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Offline andretimpa

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Re: Brawl #2 Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47921.msg1080260#msg1080260
« Reply #108 on: June 15, 2013, 03:03:33 pm »
What about a public voting in the voting thread, saying the roles and teams they vote for in a comment? voting for their own team not allowed.

My problem with that is that it might influence people voting (just see the discussions in rounds 1 and 2 for example) and might end up in wanton drama. We already had enough unnecessary arguments among participants without public voting being enforced. I think that the best way to avoid uninformed voting is just allowing votes for your role if you are a Brawler. It only assumes that you know what you are doing in your Brawl team. This could go well with combo tasks if the voting was separated for each of the roles, as some people already suggested.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Brawl #2 Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47921.msg1080269#msg1080269
« Reply #109 on: June 15, 2013, 03:41:07 pm »
*text*
How do you solve this problem?
Well, I admit that I cannot solve that problem. I don't think any system proposed can.
Brawl 2's system does not have this problem.

Brawl 2's system asks each brawler to make 1 vote for their team per task and then vote per task that they feel they can make an informed vote on.
All the loyalty votes cancel out and all you have left is the votes made by people who feel informed enough to vote.
In fact, unbiased spectators get twice as much voting power as brawl participants.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 03:45:46 pm by OldTrees »
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Offline Naesala

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Re: Brawl #2 Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47921.msg1080275#msg1080275
« Reply #110 on: June 15, 2013, 03:55:38 pm »
*text*
How do you solve this problem?
Well, I admit that I cannot solve that problem. I don't think any system proposed can.
Brawl 2's system does not have this problem.

Brawl 2's system asks each brawler to make 1 vote for their team per task and then vote per task that they feel they can make an informed vote on.
All the loyalty votes cancel out and all you have left is the votes made by people who feel informed enough to vote.
In fact, unbiased spectators get twice as much voting power as brawl participants.
The only problems with the current system is 1) People not using both their botes and 2) People changing votes/using their votes specifically based on the teams not the submissions.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Brawl #2 Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47921.msg1080324#msg1080324
« Reply #111 on: June 15, 2013, 06:26:54 pm »
*text*
How do you solve this problem?
Well, I admit that I cannot solve that problem. I don't think any system proposed can.
Brawl 2's system does not have this problem.

Brawl 2's system asks each brawler to make 1 vote for their team per task and then vote per task that they feel they can make an informed vote on.
All the loyalty votes cancel out and all you have left is the votes made by people who feel informed enough to vote.
In fact, unbiased spectators get twice as much voting power as brawl participants.
The only problems with the current system is 1) People not using both their botes and 2) People changing votes/using their votes specifically based on the teams not the submissions.
1) Since the loyalty votes cancel out, what specifically is the problem?* Not every brawler will feel they know enough to vote on every task every round.
2) The vote totals should not be revealed until they are set in stone. This is an unrelated issue.

*If half the brawlers only did loyalty votes, then it is effectively (after loyalty votes cancel) as if only the other half of brawlers voted.

Sidenote: If you could remove the vote tax/loyalty vote with only minor consequences you should. However Brawl 1 seemed like evidence that this is difficult.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
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Offline andretimpa

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Re: Brawl #2 Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47921.msg1080338#msg1080338
« Reply #112 on: June 15, 2013, 08:15:31 pm »
*text*
How do you solve this problem?
Well, I admit that I cannot solve that problem. I don't think any system proposed can.
Brawl 2's system does not have this problem.

Brawl 2's system asks each brawler to make 1 vote for their team per task and then vote per task that they feel they can make an informed vote on.
All the loyalty votes cancel out and all you have left is the votes made by people who feel informed enough to vote.
In fact, unbiased spectators get twice as much voting power as brawl participants.
The only problems with the current system is 1) People not using both their botes and 2) People changing votes/using their votes specifically based on the teams not the submissions.
1) Since the loyalty votes cancel out, what specifically is the problem?* Not every brawler will feel they know enough to vote on every task every round.
2) The vote totals should not be revealed until they are set in stone. This is an unrelated issue.

*If half the brawlers only did loyalty votes, then it is effectively (after loyalty votes cancel) as if only the other half of brawlers voted.

Sidenote: If you could remove the vote tax/loyalty vote with only minor consequences you should. However Brawl 1 seemed like evidence that this is difficult.

The problem with (1) is people deliberately not using the second vote even when they know enough to vote. About (2), Nae is talking about this

I dislike how all the last minute changes in votes seem to be based entirely on teams and not on quality of submissions (From yesterday to today a certain team's numbers have dropped and another's risen with no other changes). And how all throughout the event people weren't using both their votes. I'm very disappointed in voting behavior this Brawl. I expected people to be more concerned about having fun and truly rewarding hard work than just voting to win.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Brawl #2 Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47921.msg1080346#msg1080346
« Reply #113 on: June 15, 2013, 08:49:14 pm »
*text*
How do you solve this problem?
Well, I admit that I cannot solve that problem. I don't think any system proposed can.
Brawl 2's system does not have this problem.

Brawl 2's system asks each brawler to make 1 vote for their team per task and then vote per task that they feel they can make an informed vote on.
All the loyalty votes cancel out and all you have left is the votes made by people who feel informed enough to vote.
In fact, unbiased spectators get twice as much voting power as brawl participants.
The only problems with the current system is 1) People not using both their botes and 2) People changing votes/using their votes specifically based on the teams not the submissions.
1) Since the loyalty votes cancel out, what specifically is the problem?* Not every brawler will feel they know enough to vote on every task every round.
2) The vote totals should not be revealed until they are set in stone. This is an unrelated issue.

*If half the brawlers only did loyalty votes, then it is effectively (after loyalty votes cancel) as if only the other half of brawlers voted.

Sidenote: If you could remove the vote tax/loyalty vote with only minor consequences you should. However Brawl 1 seemed like evidence that this is difficult.

The problem with (1) is people deliberately not using the second vote even when they know enough to vote. About (2), Nae is talking about this

I dislike how all the last minute changes in votes seem to be based entirely on teams and not on quality of submissions (From yesterday to today a certain team's numbers have dropped and another's risen with no other changes). And how all throughout the event people weren't using both their votes. I'm very disappointed in voting behavior this Brawl. I expected people to be more concerned about having fun and truly rewarding hard work than just voting to win.
1) That is hard to observe without telepathy. In general I assume voters are honest. Especially when the voters in question are my peers. Even more so when the nature of the event is such that many should not feel they know enough to vote on all the tasks.
2) Either I do not understand what is being referred to OR it sounds like "voters should not see the current vote totals until after the vote totals are set in stone".
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 08:52:59 pm by OldTrees »
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Offline Onizuka

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Re: Brawl #2 Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47921.msg1080352#msg1080352
« Reply #114 on: June 15, 2013, 09:35:35 pm »
-Opinion of a guy who will never participate in brawl and who would particularly not mind if it didn't appear again


I liked the voting system except that (as far as I know) voting for two people meant giving both of them the same advantage over the other (max 4) entries. I at most voted for 1 in a category (with many categories me not voting for anything) since I do not feel that 2nd place is equally deserving of the same amount of points as first.


If there were double the polls but allowed for 1 set of them to be worth 2x the points or whatever I feel this would be better.
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Offline Laxadarap

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Re: Brawl #2 Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47921.msg1080458#msg1080458
« Reply #115 on: June 16, 2013, 03:22:10 am »
I think the entire point of the 2 vote system is so that you vote for your own team and one other team (hence you won't have to make a decision on whether or not you should vote on your team if another team is better.  The extra vote is just as OT puts it "a Vote Tax".  If one voting poll was worth 2x points, I'm sure it would be mostly used to vote for your own team.
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Offline CuCN

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Re: Brawl #2 Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47921.msg1080492#msg1080492
« Reply #116 on: June 16, 2013, 05:19:57 am »
If there were two separate polls, there would be nothing preventing someone from voting the same team in both of them for even more bias power.

Offline shadow303

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Re: Brawl #2 Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47921.msg1080581#msg1080581
« Reply #117 on: June 16, 2013, 01:54:58 pm »
Hi everybody,

now that Brawl is over I wanted to give some feedback on my task experience and also the votings in the six rounds.

My tasks & the votings

Spoiler for Hidden:
This is of course a subjective view on the tasks I had to do:

In round one (wolf image) I got some important and useful hints on perspective from vrt, which really gave me some impulses where to improve. I didn't feel that I deserved getting the least votings, but I knew that I could have done better.
The task itself was classic, but still a quite interesting combination of chosing the right card and drawing the card image.

In round two (photo Dejavu) I was happy of getting positive feedback and points from the expert, even though I don't think to be a big photographer - but it was a fun task to do and it went quite well.
I personally was positively suprised to see also a photographing-task in Brawl. If there is one point to mention here: not everyone has a good camera, this may affect the results, but probably shouldn't.

In round three (dwarf image) I really tried as hard as I could. After for sure over 30 hours of work on it I found it went really good and was glad to get a positive feedback (and also some useful hints on lights usage) from vrt. I must add, I was really disappointed of not getting expert points for it, but oh well.. I guess that's Brawl :)
At least we got some points from the community and since we had to do quickly most of the other parts of the combo task, I guess that some positive feedback for the art from the elements community - thanks to all voters for that.
(Voting -> see suggestions regarding combo-tasks)

In round four (mainmenu redesign) I first thought that the feedback was quite subjective, I felt like it's up to the community to decide what is gimmicky and what is not, but after some thinking I must admit I really got lost a bit in the technical aspects of this task rather then the artistical ones. Maybe tasks like this, with no standarized submission, could need a bit more task-explaining.

In round five (forum redesign) I installed SMF and a couple of mods (forum-test) but did not complete the design, so Annele helped me out. Anyway the task brought some interesting knowledge on what SMF can do.. we should really think about what other mods could improve the official elements forum - there are so many, some very useful that the community would certainly like!

In round six (traditional drawing) I had fun again to draw in a way I didn't do since school :-) It was quite challenging and working with a non-digital media is a whole different thing from which you can deduce completely new aspects of drawing. Also I'm surprised of winning this round.. so the 10 euro colors I bought were not for nothing lol - thanks again to all voters ^^

My team

Spoiler for Hidden:
As a team we worked good together, but I must say from the start we struggled with inactivity. After round 1 a member already left elements and round 2 another one left the team too.. and we only got 1 sub in round 5 which was really late. Some other were also busy with finals or work (as I was in round 5), so it doesn't really surprise me that we didn't make so many points, since unfortunately often tasks were completed quite quickly in the last hours.

I personally also think the different timezones (Boss in +12, some Europeans like me in +2, Americans in -4 to -7) made it a bit difficult to coordinate due to completely different online times. Maybe that's something that future Bosses should consider when building a team.

But Annele did a really good job as our Boss, it was anyway fun to collaborate :)

My suggestions

Spoiler for Hidden:
- What I really would change in Brawl is that there should always be a number of base points (1-2 points or so) for doing a task. It is in my opinion really bad to get zero points for having put effort in something, which you would also get with doing absolutely nothing. So: not doing a task = zero points, doing it = base points for doing it + community + expert, that's what I would suggest. (As far as I understood the points are already incremental per round, so maybe this needs just some minor fix for the first rounds)

- I think the expert judging should be done after the voting of the community, as it was already suggested. The expert already has his points to give, in my opinion it isn't necessary to also influence the community. There were no copy+paste jobs in this whole Brawl, I don't think that's an argument. Also, it should be same moment in all rounds, during this Brawl in some specific rounds (e.g. round 3) it was later than in most others (immediatly at begin of voting).

- I didn't understand why there wasn't a voting for Bonus #1 while there was for the other Bonus tasks. That's not really transparent (at least I personally noticed that only after the decision); I would let the community vote for all tasks.

- I would definitely always split the voting if it is a combo task; in my opinion it makes it very difficult to vote otherwise (e.g. part A of combo 1 is better than part B of combo 2 and viceversa - what do you vote?); also there should be clear rules when the submission of an incomplete combo task (with only some parts done) is allowed and when it will not be accepted (I've read about one such discussion)

- There should be a rule aswell when a voting has to be resetted due to incomplete or wrong voting information; it happened 1-2 times during this Brawl that submissions where incomplete or something was wrong with the voting (which can happen, no problem here!), but I noticed that in some cases the voting was resetted when fixed, in other situations it wasn't; may sound a bit picky, but it would be better to always reset, when that happens (or never, if that would be even possible)

- Time is in my opinion a very critical factor in the artist tasks. I don't know how fast the other artists were, but as a person who works 40-45 hours a week and has a RL too I really had to use every free minute I could find to produce decent art in a week. Without disrespect (!), I personally think you can design a decent deck in couple of hours, also write a nice text or invent a cool card in that time, but you can't leave an image incomplete after some hours, it needs lot more time, especially if you aren't a professional artist that does that every day. I think the Brawlmasters did already a very good job here to alternate artist jobs that were very and less time consuming (e.g. round 2 photo between 1 and 3 drawing) but still I think, maybe there could be an improvement here (maybe longer rounds for artists? I don't really know.) (Btw: also 2 out of 3 Bonus tasks were artist tasks..)

- I would really like to see a standarized way to communicate within the team (maybe a hidden forum or something like that). We used a Titanpad and I found that thing very confusing, especially if you have lot of text of different persons and rounds. I think its rather easy to miss something that way.

- This whole discussion about voting.. in my opinion everyone has the right to vote how he thinks it is best. Someone maybe more focused on helping the own team, others maybe for there best friends in the community, others in a very objective way or someone even based on reasons we can't know.
If you don't want people to vote in a certain way (e.g. for the own team) change the voting system (there were some good ideas on that already), but I don't see why to complain after the competition that everyone voted the way he/she preferred.

- ..last but not least: Brawl really needs more publicity. In many tasks the number of votes were equal (or even less :-\ ..) to/than the members of the teams, so there is something wrong I think. Maybe always notify the voting with the news, also set it as topic or something in the chat or even more esagerated: message to everyone xD

Finally..

thanks to the Brawlmasters Naesala and Chapuz for organizing this really cool event :-)
thanks to vrt for all the artist feedback, it's cool to have some professional feedback on how and where to improve :-)
thanks to our Boss Annele for completing so many tasks and reading all my (spam? ^^) messages :-)
thanks to my team comrades for the fun and good collaboration :-)
thanks to all the artists here for so many wonderful artworks :-)
thanks to everyone for participating to Brawl and making this a fun competition for all of us :-)

..and grats to team Fire for winning Brawl #2 ^^


bye
shadow303

Offline Drake_XIV

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Re: Brawl #2 Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47921.msg1080628#msg1080628
« Reply #118 on: June 16, 2013, 05:21:39 pm »
What about, in the sections that do not have a readily available expert panel, that the given participants in a poll collectively order and discuss their submissions amongst themselves?

Offline Pella

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Re: Brawl #2 Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47921.msg1080632#msg1080632
« Reply #119 on: June 16, 2013, 05:29:46 pm »
What about, in the sections that do not have a readily available expert panel, that the given participants in a poll collectively order and discuss their submissions amongst themselves?
Interesting idea!  Every time I voted, I always went to the Writer section first.  I wanted to see what my direct competitors produced.  I always judged these submissions with a much more critical eye than I judged the other tasks.
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