Post by: Robotocracy on October 20, 2010, 03:13:51 am
(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Upgrade.png)
One of the newest cards to enter elements, chimera is one of the most interesting and unique cards in the game. It could've had a lot of potential for new strategies, which is why it is particularly unfortunate that chimera, in its current state, is completely useless.
Let me explain.
Chimera allows you to combine all your creatures into one, so on first glance it appears to be a powerful card. However, once you get over the initial novelty, you realize that the chimera only has two benefits you could use: it has momentum and gravity pull. The cost you pay for these benefits is disproportionately large: first off, all the abilities your creatures might have had are gone. The next HUGE drawback you notice is that now instead of having to deal with a whole mass of creatures, your opponent only has to deal with one creature. One creature that can be frozen, lobotomized, paradoxed, or delayed. Or how about reverse time? If your chimera gets reversed, you end up with the chimera SPELL card in your hand next turn. All your creatures are gone. Or even worse, if your chimera gets antimattered and the sum of all your creatures' attack power is now given to your opponent as healing. So at the end of the day you've used up precious deck space, 7-8 quanta, and made your creatures significantly more vulnerable in exchange for essentially a worse off version of unstoppable.
Also, did I mention that chimera's two only assets actively work against each other?
The two strategies you could use with chimera is either
1) Using the gravity pull to have the chimera work as a sort of living shield (note that it doesn't block poison, spells, or even weapons). In this case momentum doesn’t hurt, but it really doesn’t help much.
Or
2) Using the momentum to rush your creatures’ damage over a pesky shield. In this case, the gravity pull has allowed all of your opponent’s creatures to gang up on your chimera, ensuring its quick death.
By the way, if you thought about using twin universe on your chimera to double your attack power, it doesn’t work. There can only be one chimera on the field at a time.
As you can see, chimera is hurtful rather than helpful in the vast majority of all situations. It is in no way viable for serious deck building. I’m not sure how (suggestions?) but it really needs to be buffed.
Post by: guolin on October 20, 2010, 03:27:59 am
Number 2) is the reason behind some Chimera decks, as little critters can be blocked by the pesky Permafrost Shield or Hope (!!!!).
Post by: BC on October 20, 2010, 03:37:21 am
Post by: Ekki on October 20, 2010, 03:44:28 am
I think chimera needs a passive ability ("chimera") that releases fused creatures upon death, with probably a penalty on attack and hp.I don't think that would be actually useful... Why would you want to un-fuse your chimera, in order to bring back your old creatures, but debuffed? :-\
I thought of reducing its quanta cost, it doesn't matter how much, because it'll never be OP...
I really like chimera and I'd want to see it buffed ;D
Maybe run a poll
Post by: EvaRia on October 20, 2010, 03:48:34 am
I mean, it's essentially a bunch of creatures mashed up together right?
That would be cool.
Post by: BC on October 20, 2010, 03:52:11 am
I don't think that would be actually useful... Why would you want to un-fuse your chimera, in order to bring back your old creatures, but debuffed? :-\Hm? You wouldn't unfuse it yourself. It unfuses itself when it is killed. Card advantage is good, that's why chimera is so unpopular right now. Putting all of your eggs in one (rather fragile) basket is a very bad idea. By making it actually give the fused creatures back open death (although with penalty), you lessen that problem.
Post by: Ekki on October 20, 2010, 03:57:00 am
It's a good idea, but I don't know how would the coding of it work ???
I still stick to the "reduce the cost" idea ;D
Post by: SnoWeb on October 20, 2010, 07:25:05 am
However, I don't see a good solution right now.
Post by: doomeister on October 20, 2010, 08:02:25 am
Post by: SnoWeb on October 20, 2010, 08:30:44 am
Why not make it immortal?I though about that one. The thing is that it doesn't really fit the theme, IMO. I would rather remove the gravity pull.
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on October 20, 2010, 10:23:54 am
Anyway this card is best as a last attack card, every crippled/disabled creature (frozen field against Permafrost anyone?) gets usefull attack again, allowing for an attack that cannot be stopped nor forseen, just make sure it doesn't last long enough to get targetted.
I might use it more if the cost were reduced though.
Post by: Mifurre on October 20, 2010, 10:25:41 am
Post by: genraenera on October 22, 2010, 01:20:00 am
Post by: Kuross on October 22, 2010, 01:25:26 am
Post by: EvaRia on October 22, 2010, 02:52:44 am
But yeah, I think a -1 or -2 cost would be perfect.
Post by: kurathedog on October 23, 2010, 09:50:59 pm
Or make it X, where X is the sum off all your creatures stats +1 per creature.
So it is actually better.
TU flying titan is also fun.
And imagine orisis with this... O.o
Post by: johannhowitzer on October 23, 2010, 10:08:57 pm
Quote
Why not make it immortal? It can still be killed fairly easily because of gravity pull, but will be immune to its main weaknesses like antimatter etc.When I imagine playing Chimera in a deck, I imagine a :gravity :aether deck with quints and recluses. Mash them together and pop the blob with immortality. Or toss in fractals and go with Graviton Guards instead.
Roughly this:
Code: [Select]
747 747 747 747 747 747 74g 74g 74g 74g 75m 75m 75m 75m 75m 75m 80h 80h 80h 80h 80i 80i 80i 80i 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q
Post by: Xrbeta on October 24, 2010, 01:08:15 pm
Post by: Daytripper on October 24, 2010, 01:45:14 pm
Post by: Ekki on October 24, 2010, 04:38:20 pm
Well I have won several games against the Chimera, even while I was losing pretty badly before it was cast. There is the reverse time, or you simply kill the Chimera. If it was immortal, then yes, it would be a terrible weapon. A small buff might be an idea: The Chimera would be immune to spells, but not to regular damage from gravity pull. That way you can use it for a few turns at least.Immortal chimera is still affected by gravity pull...
Post by: Daytripper on October 24, 2010, 08:54:10 pm
Post by: Uppercut on October 25, 2010, 12:58:04 am
Post by: johannhowitzer on October 25, 2010, 01:14:52 am
Post by: kurathedog on October 25, 2010, 03:05:06 am
The Gravity pull is more weakness than strength, unless it has a lot of health (scarabs, gravity cards).
I guess it is late game card, but at that point quanta doesn't matter, so might as well -1 cost.
Freeze, lobo, and RT are especially strong against this (lobo not so much)
It effectively lobos all your creatures, too.
Post by: XYTWO on October 31, 2010, 12:30:59 am
Yeah, I played a :gravity :earth deck against a rainbow the other day and locked out all his creatures with gravity shield and basilisk blood. Last second, he played chimera and knocked me out. Definitely a panic-button card.Couldn't have put it better, in my opinion. If stuff is freaking out and you can't bypass (however unlikely) RoL/Hope, it's mass Momentum time. Chimera is not for the early game. It's a finishing touch. All of your creatures are freezing? That Permafrost shall bother you no more.
Post by: TheOnlyNewb on October 31, 2010, 07:01:41 am
Why not give it a mutant ability too?I like it.
I mean, it's essentially a bunch of creatures mashed up together right?
That would be cool.
Post by: Robsta43 on October 31, 2010, 11:46:01 am
Basalisk's Blood deck
Code: [Select]
6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 74g 74g 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 77f 77f 77h 77h 77h 77h 77h 77h 77l 77l 77l 77l 77l 77l 77s 77s 77s 78q 78q 78q 78qAlthough able to make 20/100+ chimeras after about 7 turns pretty much every time, most decks can kill this off pretty quickly since it doesn't have a permafrost or diamond shield attached to itI'm not sure how Chimera could become a more mono/duo friendly card, but for now it looks like a final smash for rainbow decks meant to last only 1 or 2 turns and bypass shields.
Post by: Dan43 on October 31, 2010, 03:41:58 pm
That makes it so it can only be destroyed by your enemy's creatures attacks.
Post by: Kuross on October 31, 2010, 05:32:08 pm
Chimera should be immaterial.That would also mean you couldn't BB it either. Not sure if that would be an upgrade or not.
That makes it so it can only be destroyed by your enemy's creatures attacks.
Post by: johannhowitzer on October 31, 2010, 06:22:37 pm
That would also mean you couldn't BB it either. Not sure if that would be an upgrade or not.BB was for the creatures before the Chimera is cast, to maximize its health. BB on a Chimera will keep it from damaging your opponent for six turns!
Post by: Kuross on October 31, 2010, 06:30:37 pm
Yeah, BB was a bad example, but the point I was trying to make was creature buffs wouldn't affect Chimera and who knows what fun cards will come out in the future that may affect Chimera.That would also mean you couldn't BB it either. Not sure if that would be an upgrade or not.BB was for the creatures before the Chimera is cast, to maximize its health. BB on a Chimera will keep it from damaging your opponent for six turns!
I'm just a fan of dumping more cards into the game on a regular basis. With the inclusion of each new card older cards change, sometimes for the better, and sometimes for the worse. Guess I'd just like to see new cards coming soon then looking at buffs/nerfs at that time.
Post by: johannhowitzer on November 01, 2010, 12:10:48 am
Post by: Kuross on November 01, 2010, 12:36:28 am
We do get a heads-up on cards in development; if you regularly check the "Show unread posts since last visit" link at the top near your avatar, and not just the "Show new replies to your posts," you will occasionally see threads that say something like "In Development: X." These threads are for discussion of new cards Zanz is getting ready to implement, and there is always heavy discussion. He often changes the cards before implementation; chances are excellent he has done so in the past based in part on reasons brought up in those threads.*is not new to the forums* ;)
Point I seem to have failed at making is that rather than buff/nerf cards, look for new cards to be made that would indirectly buff/nerf existing cards.
Post by: johannhowitzer on November 01, 2010, 03:11:50 am
Post by: QuantumT on November 01, 2010, 09:07:19 am
Ah, yes, that's a good tactic. Too bad Zanz isn't paid to do this, eh? Otherwise we might see more new stuffs.You can donate. It's not much but it's something.
Post by: johannhowitzer on November 01, 2010, 06:31:31 pm
Post by: Demut on November 01, 2010, 10:43:31 pm
Post by: Uppercut on November 01, 2010, 11:12:42 pm
Post by: Kuross on November 01, 2010, 11:28:38 pm
I think that when Parallel Universe'd the new one should absorb the old one (effectively doubling its stats) as opposed to just destroying the old one.Umm... that'd be a bit OP. I play a Titan, then fly it. Next turn, I fly a second Titan then TU it. Now I have 3 flying Titans in play. I cast Chimera, and now have a 24/150 creature. TU the chimera and now it's a 48/300. Ouch. Cards used in total- 3 Titans, 2 Flying Weapons, 2 TUs and a Chimera.
When Chimera first came out, the first thing I did was experiment with decks. It wasn't that hard to get the cards out as I listed. It was just a matter of me not doing enough damage to compete. Keep in mind Aether is involved so you have access to Quints and Phase shields. Not to hard to abuse TU'd chimeras should TU'ing it the way you described be implemented.
Post by: Uppercut on November 02, 2010, 12:21:38 am
Post by: hainkarga on November 03, 2010, 06:24:29 am
This makes the devour part "on demand", gets rid of gravity pull, and allows it to grow further as you spawn more creatures. Combination of otyugh & chimera. Adds the stats of the target creature to itself (not just +1/+1)
(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2976/chimera01.png)
Ability can be used when chimera comes into play and it can be used multiple times in a turn. It can devour your creature regardless of its stats (unlike otyugh, can devour a creature with hp higher than it has), and adds its stats to itself. Reduced casting cost to balance the :gravity activation cost. Can only be used on creatures you control.
May also be immaterial but it doesn't suit gravity very much. If its ability can be used when it comes to play, text can be back to "Momentum, Gravity Pull".
Post by: Memorystick on November 03, 2010, 11:51:34 am
Just an idea;Why not change the "devour" to "absorb", since they're basically different abilities?
This makes the devour part "on demand", gets rid of gravity pull, and allows it to grow further as you spawn more creatures. Combination of otyugh & chimera. Adds the stats of the target creature to itself (not just +1/+1)
(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2976/chimera01.png)
Ability can be used when chimera comes into play and it can be used multiple times in a turn. It can devour your creature regardless of its stats (unlike otyugh, can devour a creature with hp higher than it has), and adds its stats to itself. Reduced casting cost to balance the :gravity activation cost. Can only be used on creatures you control.
May also be immaterial but it doesn't suit gravity very much. If its ability can be used when it comes to play, text can be back to "Momentum, Gravity Pull".
IMO, currently, Chimera is more of a "finisher" card than anything else- too vulnerable to be used without quint + GP on something you just played, unless you use it to land the killing blow. I think a buff is definitely in order, be it a change in mechanic or a change in cost (or a mutant ability, which would be nice too)
Post by: Demut on November 03, 2010, 03:47:58 pm
Post by: QuantumT on November 03, 2010, 03:55:06 pm
You can use gravity pull to take the gravity pull off the chimera, alowing you to use its 30 attack power safely.That just seems like a lot to pay to be able to use the card. That means it's at least a 3 card combo, and that still comes at the expense of making the chimera more vulnerable to most CC.
Personally, I think it would be more balanced if it was immaterial. At least that way, one reverse time/freeze/mutate/antimatter/basilisk blood wouldn't completely disable it.
Right now, it's status is exclusively that of a finisher, but most of the time it will be a win-more card.
Post by: Rooftrellen on November 03, 2010, 04:35:03 pm
I think that when Parallel Universe'd the new one should absorb the old one (effectively doubling its stats) as opposed to just destroying the old one.That would be OP and confusing.
OP because 2 cards could double the attack of the sum of your creatures.
Confusing because the TU puts another chimera into play, which would simply add together all the creatures on your side into one super monster. The game has enough hidden rules without needing a hugely powerful hidden combo.
Post by: Demut on November 03, 2010, 06:13:55 pm
Quote
That just seems like a lot to pay to be able to use the card. That means it's at least a 3 card combo, and that still comes at the expense of making the chimera more vulnerable to most CC.A card game is built out of three segments, early game, mid-game and late game.
According to opening theory, the earlier in the gamew, the simpler the strategies should be.
Chimera is not an opening strategy, which is why you should only have three copies in any deck, it is a mid-game card. Your opening cards should be defensive in nature, such as a shield.
Post by: QuantumT on November 03, 2010, 06:17:40 pm
It seems pretty UP for a late game card. In most games, playing it will make very little difference.QuoteThat just seems like a lot to pay to be able to use the card. That means it's at least a 3 card combo, and that still comes at the expense of making the chimera more vulnerable to most CC.A card game is built out of three segments, early game, mid-game and late game.
According to opening theory, the earlier in the gamew, the simpler the strategies should be.
Chimera is not an opening strategy, which is why you should only have three copies in any deck, it is a mid-game card. Your opening cards should be defensive in nature, such as a shield.
And I would say that the max number for Chimeras in a deck is 1, as any drawn after this are almost always completely dead cards. You'd rather not draw it than draw 2.
Post by: Demut on November 03, 2010, 06:25:55 pm
The standard trifecta to any strategy game is
Rush, boom, turtle.
Rush is an attack in the early game.
Boom is a mid-game assault.
Turtle is a late game assault.
Although people usually assume this is a counter system, there is no reason for it to be. Chess for example.
This is a mid-game assault.
Take the Steam Engine/Chimera strategy. You start your early game placing down one steam machine, making use of ice shield for a defense. Build it up until you can afford the chimera, as soon as you can, use the chimera keeping their high attack power. Play another engine, gravity pull it. If possible play a third and build it up.
The high HP of the steam machines make them ideal.
Without the gravity pull, it would be quite overpowered. If you feel it is up, give it a ten hp boost.
Post by: QuantumT on November 03, 2010, 06:37:00 pm
Mid-game card, not late game. Mid game, and i think its rather fine. And you do want three, because you must think about this mathematically. You don't need to draw it in the early game, but you do need it in the mid-game. And three cards is the ideal number for drawing at least one by the mid-game.The reason I say one is that while 1 may be nice, any more that are drawn will almost always be dead cards.
Quote
Take the Steam Engine/Chimera strategy. You start your early game placing down one steam machine, making use of ice shield for a defense. Build it up until you can afford the chimera, as soon as you can, use the chimera keeping their high attack power. Play another engine, gravity pull it. If possible play a third and build it up.What does Chimera do for the steam machine that momentum doesn't? Playing Chimera on it makes the creature you've spent a decent amount of time building up vulnerable to every creature the opponent has, lobotomizes it, and costs way more.
The high HP of the steam machines make them ideal.
Quote
Without the gravity pull, it would be quite overpowered. If you feel it is up, give it a ten hp boost.It might be too strong without gravity pull, but my suggestion is to make it immortal. Right now there's just too many cards that trade a ton of cards for one with chimera.
Or to reference what you said in the discord thread, Chimera has too many hard counters. Reverse time is a completely hard counter, and antimatter, mutation, freeze and basilisk blood are pretty close.
Post by: doomeister on November 03, 2010, 07:29:05 pm
And you have to make sure you kill him in one hit otherwise he might freeze, reverse time, antimatter, basilisk blood or kill it through the gravity pull effect and then you have lost all your creatures.
I think making it immortal or giving it some stat boost is the only way to make it competitive.
Post by: Demut on November 03, 2010, 07:56:14 pm
Quote
What does Chimera do for the steam machine that momentum doesn't? Playing Chimera on it makes the creature you've spent a decent amount of time building up vulnerable to every creature the opponent has, lobotomizes it, and costs way more.Its basically this. With steam machine every turn its attack drops by one and it costs two fire to per turn to use. Meaning to play more then one you need at least eight fire pillars. However when you chimera it, its attacks stays the same and doesn't drop allowing you to play a second increasing your total damage per turn by a lot. The momentum is just a bonus.
The alternative is to lobotomize the card at a certain point. This is a fine strategy as well, but the momentum addition gives it some additional flexibility.
Post by: Demut on November 03, 2010, 07:58:23 pm
Quote
The reason I say one is that while 1 may be nice, any more that are drawn will almost always be dead cards.You fail at math. Its better to draw two too many then one not at all.
Quote
It might be too strong without gravity pull, but my suggestion is to make it immortal. Right now there's just too many cards that trade a ton of cards for one with chimera.True that.
Or to reference what you said in the discord thread, Chimera has too many hard counters. Reverse time is a completely hard counter, and antimatter, mutation, freeze and basilisk blood are pretty close.
Post by: QuantumT on November 03, 2010, 08:12:18 pm
I'm not sure where the 8 fire pillars comes from. Seems to me like it needs 2 fire pillars per steam machine.QuoteWhat does Chimera do for the steam machine that momentum doesn't? Playing Chimera on it makes the creature you've spent a decent amount of time building up vulnerable to every creature the opponent has, lobotomizes it, and costs way more.Its basically this. With steam machine every turn its attack drops by one and it costs two fire to per turn to use. Meaning to play more then one you need at least eight fire pillars. However when you chimera it, its attacks stays the same and doesn't drop allowing you to play a second increasing your total damage per turn by a lot. The momentum is just a bonus.
And it also only increases damage if you've lost the ability to power it. Otherwise it decreases damage because you can no longer grow them.
Quote
The alternative is to lobotomize the card at a certain point. This is a fine strategy as well, but the momentum addition gives it some additional flexibility.This is one of Chimera's strong points. It clears freeze, infection, and delay.
I disagree. The benefits gained by playing chimera are small enough that they're outweighed by the uselessness of every one drawn beyond the first.QuoteThe reason I say one is that while 1 may be nice, any more that are drawn will almost always be dead cards.You fail at math. Its better to draw two too many then one not at all.
Post by: smuglapse on November 03, 2010, 08:59:27 pm
I think that when Parallel Universe'd the new one should absorb the old one (effectively doubling its stats) as opposed to just destroying the old one.One way to implement that would be to make 'chimera' a primary ability rather than an innate (passive) skill. That way you could lobo or LS the Chimera then TU it to make 2.
From what I can tell from reading this thread the only point of the chimera cards existence is to finish of an already weakened opponent, but only if you already have lots of creatures out and he has a shield blocking most the damage- because otherwise you would win anyway.You could think of it as a spell that grants Momentum to all your creatures and cures their status effects (infection, frozen, delay), making it a strong counter to shields (Permafrost, Hope, Dim, Turtle, Dusk, etc.), but with the penalty of greater risk to CC (BB, Rewind, AM) or mass creatures (Gravity Pull). Using it in combo with Quint or Gravity Pull cushions against those risks.
And you have to make sure you kill him in one hit otherwise he might freeze, reverse time, antimatter, basilisk blood or kill it through the gravity pull effect and then you have lost all your creatures.
I think making it immortal or giving it some stat boost is the only way to make it competitive.
It seems like it does need a buff. Making the 'chimera' skill removable could help.
Post by: shinyarceus4 on November 03, 2010, 09:26:37 pm
Post by: Demut on November 03, 2010, 09:53:03 pm
Quote
I'm not sure where the 8 fire pillars comes from. Seems to me like it needs 2 fire pillars per steam machine.I meant pendelums not pillars. And it increases damage because you are able to then plat a second machine without losing the attack power of the first.
And it also only increases damage if you've lost the ability to power it. Otherwise it decreases damage because you can no longer grow them.
Quote
I disagree. The benefits gained by playing chimera are small enough that they're outweighed by the uselessness of every one drawn beyond the first.Not 100% useless. The additional Chimera cards can heal the first of any status ailments and if it come down to it, you can chimera the second machine and place another.
Another thing you can do is do a Gravity/Dark combo. Using dark's liquid shadow to remove the gravity pull.
Post by: Demut on November 03, 2010, 10:02:31 pm
Post by: Memorystick on November 03, 2010, 10:33:37 pm
Gravity pull is a status, like adrenaline- thus, it cannot be lobo'd or removed via LS/BE (although armagio's gravity pull ability can be lobo'd, etc.QuoteI'm not sure where the 8 fire pillars comes from. Seems to me like it needs 2 fire pillars per steam machine.I meant pendelums not pillars. And it increases damage because you are able to then plat a second machine without losing the attack power of the first.
And it also only increases damage if you've lost the ability to power it. Otherwise it decreases damage because you can no longer grow them.QuoteI disagree. The benefits gained by playing chimera are small enough that they're outweighed by the uselessness of every one drawn beyond the first.Not 100% useless. The additional Chimera cards can heal the first of any status ailments and if it come down to it, you can chimera the second machine and place another.
Another thing you can do is do a Gravity/Dark combo. Using dark's liquid shadow to remove the gravity pull.
Post by: Demut on November 03, 2010, 10:43:54 pm
Post by: Demut on November 04, 2010, 02:16:25 am
But now after trying out the deck again, I just found that my ealier success was a fluke of luck. With its extremely high cost, its too hard to create a good synergy.
It does need to have its cost reduced.
Post by: QuantumT on November 04, 2010, 05:21:16 am
You know, reverse time does just destroy it and reverse time is extremely popular. Instanrt death to so many creatures is catastrophic and too hard a counter. Would making it immune to reverse time make it overpowered though...I also meant to mention that. You require a decently large amount of water and grav, and a lot of fire to run it.
But now after trying out the deck again, I just found that my ealier success was a fluke of luck. With its extremely high cost, its too hard to create a good synergy.
It does need to have its cost reduced.
Post by: bohan1 on November 08, 2010, 02:38:14 am
Chimera i guess is good for if you have alot of Malignant Cells or Skeletons or anything that's 1|1. That way, if they Plague or Firestorm or Lightning storm you, you dont suffer great losses.
Or, if your about to win and you have all these great creatures out, you could play the Chimera for a little fun and see how much damage and defence you can get.
I one had a 108|156 Chimera.
Post by: Demut on November 08, 2010, 02:42:37 am
Post by: TheOnlyNewb on November 08, 2010, 11:53:39 pm
Post by: Uppercut on November 09, 2010, 12:10:14 am
Post by: QuantumT on November 09, 2010, 01:19:52 am
Post by: smuglapse on November 09, 2010, 01:25:48 am
The problem with it is that it's a win-more card. It's basically only ever usable if you're already winning the game.It can win you a game against a Hope, Wings, Phase Shield lock that you were losing.
I don't like absolutes. :)
Post by: Demut on November 09, 2010, 01:34:49 am
Quote
The problem with it is that it's a win-more card. It's basically only ever usable if you're already winning the game.I can think of dozens of possible uses if it was just cheapened.
Post by: QuantumT on November 09, 2010, 01:48:32 am
Post by: Demut on November 09, 2010, 01:54:19 am
Post by: Cgnu02 on November 09, 2010, 02:43:19 am
Post by: Uppercut on November 09, 2010, 05:12:01 am
The problem with it is that it's a win-more card. It's basically only ever usable if you're already winning the game.No. You play it when you're being cut off from winning to get the last push that allows you to win. Usually you were winning at some point, but not necessarily in a winning position due to shields.
Post by: QuantumT on November 09, 2010, 05:49:39 am
But what really shows the UPness of this card the best is just how few people use it. Sure you can contrive situations where it's useful, but they aren't all that common in actual play.
Post by: Uppercut on November 09, 2010, 08:20:05 am
Post by: Demut on November 09, 2010, 02:09:29 pm
Post by: Malduk on November 09, 2010, 02:26:35 pm
Its too expensive, its ability is awesome, but it costs 8 gravity making it next to worthless in duos and completely worthless in trios.I dont find cost to be a main drawback at all. Its not a card you want to spam multiple times. You do it once when you set up a board a bit. Then you maybe do it again later. Considering it gives benefits of card Momentum and card Gravity pull, with some extras attached, I dont find that expensive at all.
Its the fact that something like Rewind completely screws you over what makes it weakish. But thats true for practically any combo... Play couple of buffs on something, if it gets rewound, you're screwed for more cards and quanta than with Chimera.
Post by: TheCrazyMango on January 06, 2011, 10:42:38 pm
Ok yea i was playing a deck with chimera and sky blitz, and i used chimera, then blitzed, expecting to get an epicly high attack creature. I was really dissapointed and i lost the match.
and btw, i know its cheaper now, im just copying the image from its thread in gravity cards section
Post by: OldTrees on January 06, 2011, 10:43:20 pm
Post by: jippy99 on January 06, 2011, 10:44:05 pm
Post by: RootRanger on January 06, 2011, 10:46:57 pm
At least give some reasons for why it is not a useful card.
Post by: OldTrees on January 06, 2011, 10:47:33 pm
Post by: Daytripper on January 06, 2011, 11:09:04 pm
Post by: Le Coyote on January 06, 2011, 11:24:57 pm
Post by: GG on January 06, 2011, 11:41:16 pm
The card already has momentum. I am relatively new to the game and don´t have much experience in the balancing of cards, but don´t you think it would be overpowered to have both airborne and momentum capacity? Skyblitz on this creature, if having an airborne capacity, would make it too powerful. Skyblitz on most Dragons can at least be stopped with a gravity shield and those who don´t (e.g. Ruby Dragons) are very sensitive to creature control such as rain of fire or ligthning), which would not be the case with an airborne chimera. One thing could be to prevent skyblitz or other buffs combination on chimera in the same way as parallel universe.It's going to be absurdly hard to get high damage creatures, play chimera, AND also play sky blitz. Besides, that chimera without sky blitz could probably end the game anyway.
And also replying to the previous comment: foil chimera doesn't look airborne in the picture :P It's apparently standing on the ground.
Anyways, I'd like it to be airborne as well, not because of sky blitz, but just concept wise.
(And also in case the opponent has lobotomized my chimera and he has wings up? :D)
Post by: icecoldbro on January 06, 2011, 11:45:44 pm
Post by: willng3 on January 07, 2011, 12:04:28 am
Post by: TheCrazyMango on January 07, 2011, 12:06:35 am
Post by: Glitch on January 07, 2011, 12:09:30 am
Not. Airborne.
Post by: willng3 on January 07, 2011, 12:12:22 am
One thing just to note, i only said it should be because of the art yesterday in chat, i have re-thought my reasoning. I still think it should be airborne, but not just because of the art.Um, so then why do you think it should be airborne? That seemed like it was your entire reasoning in the original post.
Post by: TheCrazyMango on January 07, 2011, 12:16:01 am
To me, the mechanic seems to warrant an airborne creature. the concept to me seems that way. i dont have a solid, definate reason other than to me, it seems like a card that is airborne.One thing just to note, i only said it should be because of the art yesterday in chat, i have re-thought my reasoning. I still think it should be airborne, but not just because of the art.Um, so then why do you think it should be airborne? That seemed like it was your entire reasoning in the original post.
Post by: Ashebrethafe on January 08, 2011, 09:45:22 pm
If you look at the art, it is clearly balanced precariously on one tentacle.It's not really that clear.
Not. Airborne.
I was going to say that if that tentacle was touching the ground, it would be end-to-end with its shadow (as the humanoid figure in the art is), and instead the shadow is lower down. Then I noticed that the chimera's shadow falls behind it (from the camera's point of view), even though the sun is also behind the chimera. ??? (Or if that glow isn't the sun, the art still has the chimera's and humanoid's shadows falling in opposite directions.)
I haven't played with Chimera, so I can't say if it needs a buff, but I agree that the art isn't a reason to give it one -- especially in an online-only game like Elements, where the art can be changed instead. I'd also say that Vampire has the opposite problem: it's airborne but appears to be walking on four legs, two of which are visibly end-to-end with their shadows.
In fact, MtG has a card with this same issue. The art of Whippoorwill (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1781) shows a bird in flight, which often causes players to mistakenly believe it has flying when they see it in play. However, the card is old enough that it's only legal in eternal formats, which allow almost all of the more than 11,000 cards ever released. (The Dark was the only set that included the card, so there was no opportunity to change the art.)
Post by: smuglapse on January 14, 2011, 07:59:38 pm
Post by: Flash fire on January 19, 2011, 06:19:29 am
Post by: ztormtrooper on February 27, 2011, 09:23:56 pm
Post by: Calindu on May 17, 2011, 08:09:26 am
Post by: twixy10 on May 19, 2011, 12:13:22 am
LOL,the chimera has Momentum...so...so what? you can make a deck that gets the chimera over 50 attack, then use sky blitz while using non airborne creatures for the chimera. Example of a possible deck:
The overdrived creatures quickly become dangerous, while also providing stalling with grav pull. And then you use chimera + skyblitz to finish. The chimera will have a lot of health ;)
Not saying it would work, but it does show that making it airborne would have effect. No opinion here to the change.
Post by: MeetJSquared on May 19, 2011, 01:03:18 am
Post by: Calindu on May 19, 2011, 06:41:12 am
While I agree that making it airborne would have benefits, I just think that Chimera is not UP, so there is naturally no need for the 'buff'.No benefits,it has momentum--->Not affected by wings...BTW
Post by: OldTrees on May 19, 2011, 07:02:15 am
1 benefitWhile I agree that making it airborne would have benefits, I just think that Chimera is not UP, so there is naturally no need for the 'buff'.No benefits,it has momentum--->Not affected by wings...BTW
A chimera made of non airborne creatures currently cannot gain any benefit from Skyblitz.
PS: I do not think it deserves this benefit. Hence Chimera should not be made airborne.
Post by: Kuroaitou on May 19, 2011, 12:02:27 pm
vrt's Foil Chimera artwork expresses this idea perfectly; it's a mash-up of creatures that were forced together - it still hits through 'Wings' because it's so huge (Momentum), but that doesn't mean it should be able to rid the air currents to find the perfect attack angle from above/'flying' (Sky Blitz). It's too heavy to really receive that airborne passive.
Just my 2 :electrum. ^^;
Post by: Time_lord_victorius on May 19, 2011, 12:49:57 pm
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd78702/Screen_shot_2010_08_08_at_11.1.png)(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Upgrade.png)(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd79393/Screen_shot_2010_08_10_at_4.07.png)the combo goes: pop the dragons, skyblitz, CHIMERA!
Ok yea i was playing a deck with chimera and sky blitz, and i used chimera, then blitzed, expecting to get an epicly high attack creature. I was really dissapointed and i lost the match.
and btw, i know its cheaper now, im just copying the image from its thread in gravity cards section
on the other hand, i do agree that chimera should have airborne IF it has been created with 2 or 3 airborne critters.
Post by: Zergva on July 07, 2013, 12:52:20 am
Uhm... This card was gone. I wanted to see the topic of Buff Chimera, but I've found SN earlier and made my mind, so opening a new topic.
Really, what happened this card? I can't see this anywhere.
Why it's "devouring" everything? In my opinion it's only can absorb the creatures what I allow (for that high price, at least).
Post by: omegareaper7 on July 07, 2013, 01:44:45 am
Post by: OldTrees on July 07, 2013, 02:05:18 am
Why it's "devouring" everything? In my opinion it's only can absorb the creatures what I allow (for that high price, at least).Because it is a mass momentum effect with drawbacks to reduce the cost.
You will need to support your gut feeling that the cost + drawbacks are greater than the benefit.
PS: +0|+1 would not be used to prevent it from dying alone. It would cheapen the Sparks usage.
Post by: Zergva on July 07, 2013, 12:17:46 pm
1, Why does Chimera useless in mono? I rather draw an other monster to rush than 'do nothing' for 7|6, gravity uses momentum without it, anticombosive with Acceleration and Catapult (3 Armagio with Catapult deal 60+2+1 dmg, transformed to Chimera deal only 43) or Otyurg or Salvaging. Gravity has PC and good PC-s, so a shield can't be a matter.
2, Duo-s
:life -> Anticombosive with mitosis | Adrenaline | Emphatic bond | Green Nymph.
:earth -> Various of combinating possibilities, but SoF is better to hack up the shield than this and burrowing is safer.
:entropy -> Rather quanta deny, where it's not needed.
It's just not worth being in a duo.
3, Trio,rainbow
Exponentially not worth.
It's not worth to combinate with any ability creature.
->Unlike Shard golem, a Rewinding makes it 0|0 if it's played again (so actually it kills this card).
-> if the creature on the the first slot is Aflatoxined, the Chimera will die not depending on how much and how big it will be (except if 1 of them is burrowed or immaterial). And alfatoxin is still cheaper than.
-> I don't know if it's a bug, but if I draw Chimera with SoBr it's automatically plays it and takes an other in hand (even if I don't want to or the field is empty). Gravity pull kills it (the fun that the card automatically has a pull) against an other rush easily.
Post by: kaempfer13 on July 07, 2013, 12:59:51 pm
However the main reason why we dont see this card often is that it requires the whole deck to be build around it.
Post by: omegareaper7 on July 07, 2013, 03:13:53 pm
2: Its great in some duos, the ability to by pass shields in a duo such as life is invaluable.
3: It works great in rainbows. Have you not seen the OTKs running around? Most use it.
Post by: Zergva on July 07, 2013, 04:00:14 pm
Well I had meh results using parallel universe and flying titans (animate weapon upped obviously). However even if you quint a 24/150 chimera (6 card combo :o however I managed to pull that off a few times) -removing the counters reverse time and mutation- you can still die to sofree, poison, momentum and ordinary weapons. Also it can be useful in a deck that uses SoP and salvagers. But I agree that this card is only really useful in OTKs where defense and quanta cost barely matter. Buffing it in that respect might help it; targetting is not going to happen and also not very useful, since you want to get as much out of the momentum/gravity pull effect as possible.
However the main reason why we dont see this card often is that it requires the whole deck to be build around it.
Doesn't this deck is better without Chimera?
Aether mark
12 grav pillar, 6 grav pend, 6 Titan, 6 PU, 6 Animate weapon, 6 SoF, 6 Overdrive, 3 Catapult. Kay it's raw, and not perfect, but Overdriven Titan is sounds better. This Chimera can be frozen down/Rewind...
1: Chimera can be useful in mono gravity, it can act as a big shield late game which is very useful in certain mono gravity builds.
2: Its great in some duos, the ability to by pass shields in a duo such as life is invaluable.
3: It works great in rainbows. Have you not seen the OTKs running around? Most use it.
1, In gravity, everything can be a shield (Gravity pull) and I rather use on SoF+grav pull for an agressive PC+defense combo than sacrifice everything. If the damage is not more than 20 (where a SoF can work peacefully for more than enough turn). And please if you want to say, "a deck specially for that", not use certain. Yes, in 'certain' deck Skeleton can be a cruel card, but it doesn't changes the fact that is only good for a token. And there is a good reason why I can't see this card in the Arena.
2, Yes, that why Momentum used so much in duos, but it's not that topic. Chimera in duos... Say a match and after I say why it's not good with Chimera. Btw compare in duos with SoF. Negates shield? Yep. Yes, SoF is rare, but the half of it is enough to change it against the Chimera (destroying 1-2 shield and I'm not counting that is aviable for destroying everything else). And Chimera absorbs the abilities too and that's is a great disadvantage.
3, You're right, I've never seen Rainbow OTK deck with that card. Plz a decklist :D In my opinion rainbow is slow (except pillarless), but using the best cards to handle every situation or the best monsters from every element.
Post by: omegareaper7 on July 07, 2013, 04:44:59 pm
2: Same applies for momentum, why give one creature it when you can give all, AND get the bonus effect of a shield that could be life saving?
3: Instosis and firecell to name a few. Would name more, but search feature is, sadly, still very limited right now. (Only lets you search for 1 page worth of decks)
Post by: kaempfer13 on July 07, 2013, 05:19:51 pm
1: Gravity pull makes ONE creature a shield. Big shield > little shield, no?I absolutely agree with 1 and 3, however 2 has huge drawbacks.
2: Same applies for momentum, why give one creature it when you can give all, AND get the bonus effect of a shield that could be life saving?
3: Instosis and firecell to name a few. Would name more, but search feature is, sadly, still very limited right now. (Only lets you search for 1 page worth of decks)
- A chimera made out of creatures that are used mainly for attacking will not survive longer than 2 turns, removing all your dmg output
- It costs more
- Doesnt give bonus stats
- Lower drawing chances
What you describe is a rather slow break with SoFo and with no real defense; I was using sth like this:
Doesn't this deck is better without Chimera?
Aether mark
12 grav pillar, 6 grav pend, 6 Titan, 6 PU, 6 Animate weapon, 6 SoF, 6 Overdrive, 3 Catapult. Kay it's raw, and not perfect, but Overdriven Titan is sounds better. This Chimera can be frozen down/Rewind...
This easily produces chimeras that are twice as durable as you are and is not really designed for fast dmg, but for a slow but powerful defense. Adding Grav pillars and sofos probably improves that deck, but that is only because sofo is insanely op; my point is however that we are talking of completely different decks. Your deck tries to dish out unavoidable dmg as fast as possible (well actually it can be faster), while mine uses chimera mainly defensively (though once set up - which, unfortunately, takes longer than necessary- my deck deals almost unavoidable dmg as well)
But I am getting very offtopic right now. Anyway Chimera can be useful in a few decks, but I am not sure whether it is viable outside of otks, where it guarantees the instantkill.
Maybe giving it bonus hp for every creature involved could be a fair buff.
Post by: Zergva on July 07, 2013, 06:48:46 pm
1: Gravity pull makes ONE creature a shield. Big shield > little shield, no?
2: Same applies for momentum, why give one creature it when you can give all, AND get the bonus effect of a shield that could be life saving?
3: Instosis and firecell to name a few. Would name more, but search feature is, sadly, still very limited right now. (Only lets you search for 1 page worth of decks)
1, Infinite is the best, so SoF have won this argument :D (I said it's raising in every turn!) Chimera kill every of your creatures and if it dies, you can pack your deck away.
2, It's just not worth in duo. High cost, no + dmg (kay, if the opponent have shield and you don't have PC, but using a PC instead this is better), and you lose every ability from your monsters. Momentum gives + atk and it's not overused either (Momentum still don't needs your creatures to die). And avoiding shield is now has a slight overreputation (Psion, SoW). The defence is not really matters (Emphatic bond works better).
3, Buffering, but I think it's specially can be good (but only for) OTK.
Post by: omegareaper7 on July 07, 2013, 07:27:56 pm
2: So allowing all the dragons and other creatures the ability to pass through shields is bad? I still fail to see this point. If i had 6 dragons and a phase shield was up or something like a spider wings combo, then why would this be bad? Yes, its obviously a late game card, but that doesn't not make it a bad card. Bond doesn't provide momentum, and needs several creatures to be good. While on the otherhand, chimera can get by with a relatively less amount.
A point I have left out from before, chimera can also make room on the field for more creatures. Albeit, not handy most of the time, should not be forgotten.
Most importantly though, why would any of your proposed buffs really help it? Cheaper cost? Doesn't help any of the issues discussed so far. +0/1? Again, how does this help with its issues?
Post by: Submachine on September 23, 2013, 12:48:43 pm
IMO I don't think this card needs to be changed, but if I would, I would request a new option in the poll:
Remove gravity pull.
Post by: Robsta43 on September 23, 2013, 07:13:44 pm
Pros: Ignores shields and prevents a lot of damage.
Cons: Reduces your field to only 1 card that can be easily stopped. High Cost. Only useful once you have a lot of cards already on the field.
Suggested buff:
Grant chimera an additional passive that allows it to evade targeting (by being too massive/godlike to target) with a % chance of evading targeting = it's current health. Note -> this also makes it evade buff cards you play on it.
Alternately, just make it immortal.
Post by: UndeadSpider1990 on October 05, 2013, 07:59:29 am
Scarab swarms create a lot of HP for Chimera's defense aspect.
It has the additional advantage of instant effect. Chimera bypasses Dimensional Shield immediately, whereas Shard of Focus must survive a turn at 0|1.
Post by: montrossen on October 22, 2014, 05:42:21 am
Post by: Treldon on October 22, 2014, 07:41:22 am
What if it had acceleration/overdrive and momentum? That would keep in theme and give a major bounus.
Monentum it already has. But since it also has Gravity pull, Acceleration would not be useful, because it will probably die next (few) turns - unless you give it ridiculously huge HP. Chimera is for OTKs
Post by: serprex on October 22, 2014, 02:08:23 pm
Post by: montrossen on October 23, 2014, 05:56:59 am
Post by: Treldon on October 23, 2014, 07:53:33 am
sorry. I should clarify. I meant acceleration instead of gravity pull.
That would be really OP. A creature with (potentially) awful lot of ATK and no real way to remove it? Everyone and their dogs would be running Chimera decks
Right now you at least have a chance (provided the opponent miscalculates the kill) to kill it if you have big enough total damage output
Post by: serprex on October 23, 2014, 02:38:33 pm
Post by: andretimpa on October 23, 2014, 06:10:38 pm
Post by: bossitron on November 01, 2014, 07:38:53 am
Post by: dawn to dusk on November 01, 2014, 07:44:36 am
why of all cards is this the one that gets foil art?cos vrt love <3