Forum Brawl #3 - Suggestions and Feedback

[ARTHANASIOS]

We know all of that. Post suggestions, don't restate problems.

Have patience. I have a lot of things to write and to analyze.

On a sidenote, I believe both you and Chapuz have done a tremendous job at running and improving this event. I do not try to find drawbacks in order to reduce the value of Forum Brawl (this is probably the best competition idea ever created!); I just believe there is always room for improvement. Always!

EDIT: finished my previous post, you may wish to review it and comment about it

[theelkspeaks]

 e]: Forcing teams to vote for another team in addition to their own team doesn't solve statement "a" and "b". Quite the contrary, it encourages biases, unsophisticated votes towards random foreign submissions just in order to allow themselves to vote for their team's submissions.
I truly feel a bit sad for individuals that would employ such tactics as always wasting the 2nd vote just to be able to cast a vote on their own team's submission.  The only ways I could think of to 'resolve' this equates to "legislating morality" which simply does not work.
 
to be continued shortly...

Some comments above in yellow (line breaks added by me for ease of reading responses).

It is possible for a player to believe that only her/his team did a satistfactory job on an individual task, just as we've had a handful of non-brawlers who only chose one team in their votes for a particular task.  I agree that it would be sad for a player to repeatedly waste the second vote on purpose, but I can see room for it happening on occasion.

[Naesala]

{2} Role clarification:
 a]: Make sure all the Artists know what kind of artistic skills are needed. As far as I know, drawing skills of any short as well as photography and video recording are the minium skills of an artist. If more kinds of art is needed at a certain Brawl (e.g. music composition) it should be stated clearly. This category includes many visual mediums, so photography, film and drawings are permissible or can be required besides digital art.
 b]: Make sure a Writer task doesn't include a theme that fits thematically more to another role (especially off-topicker) except if it is a combo task of these 2 roles. Furthermore, force Writer to use plain text of a fixed size, color etc. in order to make it easier to compare the pure writing talent of each individual (of course, this rule can have its exceptions if a unique & interesting task comes in mind).
 c]: Make sure an Off-Topicker's task don't include a topic best suited for a Writer (poetry, literary arts etc.) or Artist (music, visual arts etc.) and ask them to provide links/source to support their thesis (e.g. related Wikipedia articles) in order to give a more off-topicker feeling to their tasks and less a writer one.
 d]: A Forum Expert probably needs its "Expert" part removed from its name, since a Writer can be an "Expert Writer" etc. Personally, I would prefer an original name highlightning both the forum proficiency and versatility of this role, something like "Jack-of-Forum-Trades" or something like that.
 e]: Make sure a Forum Expert task don't invade Off-Topicker's area, make sure a more sophisticated writing format is demanded (to seperate FE from Writers) and more tasks related with Wiki/Tools/Tutorials are included. Demand from them some basic formatting knowledge and maybe even a basic programming knowledge of a simple widespread internetic language (e.g. javascript).

{3} Award Icons & Other Suggestions:
 a]: Since many people lose interest after the 1st three rounds of Brawl (usually after realising the difference between their team and the leading one can't be closed), rewarding teams other than the 1st with award icons according to their possition could really help. What about a golden, silver and bronze award icon for 1st, 1nd and 3rd place respectively? Or even a special award icon for every single participant no matter his/her team's position. That could really help attracting more brawlers and brawling teams too! (of course, the standard "Draw FBrawl#X award icon!" task should include drawing every single version of the icon)
 b]: Eliminating the voting completely; just posting our submissions each round and discussing about them in public. Of course, since there will be no voting, there would be no 'winner' (though anyone participating at FBrawl is a winner imo) and some people may lose interest because of this. Still, that would be the FBrawl of my dreams...
 c]: Make a standard, special last round Bonus Task related with "How can we further improve FBrawl?", much like the one at FBrawl#1. That would greatly keep suggestions & feedback coming and will add an extra motivating reason for creative thinking. Since I believe there's always room for improvement, I think this B.Task will never become old.

That's all... for now...

2.
A.Artistry is very clear: it is any and all types of art not including writing, which should be obvious seeing as there is a writer role.
B.We already define each round for writers so they know what they can and can't do. Writers write about elements in several different styles. That should be clear.
C.Offtopicker can be forced to do anything from the offtopic section. That is all. There is no better definition because they can be forced into any of it. That said, in general they won't do art/literature/poetry as those tasks will better serve the Artist and Writer roles.
D.Referring to the Forum expert as the "Forum" (by how you wrote it) or "Forumer" makes little sense as everyone on the forums is a forumer. While the other roles imply being experts, Forum Expert needs that as part of it's name to denote the difference. I see little reason to rename any role
E. No, just no. We will decide what roles are appropriate for each role. By the tasks that have been assigned for this and past Brawls there should be an idea what each should do. A forum expert does not need to be a programmer, to have "better" writing style, and to necessarily be much different from offtopicker if we don't want.

I completely disagree with pretty much everything you've posited in point 2. The roles are all defined as much as possible for the variation that can occur with their tasks. And roles are up to us, and how we like to make them.

3. It's still going to be voting. It will almost certainly always be voting. Because everyones opinion matters.

Solutions:
1.
A) you already said voting was a bad plan so it seems silly to suggest a voting plan. I am against taking away a persons right to vote for themselves: I think the bias is less than the inability to honestly appreciate a teammates work.
B) I've thought long and hard about a ranking system in voting. It would for one make totaling the votes a massive amount more effort for us. It'd also make voting take a lot longer for people as well, and so people might not want to vote, or just say "5 points to DDD and I don't care about the rest". It's more effort than benefit for the same net effect.
C) Secret sections were the most requested thing in brawl 2, so no. Strategic voting hasn't happened (or to the same extent) this brawl because chapuz and I can see everything posted in the secret sections to tell if people are being bad. It also prevents people from voting based on what others have voted.

2.
Nothing is wrong with how any roles are defined, so none of this are needed.

3.
I do not know any other event on the forums that awards lesser places. There are other means of satisfaction besides the icon (having fun with the event, winning individual rounds, winning bonus tasks). Also, interest shouldn't fall off as you can gain enough points with wagers and challenges to go from last to first.

I will not repeat a task from a previous Brawl intentionally. We have a suggestion an feedback thread right here for suggestions and feedback.


I appreciate your enthusiasm ARTH and I know that you are probably the most enthusiastic about Brawl besides me, but most of these aren't problems and these suggestions are not something I can agree with.

[OldTrees]

I am reminded of a story.

Back in the medieval age, a Monk was wrongly imprisoned in the local lord's dungeon. The monk had only the clothes on his back, a spoon and a bowl for his meals. The monk spent all his free time carving an escape tunnel. After 5 years a very rough tunnel was completed. however crawling through it would severely scratch and cut the monk, so the monk kept carving. After 10 more years the tunnel was still rough but it was not perfect, so the monk when back to carving. When the monk died, the guards discovered a perfectly smooth tunnel complete with side tunnels for drainage.

We need to be careful that we do not get caught up in the pursuit of asymptotically reducing bias. Eventually the voting system is good enough that further focus on perceived bias will only decrease the total enjoyment of the event.

Honestly, Brawl 2 had a good enough voting system (if we ignore the results being visible before they were finalized which caused vote sniping). Brawl 3 has a strictly superior voting system and is good enough. Suggestions for improvement are beneficial only if they do not create event destroying levels of distress.

To be clear: I am not saying anyone is/is not at this point. However I thought it was useful to mention it sooner than later.

[ARTHANASIOS]

Spoiler for Hidden:

I am reminded of a story.

Back in the medieval age, a Monk was wrongly imprisoned in the local lord's dungeon. The monk had only the clothes on his back, a spoon and a bowl for his meals. The monk spent all his free time carving an escape tunnel. After 5 years a very rough tunnel was completed. however crawling through it would severely scratch and cut the monk, so the monk kept carving. After 10 more years the tunnel was still rough but it was not perfect, so the monk when back to carving. When the monk died, the guards discovered a perfectly smooth tunnel complete with side tunnels for drainage.

We need to be careful that we do not get caught up in the pursuit of asymptotically reducing bias. Eventually the voting system is good enough that further focus on perceived bias will only decrease the total enjoyment of the event.

Honestly, Brawl 2 had a good enough voting system (if we ignore the results being visible before they were finalized which caused vote sniping). Brawl 3 has a strictly superior voting system and is good enough. Suggestions for improvement are beneficial only if they do not create event destroying levels of distress.

To be clear: I am not saying anyone is/is not at this point. However I thought it was useful to mention it sooner than later.

The monk left a great achievement in this world, something people can use and he will be remembered for that. His efforts weren't wasted. An invention may never be used by its inventor but the next generation does use it.

To Nae (about role clarifications):

 Clearly defining the roles is in order not to have any dissapointed/misleaded Brawl participants. When someone applies for a role, he/she must be FULLY aware of the kind of tasks he/she is going to be challenged with. 8)

 What about specialist artists? I think it must become clear to the forum members that drawing, photography and video recording are the core art types used. What if, let's say, put a "Music Composer" task at the next rounds? Sure, encountering new, interesting and unpredictable tasks can be amazing, but how many of our Artists (or other Brawl team members) know how to compose music or have the luxury to learn right away how to do it? Being an artist doesn't mean you can produce artistic pieces by any known ways of art.

To Nae (about award icons):
 Forum Brawl is NOT juts another forum competition, but a massive event much like War, Trials and Leagues.
* Look at War; winning team does not just wins a cute 32x32 award icon, but also a "reigned by..." appears to the forum's top, plus other awards icons like "most-bidded player" or "most competitive player" (or whatever) also exist. Moreover, the Master of the winning team is crowned "Grandmaster".
* Look at Trials; a Master does not just win a 16x16 elemental award icon, but his/her account include the respective "Master of X" title.
* Look at Leagues; there is NOT just a 1st (gold) place, but a 2nd (silver) and a 3rd (bronze), all with their respective award icons and electrum codes.
 I personaly suggested a League-type award icons because it would also enhance the FBrawl's "Create the winner's Brawl icon" Bonus Task even more interesting (because creating 3 award icons instead of just 1 would be more fun).

 Of course, I don't force anyone by any means to apply these changes. They're just suggestions.

[OldTrees]

Spoiler for Hidden:

I am reminded of a story.

Back in the medieval age, a Monk was wrongly imprisoned in the local lord's dungeon. The monk had only the clothes on his back, a spoon and a bowl for his meals. The monk spent all his free time carving an escape tunnel. After 5 years a very rough tunnel was completed. however crawling through it would severely scratch and cut the monk, so the monk kept carving. After 10 more years the tunnel was still rough but it was not perfect, so the monk when back to carving. When the monk died, the guards discovered a perfectly smooth tunnel complete with side tunnels for drainage.

We need to be careful that we do not get caught up in the pursuit of asymptotically reducing bias. Eventually the voting system is good enough that further focus on perceived bias will only decrease the total enjoyment of the event.

Honestly, Brawl 2 had a good enough voting system (if we ignore the results being visible before they were finalized which caused vote sniping). Brawl 3 has a strictly superior voting system and is good enough. Suggestions for improvement are beneficial only if they do not create event destroying levels of distress.

To be clear: I am not saying anyone is/is not at this point. However I thought it was useful to mention it sooner than later.

The monk left a great achievement in this world, something people can use and he will be remembered for that. His efforts weren't wasted. An invention may never be used by its inventor but the next generation does use it.

 
Just 

[Naesala]

To Nae (about role clarifications):

 Clearly defining the roles is in order not to have any dissapointed/misleaded Brawl participants. When someone applies for a role, he/she must be FULLY aware of the kind of tasks he/she is going to be challenged with. 8)

 What about specialist artists? I think it must become clear to the forum members that drawing, photography and video recording are the core art types used. What if, let's say, put a "Music Composer" task at the next rounds? Sure, encountering new, interesting and unpredictable tasks can be amazing, but how many of our Artists (or other Brawl team members) know how to compose music or have the luxury to learn right away how to do it? Being an artist doesn't mean you can produce artistic pieces by any known ways of art.

To Nae (about award icons):
 Forum Brawl is NOT juts another forum competition, but a massive event much like War, Trials and Leagues.
* Look at War; winning team does not just wins a cute 32x32 award icon, but also a "reigned by..." appears to the forum's top, plus other awards icons like "most-bidded player" or "most competitive player" (or whatever) also exist. Moreover, the Master of the winning team is crowned "Grandmaster".
* Look at Trials; a Master does not just win a 16x16 elemental award icon, but his/her account include the respective "Master of X" title.
* Look at Leagues; there is NOT just a 1st (gold) place, but a 2nd (silver) and a 3rd (bronze), all with their respective award icons and electrum codes.
 I personaly suggested a League-type award icons because it would also enhance the FBrawl's "Create the winner's Brawl icon" Bonus Task even more interesting (because creating 3 award icons instead of just 1 would be more fun).

 Of course, I don't force anyone by any means to apply these changes. They're just suggestions.

You didn't listen to me. The roles are -already clearly defined-. If someone wanted to do music, they would read what artist entails and say "Oh, that's not for me, they obviously mean a visual medium as that is what they talked about in the role". If they did not they could ask. Were you disappointed about what an FE is? I have received zero complaints about roles being poorly defined except from you.

Don't speak about Brawl like I don't value it or I don't know what it is. That's incredibly rude to me; I've been Brawlmaster for every Brawl and put tons of effort and consideration into it. When you emphasize words as you did in the first line of your second point, it implies you think I don't know or care about that factor, when I do, and that offends me.

I have asked for a banner before (similar to reigned by...) and was told no by the admins. Since it's a team effort, I couldn't give (or rather, ask the admins to give) a title to the winners like trials. Leagues does have varying level of rewards, including reward codes, but I cannot give out codes and a Gold-Silver-Bronze works much better for a trophy than for an Icon. I was unaware of other War icons for such things, as I have never seen them on players profiles. Maybe that's just because they're buried, or because a lot of the big PvPers don't post anywhere outside PvP subforums.

Thank you for your suggestions but I see absolutely no need to redefine roles and the only additional reward I'm willing to consider for Brawl is an additional reward for the winners, in the form of a banner along the war banner, and that idea has been given a "No"

[ARTHANASIOS]

Don't speak about Brawl like I don't value it or I don't know what it is. That's incredibly rude to me; I've been Brawlmaster for every Brawl and put tons of effort and consideration into it. When you emphasize words as you did in the first line of your second point, it implies you think I don't know or care about that factor, when I do, and that offends me.

 Hey, there's no way I am rude towards you, dear Nae. I have mentioned countless times in the past of how much I admire you and Chapuz and all of your effort you put this event and I can't thank you enough for coming with FBrawl as an idea.
 Honestly, I could +rep all day and night and it still would be enough!
If you think roles do not need a greater clarification, so be it. But let me say something, there were indeed some "complaints" about some tasks by some people (they juts haven't reached your ears). Personally, I always come up with a way to solve my task, no matter its difficulty, and I personally have not any reason to complain about anything.
 Anyway, I am not going to bring up this subject anymore, since I personally have no complain/problem with any of my tasks.
Peace.

[Tom Bombadil]

Please remember to post voting deadlines when you open the voting threads.

[Naesala]

Please remember to post voting deadlines when you open the voting threads.

We will try but it will always be 24 hours before the round deadline.

[Naesala]

If you think roles do not need a greater clarification, so be it. But let me say something, there were indeed some "complaints" about some tasks by some people (they juts haven't reached your ears). Personally, I always come up with a way to solve my task, no matter its difficulty, and I personally have not any reason to complain about anything.
 

I am aware there have been complaints about the tasks. I have spoken with quite a few people. I have not heard any of these complaints having to do anything with what people's roles are.

[andretimpa]

I suggest the Brawlmasters check with someone reliable if their tasks are feasible, before Brawl starts.

Seriously, last round's CD task was only doable sacrificing quality over quantity and this round's Artist task is not only insanelly complicated, but I think there's at most a handful of people in this community that would be able to judge the submissions as they deserve.