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Offline Drake_XIV

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Re: Abomination https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14550.msg489878#msg489878
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2012, 04:17:54 am »
You have Mutation for quick killing.  Also, it'd enable more synergy rather than Supernova being the only :entropy card being used or something.

Offline Arum

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Re: Abomination https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14550.msg489879#msg489879
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2012, 04:37:16 am »
Would this work?
NAME:
Abomination
ELEMENT:
Entropy
COST:
5 :entropy
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
N | N
TEXT:
This creature's ATK and HP is a random number from 4 to 6
Unnatural: When this creature dies, generate Malignant Cell.
NAME:
Micro Abomination
ELEMENT:
Entropy
COST:
2 :entropy
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
N | N
TEXT:
This creature's ATK and HP is a random number from 1 to 4
Unnatural: When this creature dies, generate Malignant Cell.

Combines both mutation and aflatoxin ideas.
Pretty neat and I'd use it myself.
O M A M
M o n s t e r s
A n d
M e n

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Abomination https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14550.msg489885#msg489885
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2012, 04:53:31 am »
Why not a simple -1 casting cost? Keep it simple.
isn't it better to expand the meta with interesting ideas rather than simply up or down costs?
Versatility / expanding the meta is valued because it increases the target audience and increases the duration that players will get enjoyment from the game. However having a few vanilla cards allows the audience to include players that prefer the uber simplicity or novelty of vanilla decks.

Why not a simple -1 casting cost? Keep it simple.
:entropy it's about chaos and randomness, so why simple? 
why so serious?   :)
See above for the value of vanilla.
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Offline Alchemist

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Re: Abomination https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14550.msg489900#msg489900
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2012, 05:41:27 am »
Reply to Arum
(quote kinda 2 big to insert)

Few possibilites: N|N implies atk=hp. What if those values get separated, but we keep the range. So you may get 4|6. Other posibilities: make the range wider for non-upped, cause I'd rather pay 5 for 5, and not buff the card, than to pay 5 and gamble for 4-6. If I have to gamble, I'd gamble for 4-7. On the other hand, range on upped version is perfect. He'd be even better target for fractal, but 50% worse target for butterfly effect.
BUT - giving him both - randomness in Atk|hp and passive that you called Unnatural is like giving him 2 passive skills. I think it's too much to give him both.

Reply to OldTrees

I am aware of vanilla value, and  :entropy is one of the FEW elements that has it (vanilla), and definitely the one of the LAST elements that needs it. If  :entropy is synonym for randomness, why it's "vanilla" card can't serve to the randomness? And suggested abomination doesn't differ much from the usual one, it's still mid-hitter, same stats, and if you don't touch it, it stays the way it was.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Abomination https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14550.msg489906#msg489906
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2012, 05:53:48 am »
Reply to OldTrees

I am aware of vanilla value, and  :entropy is one of the FEW elements that has it (vanilla), and definitely the one of the LAST elements that needs it. If  :entropy is synonym for randomnessentropy, why it's "vanilla" card can't serve to the randomnessentropy? And suggested abomination doesn't differ much from the usual one, it's still mid-hitter, same stats, and if you don't touch it, it stays the way it was.
I still count semivanilla cards. (cards that are balanced as if the ability did not exist because the ability is small enough)

If the suggested ability were a semivanilla ability then it would buff the card sufficiently. If the ability buffed the card sufficiently then it would make it not a vanilla / semivanilla card. I think balancing the vanilla card and then adding a semivanilla ability would maximize the value the card adds to the game.

PS: Nova is entropic but not random. :entropy is synonymous with entropy (the scientific term).
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Offline Alchemist

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Re: Abomination https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14550.msg489921#msg489921
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2012, 06:19:13 am »
Reply to OldTrees

I am aware of vanilla value, and  :entropy is one of the FEW elements that has it (vanilla), and definitely the one of the LAST elements that needs it. If  :entropy is synonym for randomnessentropy, why it's "vanilla" card can't serve to the randomnessentropy? And suggested abomination doesn't differ much from the usual one, it's still mid-hitter, same stats, and if you don't touch it, it stays the way it was.
I still count semivanilla cards. (cards that are balanced as if the ability did not exist because the ability is small enough)

If the suggested ability were a semivanilla ability then it would buff the card sufficiently. If the ability buffed the card sufficiently then it would make it not a vanilla / semivanilla card. I think balancing the vanilla card and then adding a semivanilla ability would maximize the value the card adds to the game.

PS: Nova is entropic but not random. :entropy is synonymous with entropy (the scientific term).

Correcting me on a semantic level was kinda low and vanilla of you, cause when I said synonym, I did not refer to word's "Entropy" literal meaning, but the character of  :entropy element in game - and you knew that. And in the case you want vanilla's semivanilla skill, I've read good post above posted by Arum. He suggested different passive, which respects certain Entropy laws (not in scientific terms, but the in game terms), and with some fine-tunning, it would give that magic semivanilla touch to balanced vanilla card.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Abomination https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14550.msg489924#msg489924
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2012, 06:29:53 am »
PS: Nova is entropic but not random. :entropy is synonymous with entropy (the scientific term).

Correcting me on a semantic level was kinda low and vanilla of you, cause when I said synonym, I did not refer to word's "Entropy" literal meaning, but the character of  :entropy element in game - and you knew that.
I knew that and was responding to that. Zanz has commented in chat to the effect that the Element Entropy is related to entropy (the scientific concept). A subset of entropy is information entropy (aka randomness) however Entropy and entropy are both significantly broader than randomness. When the other forms of entropy are larger they outweight the information entropy. This is why cell membranes are entropically favored despite being very predictable. Nova was my in game example of this.

PS: You convinced me that either of Arum's abilities would be good additions to Abomination. I still think that the cost could drop by 1.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 06:35:31 am by OldTrees »
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Offline Alchemist

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Re: Abomination https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14550.msg489952#msg489952
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2012, 08:32:14 am »
Arum came with N|N concept, while idea for second skill was sharpened by Drake_XIV.

About vanilla: there should be unique card that fits all vanilla decks, payed by "6 quantum of your mark", non-rare card, skill: none.

About 1 cost reduction: that is simple, unoriginal, but actually might be good in practice. It IS a buff - by definition. I guess that upped version wont get same buff =OP2. So instead of any synergies, it will do mono rushes as it did so far - more or less successful. Up side - antimatter is expensive, dragons as well, dissipation shield consumes quanta, so players would save 1 quantum per played Abomination. So I can't deny that -1 buff idea is good in unupped enviroment.
Down-side: Will he do anything besides mono-rush? Ok, I agree - immolation- card for (almost only) one game style, and you see abomination like one gamestyle card too. But fire rush got Shard of Bravery now, and entropy rush wont benefit that much as fire IMMO because of -1 cost of abomination. So changes in game are happening on meta/mechanics levels, and we act like "simple" changes will make a big difference. And both of us know that right now new RULE-BENDING cards are being crafted while we are thinking and talking within a box. Are creative rule-bender ideas even allowed to us "mortals"?
Pretty soon, 70% of all the cards we own will become obsolete and useless. Balance to me means that you can take any card there is in this game and make a good deck around it. Not a deck that contains it as a dead card, but a good, effective deck that can win FG, or an opponent. And we know that FG killers, PVP decks always have cards from very small subset of set of all cards, and that most of the other cards only slow you down. As I said before, this buff would mean much in prepatch period. I'm not saying that game would be muuuuuch better with this card buffed, I'm saying what Naesala said before. Expand the meta - since meta of the game already got expanded, and cards like Abomination got contracted. Buffing many cards in new game enviroment simply must include more serious changes than +1/-1.  -1 cost buff means waaay much more for Pharaon or Anubis, while Abomination might need something else. And he is not the only card with that issue.
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Offline Picheleiro

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Re: Abomination https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14550.msg489960#msg489960
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2012, 09:01:29 am »
Abomination is technically a mutation, but with a "down syndrome".

Abomination: The retarded one of Elements.

Offline Captain Scibra

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Re: Abomination https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14550.msg490017#msg490017
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2012, 11:51:33 am »
Abomination is technically a mutation, but with a "down syndrome".

Abomination: The retarded one of Elements.

Lol.

Perhaps expand upon my idea:  Abomination gains random stats (let's go with as suggested, 4-6), and gains a random skill, sort of a 1-card mutation.  Though, this would need possibly a raise in the casting cost, depending on if the cost would always be :entropy or :entropy :entropy, since the skill always costs the same as the element of its host, and this could be very potential in Mono-Entropy, and even more so with PU or RT duos.

EDIT:  To say, I personally dislike the availability of infinite mutation hosts in Mono-Entropy (with Life mark, for the Elves/Druids, and QP/(S)Nova for the mutations), though I feel mutations have lost value due to the card advantage problem that they impose.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 12:06:39 pm by Malebolgia »
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Offline Calindu

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Re: Abomination https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14550.msg490028#msg490028
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2012, 12:15:17 pm »
Lmao, the only deck that I used and had both Abomination (not micro) and druid was a adrenaline rush, it's kinda pointless to have Aflatoxin on a Abomination.
The only idea I actually like is the random stats one.
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Re: Abomination https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14550.msg490034#msg490034
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2012, 12:41:23 pm »
I hope everyone remember the effect of Mutation:
Quote
Mutate the target creature into an Abomination, unless it dies... Or turn into something weird.
Abomination chance: 50%
Mutant chance: 40%
Die chance: 10%

If you decide to make an Abomination into an innate mutant (thus giving it random skill), then chance to get skill = 90%.
Among them are Devour, Paradox, Growth, Steal, Destroy, Endow, and many useful skills, and costs :entropy. Which makes it mono.

OP or not? Decide yourself.
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