Post by: Captain Scibra on January 26, 2013, 03:29:55 am
(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Upgrade.png)
Just a passing discussion in chat, but how several speculations about Armagio make it really clunky. First is the 1 ATK, when it is quite useless when the card is mostly for HP-based strategies anyways. Second, we can change the cost of the ability, such that it does not interfere with the card's many other non-GP synergies, but at the same time making it cost just as much to do it as it would now (excluding the change in attack). This would still rate second to Voodoo in cost for HP, but Gravity being the best at making use of the HP, can take the hit of it being more expensive as a mono synergy. Any thoughts?
Post by: Pineapple on January 26, 2013, 03:36:19 am
Post by: CuCN on January 26, 2013, 03:43:14 am
For unupgraded armagio, that is -1 atk, -2 cost, +1 ability cost.
For upgraded, that is -2 atk, -2 cost.
Post by: Absol on January 26, 2013, 07:00:16 am
Post by: Focuscoene on February 25, 2013, 09:28:51 pm
Post by: dragtom on March 02, 2013, 01:28:11 pm
I do feel like armagio is a little costy for the effect, though.
But this is over-buffed.
Post by: choongmyoung on March 02, 2013, 02:07:16 pm
Why is Armagio so costly compare to Heal? It's because
- You can attack with Catapult or Overdrive.
- BB = 2|1 :earth for 20 heal.
The second one is quite important. However, if you use BB on it, it completely losses its attack.
Same with catapult. When you fling it, it losses its attack.
So Armagio's attack is useless unless you Overdrive it.
I minimally suggest that -1 cost -1 atk for Elite Armagio.
Post by: AvusXIV on March 22, 2013, 06:12:49 am
The way I'd change it: Leave the whole card as it is but lower it's unupped and upped costs by 1 :gravity. Done.
Post by: jazzfan27 on March 22, 2013, 07:38:13 am
I guess SoP can do the trick.
I've not used the card a lot myself, but, it does seem fairly balanced to me. I would think it compares well to Heal most of the time if you net out the life.
Post by: whatifidogetcaught? on March 22, 2013, 12:49:09 pm
Post by: OldTrees on March 22, 2013, 06:48:43 pm
I think it is suboptimal design to have a card that needs to use its activated ability or else provide no benefit at all.
Thus I think that it would be suboptimal to have a 0 attack armagio. However I do see the argument that the attack is less valuable than normal.
Post by: Hyroen on March 22, 2013, 08:02:28 pm
Armagio by itself is clearly a defensive tool in Gravity's arsenal but when used Catapult, another Gravity card, it is one of the element's best offenses. That said, we must also consider that Gravity as an element does not have cheap cards. Decreasing the cost could better balance it, however it might not be the most suitable fix for a Gravity card.
I think increasing the HP of Armagio by 5 and increasing the ATK of Elite Armagio to 3 might make for a more suitable fix. Armagio becomes more of a defensive and offensive threat while Elite Armagio becomes an attacker worth its price, and with adren, one which will make you think twice before sacrificing it.
Post by: Captain Scibra on March 23, 2013, 04:41:43 pm
I think it is bad design to have a card that needs additional cards to be viable.
I think it is suboptimal design to have a card that needs to use its activated ability or else provide no benefit at all.
Thus I think that it would be suboptimal to have a 0 attack armagio. However I do see the argument that the attack is less valuable than normal.
The statements can apply to other cards, and they tend to be very effective. Dune Scorpion and Steam Machine are, respectively, prime examples.
I think part of the issue about Armagio is that it invests a significant amount of resources for a defensive purpose too easily circumvented. Considering that Armagio must first be played for 5 :gravity, wait one turn and then use a further 1 :gravity in order to use its skill for a limited, proactive 25maxHP increase, one could argue that despite the card advantage and the fact that Armagio is proactive, the use of 2 Heals has more benefits due to the fact that it counters all reductions of HP, not just physical creature sources.
Armagio by itself is clearly a defensive tool in Gravity's arsenal but when used Catapult, another Gravity card, it is one of the element's best offenses. That said, we must also consider that Gravity as an element does not have cheap cards. Decreasing the cost could better balance it, however it might not be the most suitable fix for a Gravity card.
I think increasing the HP of Armagio by 5 and increasing the ATK of Elite Armagio to 3 might make for a more suitable fix. Armagio becomes more of a defensive and offensive threat while Elite Armagio becomes an attacker worth its price, and with adren, one which will make you think twice before sacrificing it.
I think it needs to be more defensive than it currently is. Otherwise, the Dragon feels forever alone.
Post by: Helston on March 24, 2013, 06:21:43 am
I think part of the issue about Armagio is that it invests a significant amount of resources for a defensive purpose too easily circumvented. Considering that Armagio must first be played for 5 :gravity, wait one turn and then use a further 1 :gravity in order to use its skill for a limited, proactive 25maxHP increase, one could argue that despite the card advantage and the fact that Armagio is proactive, the use of 2 Heals has more benefits due to the fact that it counters all reductions of HP, not just physical creature sources.
Armagio by itself is clearly a defensive tool in Gravity's arsenal but when used Catapult, another Gravity card, it is one of the element's best offenses. That said, we must also consider that Gravity as an element does not have cheap cards. Decreasing the cost could better balance it, however it might not be the most suitable fix for a Gravity card.
I think increasing the HP of Armagio by 5 and increasing the ATK of Elite Armagio to 3 might make for a more suitable fix. Armagio becomes more of a defensive and offensive threat while Elite Armagio becomes an attacker worth its price, and with adren, one which will make you think twice before sacrificing it.
Just a small note: Gravity has creatures of all costs - cheap (Salvager, Fire Eater, Merc), mid-range (Armagio, Otyugh, Charger) and expensive (Dragon, Chimera). The common link is that they're generally ineffective attackers for their cost, most of which have a high HP to compensate.
Post by: montrossen on January 08, 2015, 07:03:53 am
There are 4 main reasons why I think armagio is unbalanced and underpowered:
1- its very overpriced
2- it does not block weapons
3- if you have a shield, it is not protected by it (unlike Heal, which gives health that is protected by shields)
4- it can be bypassed with poison, momentum and spell damage (again, unlike heal)
I am not saying that the latter 3 should be changed, as this would make it almost exactly like heal. What I am saying is that because of these disadvantages, it should be stronger.
Edit: removed the first sentance because of what Ginyu told me.
Post by: dawn to dusk on January 08, 2015, 07:07:24 am
1. cata synergy
2. health can be buffed, making BB a lower cost heal.
these are outshined by other cards/strats however (VD, catatitans, SoFo GP)
Also, include card image, and a poll. as most others have done
Post by: montrossen on January 08, 2015, 07:38:20 am
Post by: Dm on January 08, 2015, 11:09:47 am
3- if you have a shield, it is not protected by it (unlike Heal, which gives health that is protected by shields)
4- it can be bypassed with poison, momentum and spell damage (again, unlike heal)
I am not saying that the latter 3 should be changed, as this would make it almost exactly like heal.
I'm sorry, what are you talking about?
Post by: Sera on January 08, 2015, 01:29:57 pm
I think Armagio's pull cost should be removed. Or maybe it should even enter with gravity pull like Chimera. That would remove its synergy with Acceleration though.
Post by: Ginyu on January 08, 2015, 02:18:14 pm
First: I know captain scriba already made a topic for armagio, but that was for the outdated version. This is the updated version.
Just for correctness: There has never been another version of Armagio. The picture in Captain Scibra's thread was his version of how it shoud be, not an actual one.
As a :gravity lover, I tried a lot with Armagios trying to reach their full potential. The best thing I could build was - after the introduction of Catapult - a Mito-Armagio-deck with some Heals and later also with Overdrives. It could tank a lot, but had serious problems against rushes and poison. Other decks I tried to make competitive failed mostly by the high cost of these guys.
All in all, I think a cost reduction of 1 helps the most (and should be enough in my opinion). You might also drop it's skill cost, but please don't make it auto-pulling, because of - what has already been said - his lost synergies.
Post by: potatoman6134 on February 10, 2015, 10:33:38 pm
Post by: andretimpa on February 11, 2015, 12:08:18 am
Post by: Chapuz on February 11, 2015, 02:18:29 am
4 :gravity dilgos would indeed make me happier. (*coff* oetg *coff*)It also blocks weapons ;)
Post by: AD TienzuStorm on February 16, 2015, 12:17:56 am
Post by: foxrain4 on February 28, 2015, 01:45:04 pm
armagio
4 gravity quantum cost
atk 1
hp 30
gravity pull 0 gravity quantum cost