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Offline ARTHANASIOS

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Re: Brawl #1 - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43147.msg1002040#msg1002040
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2012, 08:53:38 am »
Spoiler for Hidden:
The task was to design but not create a tool. I voted based on that criteria. A particular tool being actually created should not and did not influence whether I would vote for it or the code generator. However, you let the appearence of the submission to influence your vote. Except if Forum Expert is an Artist submission and aesthetics matter... Furthermore, my program, if you run it, has greater aesthetics than AWA submission, so even in aesthetics my sub has a plus, which you haven't taken it at your account for some reason...Please be careful with your accusations. I did not let aesthetics influence my vote. Recognition of a problem does not necessitate being part of the problem. (Did you mistakenly think I voted for AWA?) I did not run your program because benefiting from its utility might have biased my voting. For those influenced by aesthetics, usually the aesthetics on the cover have a greater impact than those inside.

The Automated War Auction tool was more aesthetically pleasing. This should not but did influence voting. This shows that people like me and Calindu are right of voting unfairness. This actually is a plus of my opinion and not of yours (see above). Have you read my opinion? I do think aesthetics played an unfair role. However I am for removing all potential biases rather than merely the ones that favored Nyan Sharks.

I do think the Automated War Auction would have provided more benefit to more players than the Catapult Damage Calc (war players vs gravity players that don't have the wiki chart at hand). That said I have seen many more people struggle with coding tables, links and other forum post options. False, people participating in War are just a small part of people who hang around in forums, while players who play Catapult-based decks are both in the community and beyond it. Furthermore, the calculations made with CDC are much better than wiki's chart, since you can buff you creature, poison it, freeze it etc. and calculate its cost thereafter. Finally, Catapult's damage isn't an easy thing to calculate by yourself without using a program (all these things I've just mentioned are within the description, not the tool). So, seriously, CDC >>> AWA. You consider the small fraction of the Gravity players that play catapult decks is larger than the small fraction of players than try to enter War. I think it is reversed especially when you consider the organizers would implement the AWA while the Catapult tool would only be used by a fraction of Catapult players. This causes me to disagree with your conclusion. (Using 3 ">" implies to me that you are still not sufficiently compensating for either the authorship bias or the frustration you have towards Nyan Sharks.)
I have read your posts carefully, Oldtrees. "The Automated War Auction tool was more aesthetically pleasing. This should not but did influence voting.", this was your saying. Voting for AWA or not, it doesn't really matter. What really matters is that the aesthetic pleasure of sub A is taken into account while the aesthetic pleasure of sub B is not. However, the most annoying fact is that aesthetics are taken into account even more than the actual submission itself. And yes, I believe that '>' I have put, but it is not bias against Nyan Sharks or something. I am pissed of because of the voters, not because of Nyan Sharks. Nyan Sharks are a great team and it deserves a lot of 1st positions, but not as many as it has indeed taken, and I also know how many 1st (or 2nd, or 3rd) places deserve the rest of the teams too. I know where I have actually surpassed the other teams and where I was utterly defeated, not matter what the voting shows. Because of the above, I consider the voters 'immature', 'unfair' and 'biased', and they indeed are even more biased than me. Finally, even a non-gravity player will play with a catapult deck once in a while and he/she is going to need the tool, but how many ETG players are ever going to participlate in wars? ETG players are overall far more than those who actually visit the community frequently.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 08:55:46 am by ARTHANASIOS »
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Brawl #1 - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43147.msg1002121#msg1002121
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2012, 05:14:38 pm »
Spoiler for the accusation I was refuting:
The Automated War Auction tool was more aesthetically pleasing. This should not but did influence voting.
That said I have seen many more people struggle with coding tables, links and other forum post options.
However, you let the appearence of the submission to influence your vote.
Please be careful with your accusations. I did not let aesthetics influence my vote. Recognition of a problem does not necessitate being part of the problem.
Spoiler for >:
> means greater than
>> means much greater than
>>> means hit an extra ">"
While I may disagree about whether the votes were unfair (people voting with unequal knowledge), they were biased towards irrelevant details (like the mechanics of the cards in the element swap art task). Your position is to remove art from non art tasks. My position is to remove all irrelevant details.
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Offline vrt

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Re: Brawl #1 - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43147.msg1002165#msg1002165
« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2012, 08:25:26 pm »
So teams working as a team to improve every entry is giving that team an unfair advantage.


Why the hell would we even have teams then?
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Brawl #1 - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43147.msg1002173#msg1002173
« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2012, 08:45:07 pm »
So teams working as a team to improve every entry is giving that team an unfair advantage.

Why the hell would we even have teams then?
Cooperation is not the problem. The problem in my opinion is the format of the submissions allows submissions with distracting irrelevant details that bias voting.
So I think it would be a good idea for the card designer on a team to accept suggestions about card design (or the Artist about Aesthetics). However I do think that the formatting used in Brawl 1 biased votes toward irrelevant details. The card changes in the element swapping art task did affect voting.

However cooperation also does have a problem in that it makes it harder for teammates to vote impartially. If anyone has a better solution to this side effect than the 2 vote system, please share.
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Offline Annele

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Re: Brawl #1 - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43147.msg1002181#msg1002181
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2012, 09:01:34 pm »
Is it possible to create a secret board that only certain members cannot get to?

For example, if I had the power to create a board, or a sub-board, could I make it so 3 certain people can't get to it?
Yes. Think of the War Team boards

Why not do this for Brawl? Make it so the voting things cannot be accessed by the participants?
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Offline vrt

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Re: Brawl #1 - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43147.msg1002185#msg1002185
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2012, 09:12:20 pm »
Better yet, make the entries public - no more anonymity. Currently, all that seems to do is shut everybody up during the voting phase.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Brawl #1 - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43147.msg1002187#msg1002187
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2012, 09:32:03 pm »
Better yet, make the entries public - no more anonymity. Currently, all that seems to do is shut everybody up during the voting phase.
Pro: People can utilize the knowledge of other players.
Con: A popular but bad artist might get more votes than an unpopular but skilled artist. (Not a problem for popular and skilled artists)
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Offline jumpingbeans

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Re: Brawl #1 - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43147.msg1002189#msg1002189
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2012, 09:35:54 pm »
Or we could just remove voting altogether and have anyone who's not participating apply for being a judge and give 1-2 points for each judge's vote (the Council Members would still be voting). Votes would be sent in via PMs.

Offline Naesala

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Re: Brawl #1 - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43147.msg1002233#msg1002233
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2012, 12:26:06 am »
Or we could just remove voting altogether and have anyone who's not participating apply for being a judge and give 1-2 points for each judge's vote (the Council Members would still be voting). Votes would be sent in via PMs.

We decided that a community vote and an "expert" vote was the best way to go, I would need a convincing arguement to sway me away from this choice. Also, we aren't going to block the participants from voting because those are the ones who are most interested in the event and most willing to really look at entries.
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Re: Brawl #1 - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43147.msg1002248#msg1002248
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2012, 01:43:40 am »
Also, we aren't going to block the participants from voting because those are the ones who are most interested in the event and most willing to really look at entries.
It also allows subjective bias. A lot of people are out to win for their team, not vote for the best idea.

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Re: Brawl #1 - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43147.msg1002256#msg1002256
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2012, 02:03:14 am »
What OldTress said about unnecessary additions. Submissions all need to be formatted the same in order to reduce people voting without looking at the whole thing.

Also, I still support my system of three voting groups: An individual team vote (cannot vote for your own), a community vote, and a broader expert panel. This would heavily limit bias and make voting more interesting.
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Offline Naesala

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Re: Brawl #1 - Suggestions & Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43147.msg1002265#msg1002265
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2012, 03:13:53 am »
What OldTress said about unnecessary additions. Submissions all need to be formatted the same in order to reduce people voting without looking at the whole thing.

Also, I still support my system of three voting groups: An individual team vote (cannot vote for your own), a community vote, and a broader expert panel. This would heavily limit bias and make voting more interesting.
If you could, message me about the mechanics of this because formatting is the hardest part of everything for me.
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