are meant to be BIG. And while bigness in itself isn't much of ahighlight on it's own, in comobs it can be deadly. Take, for example, a gravity-earth duo. The colossal dragon has 30HP and 8ATK. Two Rage Potions and it's an 18|22 creature. Add momentum and you have a 19|23 colossal dragon that can't be blocked. Now let's look at another thing: If you add light to that, you can also give it acceleration, and repetetively heal it with an Archangel. Now let's make this even bigger: add earth and you can repetetively Basilisk Blood it. Afterwards, cast Chimera, and MORE RAGE POTIONS! If your opponent hasn't been deadened by now you're doing something terribly wrong. Aaaaand now I'm ranting. But the very very very dull point here is that alone, no, neither the massive nore colossal dragons are gamechangers. But Gravity overall really isn't explosive on it's own.And a how many card combo is that? 6 :fire + 11 :gravity + 1 :gravity + 4 cards + potential :light combo with even more cards for an 18|22 creature. What a great deal!
Post by: AquaticImpalement on May 13, 2012, 07:44:16 am
Colossal dragon, isn't meant to be dealy. That's what the red dragons are for. Colossal dragons are meant to be BIG. And while bigness in itself isn't much of ahighlight on it's own, in comobs it can be deadly. Take, for example, a gravity-earth duo. The colossal dragon has 30HP and 8ATK. Two Rage Potions and it's an 18|22 creature. Add momentum and you have a 19|23 colossal dragon that can't be blocked. Now let's look at another thing: If you add light to that, you can also give it acceleration, and repetetively heal it with an Archangel. Now let's make this even bigger: add earth and you can repetetively Basilisk Blood it. Afterwards, cast Chimera, and MORE RAGE POTIONS! If your opponent hasn't been deadened by now you're doing something terribly wrong. Aaaaand now I'm ranting. But the very very very dull point here is that alone, no, neither the massive nore colossal dragons are gamechangers. But Gravity overall really isn't explosive on it's own.And a how many card combo is that? 6 :fire + 11 :gravity + 1 :gravity + 4 cards + potential :light combo with even more cards for an 18|22 creature. What a great deal!
IKR. Okay so, maybe it's a bit very impractical but the point still stands that paired with other cards, it can take someone's HP bar and smash it over their head like a watermelon. Thinking about it more I think a buff to 9-10 ATK would be a good thing. But I'm half asleep right now and can't think very straight. Disregard this if what I am saying or was saying is or was stupid, which, I don't doubt.
Post by: whatifidogetcaught? on May 13, 2012, 06:02:41 pm
It seems to me that it only for show and just being an immovable object.
Post by: EvaRia on May 14, 2012, 06:22:34 am
I was thinking about this and I think the main problem really is that this thing is in the wrong damage tier.
It was balanced towards its cost which causes problems in its usefulness...
I think it might be used more if it gets bumped up higher, like Golden Dragon was.
Colossal dragon 9/18 for 12 :gravity
Massive dragon 12/30 for 14 :gravity
Maybe?
Post by: Captain Scibra on May 14, 2012, 06:27:30 am
Post by: Naesala on May 14, 2012, 06:42:38 am
Dragon needs momentum, to make it a combined Armagio and charger for more cost, or a significant attack boost, though I prefer option 1
Post by: Vilkacis on September 06, 2012, 11:54:15 am
- A shield/Gravity Pull effect where the dragon absorbs 1 damage from each attacking creature (and weapon?)
- Give it acceleration as an ability
- Give it catapult as an ability
- Give it an ability that allows it to stop attacking and increase attack by +2 per turn or +2/-1 (upgraded could be +3/-1 per turn)
- Combine the shield and increased attack power abilities so you could stop the dragon atacking, it absorbs 1 damage per attacking creature and gains 2 attack per turn
Post by: n00b on September 06, 2012, 12:01:47 pm
Post by: Ilias22 on September 06, 2012, 12:20:52 pm
Post by: blueberrymania on September 07, 2012, 02:55:49 am
Post by: OldTrees on September 07, 2012, 03:09:18 am
I definately think this DOESN'T need a buff. I think its good as is.Please include reasons to support your assertions.
Compare
Colossal Dragon: 7|15 for 10 :gravity => 8|30 for 11 :gravity
vs
Stone Dragon: 8|10 for 10 :earth => 10|12 for 12 :earth (Better stats then Colossal)
or
Armagio: 1|25 for 5 :gravity => 2|30 for 5 :gravity (Cheaper HP than Colossal)
Post by: omegareaper7 on September 07, 2012, 03:27:40 am
I definately think this DOESN'T need a buff. I think its good as is.A dragon is not fine when it REQUIRES a second card to be ANY good at all.
Post by: Vangelios on September 07, 2012, 10:59:11 am
Post by: Absol on September 07, 2012, 12:29:55 pm
I find it quite useful, its resistance can be used with acceleration, catapult and gravity pull, besides being difficult to kill him, 3 lightning!,With the same quanta, i can summon 2 Chargers. Which are 8 attacks, 2 Lightning resistant, and momentum.
Upgraded, i can use it to summon 14 attacks, 2 Lightning resistant, and Momentum as opposed to 8 blockable attacks but very tough. Once HP exceeds 15, there's little incentive to actually try and kill the creature.
EDIT: and an extra :gravity too.
Post by: blueberrymania on September 07, 2012, 01:10:20 pm
edit: fixed my post
Post by: willng3 on September 07, 2012, 01:20:12 pm
Is your definition of "Lightning resistant" something that gets killed by a single Lightning?I find it quite useful, its resistance can be used with acceleration, catapult and gravity pull, besides being difficult to kill him, 3 lightning!,With the same quanta, i can summon 2 Chargers. Which are 8 attacks, 2 Lightning resistant, and momentum.
Upgraded, i can use it to summon 14 attacks, 2 Lightning resistant, and Momentum as opposed to 8 blockable attacks but very tough. Once HP exceeds 15, there's little incentive to actually try and kill the creature.
EDIT: and an extra :gravity too.
Post by: Absol on September 07, 2012, 01:44:11 pm
I mean, even if you kill one, the other will still do damage.
Post by: omegareaper7 on September 07, 2012, 02:29:28 pm
It doesn't need a buff because it has so much HP. If you want to make it have 8 attack, and 10 attack upped, change it to 11 HP unupped and 13 HP upped.So you want to make the worst dragon even worse? You do realize hp ONLY synergizes with gravity right? So what if its hard to kill, that's what gravity is supposed to do!
edit: fixed my post
Post by: OldTrees on September 07, 2012, 06:41:04 pm
Thank you for adding reasoning.It doesn't need a buff because it has so much HP. If you want to make it have 8 attack, and 10 attack upped, change it to 11 HP unupped and 13 HP upped.I definately think this DOESN'T need a buff. I think its good as is.Please include reasons to support your assertions.
Compare
Colossal Dragon: 7|15 for 10 :gravity => 8|30 for 11 :gravity
vs
Stone Dragon: 8|10 for 10 :earth => 10|12 for 12 :earth (Better stats then Colossal)
or
Armagio: 1|25 for 5 :gravity => 2|30 for 5 :gravity (Cheaper HP than Colossal)
I assume that you find Stone Dragon balanced? We will start with Stone Dragon and then see if the differences are fair.
Is 10hp -> 15 hp worth a full -1 attack? Why?
-1 casting cost (the cost to play the card) is worth -1 attack
Is 12hp -> 30 hp worth a full -1 attack? Why?
Post by: summerz88 on September 07, 2012, 06:53:25 pm
Post by: OldTrees on September 07, 2012, 07:00:35 pm
I believe not all the dragons were created equal, I believe that the earth/colossal dragon is one of the weaker dragons, I dont believe it needs to be buffed, that simple.I believe that the efficiency (Total benefit counting all simultaneous benefit / Total cost counting all types of cost) of all cards in EtG should be equal with in a narrow margin of error. This is my definition of balanced.
However I do not have a definite opinion of Colossal Dragon. (Although I think Colossal is more deserving than Massive at this time)
Post by: blueberrymania on September 08, 2012, 02:40:28 pm
Agreed. "Lightning resistance" should only be measured by how many lightning attacks something can survive, not how many lightning something can take before it dies.Is your definition of "Lightning resistant" something that gets killed by a single Lightning?I find it quite useful, its resistance can be used with acceleration, catapult and gravity pull, besides being difficult to kill him, 3 lightning!,With the same quanta, i can summon 2 Chargers. Which are 8 attacks, 2 Lightning resistant, and momentum.
Upgraded, i can use it to summon 14 attacks, 2 Lightning resistant, and Momentum as opposed to 8 blockable attacks but very tough. Once HP exceeds 15, there's little incentive to actually try and kill the creature.
EDIT: and an extra :gravity too.
Post by: Absol on September 08, 2012, 05:43:14 pm
Agreed. "Lightning resistance" should only be measured by how many lightning attacks something can survive, not how many lightning something can take before it dies.Is your definition of "Lightning resistant" something that gets killed by a single Lightning?I find it quite useful, its resistance can be used with acceleration, catapult and gravity pull, besides being difficult to kill him, 3 lightning!,With the same quanta, i can summon 2 Chargers. Which are 8 attacks, 2 Lightning resistant, and momentum.
Upgraded, i can use it to summon 14 attacks, 2 Lightning resistant, and Momentum as opposed to 8 blockable attacks but very tough. Once HP exceeds 15, there's little incentive to actually try and kill the creature.
EDIT: and an extra :gravity too.
Erm. Should have rephrased that.Read.
I mean, even if you kill one, the other will still do damage.
Post by: choongmyoung on September 13, 2012, 10:48:11 pm
Agreed. "Lightning resistance" should only be measured by how many lightning attacks something can survive, not how many lightning something can take before it dies.Is your definition of "Lightning resistant" something that gets killed by a single Lightning?I find it quite useful, its resistance can be used with acceleration, catapult and gravity pull, besides being difficult to kill him, 3 lightning!,With the same quanta, i can summon 2 Chargers. Which are 8 attacks, 2 Lightning resistant, and momentum.
Upgraded, i can use it to summon 14 attacks, 2 Lightning resistant, and Momentum as opposed to 8 blockable attacks but very tough. Once HP exceeds 15, there's little incentive to actually try and kill the creature.
EDIT: and an extra :gravity too.
Actually, if there was just one lightning (or between the first and second lightning), charger army will get 4(7 upped) damage while the dragon deals 8(9 upped) since dragon will NOT killed.
If you use snipe(much more used), you need 4 sniping.
But yes, I agree with your claiming. You got the right point.