Post by: SnoWeb on January 24, 2011, 02:00:26 pm
As I have been posting some of my screenshot in chat, several people asked me what deck I was using. As the main idea is not new and that I made this deck with the contribution of several other players, I thought I needed to add some interest to this post. That's why I made the following guide.
Why chose a neurotoxin deck to grind FGs?
The RoL-hope deck are known to be fast money makers (but are as boring as German politics). The rainbows (such as CCYB and friends) are the most efficient but are slow and weak against some gods. Some decks are really fun to play (Nymphomanias, Voodoos, Mindgates) but suffer lower win rates. I'll put neurotoxin decks in the latest category (the fun decks). However, the following Eternal Chaos can have a win rate almost as high as the rainbows. But to reach it, you'll need some practice ...
Why use Entropy and not Gravity or Light?
To play neurotoxin, you have three main strategies: eSco (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11715.msg154119#msg154119) (by Zse and using :entropy), DSK-FG (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11131.0.html) (by bucky1andonly and using :gravity) and Eternal Crusade (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19681.msg266954#msg266954) (using :light).
The main idea is to hit your opponent once and then to stay alive until he dies. Surely it's easier to hit with momentum but the best defence available (and the more versatile) is clearly in entropy. Antimatter gives you healing and CC as well as a nice way to bypass problematic shield and to trick the AI. BE gives you PC (a must against some FG). And finally, Pandemonium gives you mass CC (a life saver quite often).
Now the deck:
False God Guide: Normalised win rate: 59,8% (to be updated soon).
- Priority Order for PC: Eternity, Hourglass, Shield and SoG.
- You can improve your EM rate using antimatter on big creature having a later position (6 or 7).
- Scorpions with -3 or less attack are almost never targeted.
- If you have already hit with neurotoxin, you might use a chaos seed to increase the effect of antimatter.
Chaos Lord: Win 46% | EM 6%
Easy as long as your shield is up and eternity comes early. Try to use rewind in order to deny him some elements (rewind the gargoyle 3 times and you wont see it again). Antimatters won't do much if the druids are up and running since it'll just re-mutate. N.B. : Antimatter-ed scorpions are not targeted by the druids. First EMscreenshot by dukeborric here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20173.msg276677#msg276677)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/chaos_10.jpg)
Dark Matter: Win 76% | EM 15%
Rewind the nymphs. Antimatter the chargers and/or the momentum-ed big creatures. If two nymphs are upped and running, then pandemonium. (the 2 screenshots show EMs)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/dark_m12.jpg)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/dark_m13.jpg)
Decay: Win 52% | EM 1%
Play the shield and shards only if you have 1-2 Hourglass. Play the buffed scorpion ASAP. When the first fractal is played, keep your pillars and discard BE, antimatter and Eternity. Play your pillars only when you want to play a shield or a shard. (Second screenshot shows an EM)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/decay_10.jpg)
(http://i74.servimg.com/u/f74/15/54/21/77/decay_10.jpg)
Destiny: Win 81% | EM 11%
Wait for a super buffed creature to antimatter if possible. Try to use rewind in order to deny him some elements (rewind a nymph twice and you wont see it again). Play un-buffed scorpions that she will rewind. This way you can use your own eternity to rewind her annoying ones. (Screenshot shows an EM).
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/destin11.jpg)
Divine Glory: Win 3% | EM not yet
Almost Impossible. I finally beat him once on the 35th battle. It was a tough fight with 3 miracles. I was just lucky that his first fire pillars appeared very late. This way I could put my defence up without to much problem.
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/divine10.jpg)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/divine11.jpg)
Dream Catcher: Win 55% | EM 8%
You must have an eternity before he can BE one of his creatures.
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/dream_10.jpg)
Elidnis: Win 84% | EM 13%
You might want to antimatter a too strong scorpion in order to avoid having it twined. Put your shield up fast, eternity as well. Keep the antimatter-ed scorpion for BE to destroy the bonds. (Screenshot shows an EM)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/elidni10.jpg)
(http://i74.servimg.com/u/f74/15/54/21/77/elidni10.jpg)
Eternal Phoenix: Win 46% (26/61) | EM 1% (1/61)
Easy so long as your shield hold. A neurotoxin before the first fractal and he is done. Use Pandemonium if the scorpion is late. Save antimatters for dragons.
(http://i74.servimg.com/u/f74/15/54/21/77/eterna10.jpg)
Ferox: Win 88% (64/73) | EM 19% (14/73)
The perfect god to practice the basic strategy. Try to save antimatters for dragons unless it gets an early rush of lots of 5 attack creatures and you don't have any eternity or shield. (Screenshot shows an EM)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/ferox_11.jpg)
Fire Queen: Win 81% | EM 11%
The key to the success here is to prevent her to produce fire. If you succeed, she is dead. (Screenshot shows an EM)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/fire_q11.jpg)
Gemini: Win 76% | EM 17%
Rewind the unstoppable creatures. Try to antimatter a creature in position 5+. Not a big deal if your defence does not come to late. You might want to antimatter, BE or rewind a too strong scorpion in order to avoid having it twined. (Screenshot shows an EM)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/gemini11.jpg)
Graviton: Win 69% | EM 24%
Here un-upped scorpions are better. Use antimatter on the fire-masters only if you really can not rewind them. Try to antimatter a charger. Try to keep your shield un-destroyed (remember the PC priorities). If the gravity shield is up before the neurotoxin hits and he does not have much damage up, you might want to let him use gravity pull on you. The scorpion if not killed can hit next turn. (Screenshot shows an EM)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/gravit12.jpg)
Hermes: Win 33% | EM 4%
Use antimatter on the Lava only if you really can not rewind them. Sometimes using your BE on an antimatter-ed lava is your only option (It might be still lead you to a win). Try to antimatter a Dragon. Try to keep your shield un-destroyed (remember the PC priorities) without sacrificing you Eternities too early in the game. (Second screenshot shows an EM)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/hermes10.jpg)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/hermes12.jpg)
Incarnate: Win 46% | EM 4%
Be extremely careful in using Pandemonium here. The best thing you can do here is antimatter a 6|4 vampire and then destroy eclipse. If the bone wall is up before the neurotoxin hits keep your scorpion combo for when you can play an antimatter on it at the same time. (Screenshot shows an EM)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/incarn11.jpg)
Miracle: Win 78% | EM 3%
Save antimatter for buffed dragons/pegasi. Destroy light towers to prevent miracle. EM is quite difficult to do because of morning glory. (Screenshot shows an EM by rewinding pegasus)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/miracl11.jpg)
Morte: Win 58% | EM 4%
Save antimatters for dragons. Use pandemonium wisely. Try to destroy the RoL without producing a too many skeletons. Rewind the archangel can also help you to control the light quanta pool. It's always nice to have a BE before his Arsenic. Poison renders EMs quite tricky. (Screenshot shows an EM)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/morte_10.jpg)
Neptune: Win 97% | EM 51%
No help needed here. I lost only once because I forgot to rewind my scorpion. (Screenshot shows an EM on an empty field)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/neptun11.jpg)
Obliterator: Win 49% | EM 13% (a bit a too high number due to the normalisation)
Rewind the unstoppable creatures. Antimatter a basalt dragon if possible and try to destroy the pulveriser before it is protected. (Screenshot shows an EM)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/oblite11.jpg)
Octane: Win 27% | EM 2%
Protect your shards by remembering the PC priorities. Without shards you'll have problem to survive too many UG. Rewind what you can. Use antimatter or pandemonium on the rest. You might be lucky and have a BE early enough that you can erase all OE. (Second Screenshot shows an EM)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/octane10.jpg)
(http://i74.servimg.com/u/f74/15/54/21/77/octane10.jpg)
Osiris: Win 91% | EM 17%
First Shield, then Eternity. Rewind the unstoppable creatures. Keep in mind that he might throw the antimatter or poisoned creatures in your head. Use pandemonium rather later than sooner. (Screenshot shows an EM)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/osiris10.jpg)
Paradox: Win 87% | EM 9%
Antimatter a big déjà-vu (before it splits if possible). You might want to antimatter, BE or rewind a too strong scorpion in order to avoid having it twined.
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/parado10.jpg)
Rainbow: Win 13% | EM 7% (in fact 2 win with one EM on 15 battles)
The FG I battled the less since I started (lucky me). Keep in mind the priority order for PC. Try to keep your shield up the whole game. Play eternity wisely. Use Antimatter and pandemonium when you can't rewind.
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/rainbo11.jpg)
Scorpio: Win 40% | EM 5%
Here your shield will save your life. Antimatter the arctic dragons. Rewind the puffers when not trapped in time. Use pandemonium to prevent overdose of poison. And keep a scorpion combo ready in case of a late purify.
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/scorpi11.jpg)
Seism: Win 55%| EM 5%
Play your pillars | pendulums one at the time except if it allows you to play your shield or your eternity. Silurian dragons are the target of choice for antimatter. Slowly but surely you'll kick is ugly ass. (Second screenshot is EM)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/seism_11.jpg)
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/seism_12.jpg)
Pikachufan2164's advices to fight the new gods (1.27)
Akebono: Simple like Dark Matter, but even easier and without the Black Holes and Gravity Nymphs. Early Eternity and Turtle Shield are more important than an early Scorp. Rewind his expensive creatures (especially ones with Overdrive and/or Momentum) to lock his draws.
Lionheart: Not too bad, for the most part. Early Scorp > early Eternity, most likely. Turtle Shield is infinitely useful in holding off their creature army and preventing ability use. Rewind priority is Anubis > Pharaoh > Crusader = Flying Eternity (though the presence of Quintessence will make it difficult to Rewind his creatures).
Hecate: A little more difficult due to the 4 Steals (remember the PC priority list), but you'll still find it quite easy. Eternity is highly useful, as is Turtle Shield. Rewind the Dolls, and eventually she'll run out of Rage Elixirs and have low enough damage output. If you like, you may as well Antimatter a Raged, vampire Doll so that it does damage for you.
Serket: Difficult. It's a poison race, and you need to win with an early Scorp. Pandemonium is a key card here -- it helps remove opposing creatures (since almost all of them have low HP) and breaks through Cloak. Antimatter the Recluses, Rewind the opposing Scorpions, and have a BE Scorp handy for destroying their Eclipses and deactivating their Deathstalkers. Cloak could be a problem, as you rely on targeting, but Pandemonium luckily breaks through it.
Jezebel: Very difficult. 8 Steals and 6 Cloaks means that you likely won't be able to Rewind her Nymphs (or do much at all, for the matter) if you don't set up properly. Use the PC priorities to protect your Shield and Shards, as they are essential for your survival. If you suspect she has Steals early on, feel free to hold on to your permanents and let her steal your Towers and Pends. Hourglasses and Eternity are also good Steal bait once you get your defenses up. Pandemonium breaks through Cloak, but it looks like you won't be able to do much after the uncloaking anyway. Early Scorp is probably better in this situation.
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd151767/Dune_Jezebel.jpg)
Screenshot for the new gods by twixy10:
it isn't an EM (one hp short), but since you don't have the normal win screens for the new gods I thought i should post it.
Akebono
(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/twixy10/akebonowin.png)
Lionheart: another one almost EM. 2 attack short:
(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/twixy10/Lionheartwin.png)
here is an EM for the competition ;)
against Serket:
(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/twixy10/SekertEMwin.png)
Don't hesitate to post your tips and screen-shots (EM in particular).
For the competition: missing EMscreenshot : Divine Glory, Dream Catcher, Eternal Phoenix, Paradox, Rainbow, Scorpio and all the new gods.
Good Luck and Have Fun ...
Post by: Malignant on January 24, 2011, 02:21:50 pm
Post by: rowcla on January 24, 2011, 02:29:10 pm
Post by: scottish on January 24, 2011, 03:17:14 pm
I think you need at least one animated weapon fo creature control and you creatures rotate when you run out from this deck. Anyway my favorite deck type.
Post by: QuantumT on January 24, 2011, 03:31:27 pm
Good work!
Post by: SnoWeb on January 24, 2011, 03:39:32 pm
It seems to be Esco: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11715I said that it was not really new. I already cited eSco and I put Zse as one of the authors of this deck.
I think you need at least one animated weapon fo creature control and you creatures rotate when you run out from this deck. Anyway my favorite deck type.Following a suggestion of vagman13 (who is also in the authors of this deck) I replaced the animate weapon by a second shield. It makes a lot of sense. Generally you can maintain the second eternity only when the game is almost won. However, having the shield earlier is extremely important for most of the FGs (see breakdown).
It is also my favourite type of deck. Neurotoxin forever (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17360.msg235856#msg235856) ...
Post by: astraldragoon on January 24, 2011, 04:37:01 pm
first in english to say that the post is awesome, its nice to see people working on eachothers work.
congrats to the authors this deck is really good.
Maitenant vu que t'es francais jvais me faire plaisir ahaha
franchement un deck enorme avec :entropy et :time ( qui reste mon favori )
j'ai un deck :time + :gravity que je posterai peut etre un jour sur le forum
j'ai mis pas mal de temps a le faire il est vraiment plus que complet.
encore bravo le post est super!
nice work
Post by: Kakerlake on January 24, 2011, 04:42:53 pm
I'm defenitely gonna try this version of ESco next time I'll be farming FG's.
Post by: pikachufan2164 on January 24, 2011, 05:03:48 pm
Looks like I'm going to be building this for testing!
Just out of curiosity, how long does each game take on the average for you? I'm sure that we'd all like to know where this deck fits in the win-time ratio spectrum :)
Also, how steep is the learning curve for the deck?
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on January 24, 2011, 05:56:05 pm
Post by: pikachufan2164 on January 24, 2011, 06:09:01 pm
Just tried antimattering my Scorp against a Gravity Shield but eh, that won't let it ignore it. Might want to change description with Graviton ::)Better idea: unupped Dune Scorpions. They have a higher chance to get through Gravity Shield after a Chaos Power. Besides, you only really need one hit of Neurotoxin and enough stalling and Rewinding for the strategy to work.
Using Butterfly Effect on one of your own Antimattered, Chaos Powered Scorpions works too, especially if the AI will ignore it because its attack power is negative.
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on January 24, 2011, 06:11:02 pm
Ah yes, just keep them unupped :PJust tried antimattering my Scorp against a Gravity Shield but eh, that won't let it ignore it. Might want to change description with Graviton ::)Better idea: unupped Dune Scorpions. They have a higher chance to get through Gravity Shield after a Chaos Power. Besides, you only really need one hit of Neurotoxin and enough stalling and Rewinding for the strategy to work.
Might not be best idea for all fgs, but it certainly helps in this case (unless you get +x|+5 with Chaos Power, then it has no effect).
Post by: SnoWeb on January 24, 2011, 07:23:53 pm
Oups, but you 2 guys said all other ways to circonvene it. Description changed.Ah yes, just keep them unupped :PJust tried antimattering my Scorp against a Gravity Shield but eh, that won't let it ignore it. Might want to change description with Graviton ::)Better idea: unupped Dune Scorpions. They have a higher chance to get through Gravity Shield after a Chaos Power. Besides, you only really need one hit of Neurotoxin and enough stalling and Rewinding for the strategy to work.
Might not be best idea for all fgs, but it certainly helps in this case (unless you get +x|+5 with Chaos Power, then it has no effect).
Post by: pikachufan2164 on January 25, 2011, 02:04:27 am
Since Graviton has only 2 Gravity Shields in a 70 card deck without Hourglasses, it's not usually going to get it out too early, even with the FG ability to double draw.
By that time, you should be able to comb through your deck and find the unupped Dune Scorpion and hope that you hit the ~80% chance (assuming all outcomes of defense boosts are equally likely) of being able to get through Gravity Shield after the Chaos Power.
Post by: frlaa on January 25, 2011, 05:37:01 am
Post by: SnoWeb on January 25, 2011, 07:37:35 am
Nice guide and stuff :D.
Nice work with the strategy guide!
Good work!
encore bravo le post est super!
nice work
Nice job. I am sure your deck will become very popular.Thanks Guys...
yeah i can see dg being really hard, i mean it rarely plays anything and when it does it will either be worth 8 damage each 2 turns (with turtle shield) for only two poison, the occasional pillar, or a damn miracleIt was a difficult battle but I'm proud to announce that Eternal Chaos (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20173.msg273635#msg273635) is also able to beat Divine Glory (Screen-shots in first post). It was a hard fight but after 3 miracles and the destruction of all my hourglasses, a shield and 2 eternities, I finally killed him with 63 poison counters ...
Just out of curiosity, how long does each game take on the average for you? I'm sure that we'd all like to know where this deck fits in the win-time ratio spectrum :)Generally you loose quite fast and after 5-6 you know if you will be able to deal with the difficult FG or if you can let it go. However, some win can take quite long (20 min). If your BE come late against Ferox or Miracle it can take forever.
On the other hand if you manage to deny one quanta pool (by continuously rewinding the same kind of creature and destroying the corresponding pillars) it can be very fast. I had a battle against miracle (for example) where he could not play a single miracle ...
The problem is that you want to put your scorpion early to make the maximum damage ASAP. However, sometimes if you wait a turn or two you might play your eternity or shield earlier and win a game you could have lost otherwise.
In other words, sometimes speed is the enemy of good. The most important here is the defence and a good defence can take time.
If you want to know if you should sell your fast-money-maker to buy this one, I'll answer no! This deck is NOT the most effective in time/electrum ratio. It is just a quite efficient way to have fun, slowly improve your score and make some card/money by grinding FGs.
Also, how steep is the learning curve for the deck?It will probably depend on your skills at the beginning. I you are used to a different kind of deck with which you grind like a brain-dead-monkey, you might need some time to see the subtleties of playing this one. However, if you now already well the card mechanics or if you already played with neurotoxin decks, it could be very fast. Seeing the propositions you made about the gravity shield, I thing it won't take you to long to understand how this deck works.
Also I hope my guide/tutorial might help some of you to extract the full power of Eternal Chaos ...
Have fun.
Post by: Bootsza on January 25, 2011, 08:36:32 am
Neurotoxin is one of my favourite mechanics in the game and your deck is a great use of it.
Congrats to you and the guys who worked on it :)
Post by: pikachufan2164 on January 25, 2011, 12:43:24 pm
I'm still learning the timings for each card, though. From what I deduce:
1. FG short on quanta of a particular element? Eternity before Turtle Shield. Otherwise, Turtle Shield comes first.
2. Hide Shields and Shards with Hourglasses and Eternities.
I'm still not sure of when to use Pandemonium, though. How many creatures should the FG have out before you start the mass CC spam?
Post by: SnoWeb on January 25, 2011, 01:27:47 pm
How many creatures should the FG have out before you start the mass CC spam?I can't give you a better answer than "too many". Look at (a) how fast he damage you vs how fast you heal (x2 if you have the shield), (b) if the creature on the field can suffer from the pandemonium (low hp, mutant, buffed creature, etc ...), (c) are those creatures needed for something else than direct damage (puffer and physalia for Scorpio, BEed creatures, RoL for Morte, etc ...), (d) can pandemonium injure the antimattered creatures (e) etc ...
Generally, I try to play antimatter after the pandemonium for obvious reasons.
Post by: TheNemesis on January 25, 2011, 03:35:28 pm
Post by: QuantumT on January 25, 2011, 10:01:38 pm
Post by: rowcla on January 26, 2011, 12:40:00 am
One note is that as long as poison + antimatter is bugged, this can be used to help EM. If your creature in the first slot has negative attack, the FG will live. Then your shards can heal you up before eternity finishes them off.poison + antimatter is a bug :o
Post by: SnoWeb on January 26, 2011, 07:33:01 am
One note is that as long as poison + antimatter is bugged, this can be used to help EM. If your creature in the first slot has negative attack, the FG will live. Then your shards can heal you up before eternity finishes them off.Yeah - I know. I always feel always weird using this. I didn't want to directly give it as a tip ... ehm ... thanks QuantumT :P
Post by: primarycolors on January 26, 2011, 05:31:20 pm
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on January 26, 2011, 09:35:19 pm
Post by: QuantumT on January 26, 2011, 09:40:43 pm
I'm amazed you can beat FG without Quints guarding your scorpions... Do they even target them?You really only need to hit with them once. After that, neurotoxin takes care of the rest.
Post by: timtwins on January 27, 2011, 03:14:41 am
Post by: Malignant on January 27, 2011, 07:16:30 am
It can be a really quick deck if you get a scorp out the first turn :)I think you mean the second turn, unless you have Entropy Tower/Pendulum...
Post by: SnoWeb on January 27, 2011, 07:57:21 am
It can be a really quick deck if you get a scorp out the first turn :)In fact, I play my scorpion second turn (malignant is right here) only if I have nothing better to play (specially if you have few quanta). One more rewind at the end to the reach the lethal amount of poison is not a big deal. However, you can only do that if you survive the critical first few turns. I'd say put up your defence first, then hit with neurotoxin (with a few exception - see guide).
Considering all the redundancy in the deck, is only one copy of BE optimal?I started with 2 at the beginning (idem if you take a look at the original version of eSco). Then I realised BE is quite situational. It is more "optimal" IMHO to use the slot for a better card for defence (shield, hourglass, eternity). You have only 3 scorpions. The first one is used for poisoning. The second is the adaptable one : use BE for ferox or miracle, antimatter for the FG having a lot of CC, as poisoning again for Scorpio, etc...). The last one is deemed to be rewound. I don't think an earlier BE is really needed in most cases also because it requires a lot of :entropy. At the beginning of the game you'll prefer to use it on antimatter or pandemonium (just in case 3 light dragons appear) and you will have enough quantum to destroy each turn only at the middle/end ...
Post by: Newbiecake on January 27, 2011, 08:25:27 am
Can someone test this for me, I have to work now: a Purple Nymth on the field that is Antimattered; will it get targeted? I want to have more Antimatters in the long run against Graviton, Obliterator, etc.
I LOVE your deck btw. Hope this makes it into the archives!
Post by: Malignant on January 27, 2011, 12:47:12 pm
(http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/15/54/21/77/divine12.jpg)
Now if I can EM the gods Sno hasn't yet :D...
Post by: Newbiecake on January 27, 2011, 06:23:45 pm
Post by: pikachufan2164 on January 27, 2011, 06:27:58 pm
I love the win rate, but it's really hard to get EMs without using poison+antimatter. EMs do affect the chance to win cards right? I don't realyl care about the Electrums, I want the cards. How much better of a chance will EM let me win cards?I don't think whether or not you EM has any effect on card win rate.
If you want cards, then you should be playing with a deck that sacrifices win rate for extra win speed, like Turbo RoL/Hope or Voodoo.
Post by: Newbiecake on January 27, 2011, 06:40:12 pm
Quote
If you want cards, then you should be playing with a deck that sacrifices win rate for extra win speed, like Turbo RoL/Hope or Voodoo.I actually prefer win rate> speed, because then I can win a variety of cards against different gods instead of the easy ones. Besides, this deck is funner by far. :) Like Sno said, RoL/ Fractal is about as boring as German politics. :D
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on January 27, 2011, 07:08:49 pm
Post by: Newbiecake on January 27, 2011, 07:26:37 pm
Post by: Newbiecake on January 27, 2011, 08:03:23 pm
I don't know how to magnify the image yet. Which size converter do I pick? :O I'm such a newb.
(http://imageplay.net/m7Gbd130586/FFQ_EM_Denial_of_Fire_thumb.jpg) (http://imageplay.net/view/m7Gbd130586/FFQ_EM_Denial_of_Fire)
EDIT: When fighting Mindgate dudes, just keep Rewinding your own scorpions when you get them so the AI will get endless copies of them, while slowly getting poisoned to death. If you need to draw some Shards to heal up if the opponent is doing too much damage, just draw from the Hourglasses you have before Rewinding the Scorpion.
(http://imageplay.net/m7Gbd130601/Mindgate_Tip_thumb.jpg) (http://imageplay.net/view/m7Gbd130601/Mindgate_Tip)
Post by: suxerz on January 27, 2011, 09:49:19 pm
Pardon me if I'm a bit late to discuss this, but are you positive that AM can outheal neurotoxin? I'm aware that it works with normal poison but I've tested with neurotoxin in trainer a while ago and the result (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,13905.0.html) is different.One note is that as long as poison + antimatter is bugged, this can be used to help EM. If your creature in the first slot has negative attack, the FG will live. Then your shards can heal you up before eternity finishes them off.Yeah - I know. I always feel always weird using this. I didn't want to directly give it as a tip ... ehm ... thanks QuantumT :P
Post by: Newbiecake on January 28, 2011, 01:32:41 am
Post by: wizelsnarf on January 28, 2011, 03:52:12 am
Well lo and behold here was Eternal Chaos.
Great win % but I am still getting a handle on EMing. Its actually quite hard. Really annoying when a RoL vs ferox or some FG gives me a 99 hp finish. >:D
Great work though. I would say this deck is better than CCYB, albeit a little slower and harder to EM with.
Post by: Getawu2 on January 28, 2011, 05:59:57 am
Post by: willng3 on January 28, 2011, 06:16:21 am
Post by: dukeborric on January 28, 2011, 02:38:30 pm
(http://imageplay.net/m7Gbd131435/chaos_lord_EM_thumb.jpg) (http://imageplay.net/view/m7Gbd131435/chaos_lord_EM)
think you were still looking for it.
love the deck, mine not fully upped yet, still need towers and pendulums which means my win rate is much lower. :(
Post by: Newbiecake on January 28, 2011, 09:44:44 pm
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on January 28, 2011, 09:56:32 pm
Post by: willng3 on January 28, 2011, 11:10:44 pm
Whose the toughest FG for this deck?I have yet to kill either Dream Catcher or Divine Glory with this deck; Explosions or opposing Butterfly Effects are absolutely brutal. I've gotten closer to killing DG than DC though, so I would have to vote for Dream Catcher.
Post by: Newbiecake on January 29, 2011, 12:14:41 am
Post by: TheNemesis on January 30, 2011, 10:28:30 am
He didn't draw into Quintessence, and I kept rewinding his nymph or destroy.
Post by: Fan of Rainbows on January 30, 2011, 04:01:12 pm
I'd appreciate any responses
FoR
Post by: rowcla on January 31, 2011, 03:30:36 am
I'm assuming that this deck is basically impossible to make unupped in any way. Based on the fact that many of the cards need to be upped for success. If I'm wrong and this is possible to build unupped a certain way, then what would it be?obviously its impossible to make this deck unupped as SoGs and chaos power are both useless unupped for their current purpose, however an unupped version could be made using blessings/momentum, though obviously being unupped will have worse results
I'd appreciate any responses
FoR
Post by: SnoWeb on January 31, 2011, 07:30:38 am
I'm assuming that this deck is basically impossible to make unupped in any way. Based on the fact that many of the cards need to be upped for success. If I'm wrong and this is possible to build unupped a certain way, then what would it be?cards that need to be upped (do not start without it) : SoG, Chaos Power, Hourglasses, most of the towers and pendulums
I'd appreciate any responses
FoR
cards better upped but not indispensable (to up in this order) : antimatter, shields, pandemonium (a bit trickier to play then), eternity, BE
cards sometimes better unupped : dune scorpions (see above discussion on gravity shield).
Post by: zombie0 on January 31, 2011, 04:56:15 pm
Post by: pikachufan2164 on January 31, 2011, 05:03:14 pm
anyone else put this deck together and get crushed as hard as i did? lots of incoming damage, no stall besides taking half damage against non momentum. never saw clutch pandemoniums, which seems to be your only chance at not getting outrushed. even added some hourglasses to help the stall, still some turns behind a reliable win. any advice?Early Eternity is your way of enforcing the defence that Turtle Shield gives. If you can find a large creature to rewind and drain one of the FG's quanta pools from the constant rewind/replay cycle, it generally nets you a win if you can keep your healing up.
Post by: Newbiecake on January 31, 2011, 05:44:49 pm
Quote
Early Eternity is your way of enforcing the defence that Turtle Shield gives. If you can find a large creature to rewind and drain one of the FG's quanta pools from the constant rewind/replay cycle, it generally nets you a win if you can keep your healing up.Off topic: Nets...haha. Funny you should say that, because you've been "netted" way too many times. XD
Post by: Fan of Rainbows on January 31, 2011, 11:07:33 pm
SoG, Chaos Power, Hourglasses, Antimatter, Shields, Pandemonium, Eternity, and BE
Working on towers as of right now.
Thanks for all responses!
FoR
Post by: Tichan on February 01, 2011, 04:09:48 am
Code: [Select]
4vo 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5ro 5ro 5ro 5rt 5rt 5rt 5t2 5t2 5t2 5t2 5t2 5t2 5t2 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6u2 6u2 6u2 6u7 6u7 6u7 6u9 6u9 7q3 7q3 7q5 7q5 7q5
Post by: Newbiecake on February 01, 2011, 04:24:13 am
Post by: Malignant on February 01, 2011, 07:29:48 am
I recommend upgrading the pendulums before the Towers. You need early :time to set up your defences. I also recommend +1 Time Tower and -1 Time Pendulum for the same reason. It works much better because :entropy is not needed early. Your choice.Upgrading Pendulums = Upgrading Pillars...
Post by: SnoWeb on February 01, 2011, 07:43:51 am
Dukeborric gave the first EMScreenshot on Chaos Lord here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20173.msg276677#msg276677). I put the link in the guide in the OP.
For the competition the missing EMscreenshot are Decay, Divine Glory, Dream Catcher, Eternal Phoenix, Octane, Paradox, Rainbow and Scorpio.
anyone else put this deck together and get crushed as hard as i did? lots of incoming damage, no stall besides taking half damage against non momentum. never saw clutch pandemoniums, which seems to be your only chance at not getting outrushed. even added some -sundials- to help the stall, still some turns behind a reliable win. any advice?I'll recommand you to try it first on AI5. Zse claims a win rate superior to 95% here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11715.msg154119#msg154119). See how it works, which cards are important to play first, etc ... Also read this whole thread, a lot of advices by experienced player are in. Good Luck.
Whose the toughest FG for this deck?
I have yet to kill either Dream Catcher or Divine Glory with this deck; Explosions or opposing Butterfly Effects are absolutely brutal. I've gotten closer to killing DG than DC though, so I would have to vote for Dream Catcher.
Divine Glory...I think only Sno and Maglinant has. Dream Catcher...hope you get an Eternity AND Turtle Shield early, an also hope that Dream Catcher plays a Purple Nymth before BE, then just keep Rewinding it, wasting her :entropy s. She tends to play the Purple Nymth before the BE.I'll have to agree with Noobiecakes. I didn't have so many problems with Dream Catcher. In case of early BE, I wait for a pandemonium before I play my permanents. I've to say Eternal Phoenix is quite tough but the real nightmare is our friend Divine Glory IMO.
Post by: wizelsnarf on February 03, 2011, 01:02:54 am
The win rate is still good for me (maybe 40%) but I have a lot of times were my starting hand is an autoquit.
Quanta is one issue, about 1 in 10 games I get a bunch of towers and nothing good or the opposite with like 1 time pendulum and i am sitting there for 6-8 turns doing nothing.
This deck relies on getting all the right cards. If you don't pull an eternity and a turtle shield relatively early, you are pretty much screwed.
Also, there are a lot of ways to make mistakes with this deck. Play a shard and it takes 3 quanta from the same pool and you are kicking yourself. Play your turtle shield without anything else and boom, its gone. Pandemonium freezes creatures with a skill, because of turtle shield they are able to use the skill while frozen. Chaos power the scorpion and all the sudden it has 5 attack. Since you didn't have antimatter it gets Twinned and you are getting roughed up from behind by scorpio or elidnis or gemini.
Overall i like the deck but it is frustrating how little things have resulted ine me losing like 13 out of the last 15 gods i have played. (overall percentage is better but still)
Post by: Newbiecake on February 03, 2011, 01:45:19 am
I have been playing a lot with this deck and am routinely losing.Your quanta problem would be improved if you -1 Pendulum and +1 Time Tower. I'm repeating myself here, but Entropy is not mandatory in the beginning of the game, so a stress of Time Towers would be better.
The win rate is still good for me (maybe 40%) but I have a lot of times were my starting hand is an autoquit.
Quanta is one issue, about 1 in 10 games I get a bunch of towers and nothing good or the opposite with like 1 time pendulum and i am sitting there for 6-8 turns doing nothing.
This deck relies on getting all the right cards. If you don't pull an eternity and a turtle shield relatively early, you are pretty much screwed.
Also, there are a lot of ways to make mistakes with this deck. Play a shard and it takes 3 quanta from the same pool and you are kicking yourself. Play your turtle shield without anything else and boom, its gone. Pandemonium freezes creatures with a skill, because of turtle shield they are able to use the skill while frozen. Chaos power the scorpion and all the sudden it has 5 attack. Since you didn't have antimatter it gets Twinned and you are getting roughed up from behind by scorpio or elidnis or gemini.
Overall i like the deck but it is frustrating how little things have resulted ine me losing like 13 out of the last 15 gods i have played. (overall percentage is better but still)
The shard thing is sometimes frustrating too, but I usually wait till there is more Entropy than Time before I play one, so I have a higher to drain from the Entropy pool than Time. Here's an example for the first few turns of the game (assuming the Towers and Pendulums are upped):
-1 Tower, 1 Pendulum: 2 :time as you play them, 2 more when you end your turn. DON'T use the shards yet, instead, play any permanents that are good for setting up your defences; Turtle Shield > Electrum Hourglass > Eternity. There is really no point to throw an Eternity out when you are still lacking in :time at the start of the game. As soon as you have played one of those, or have not, end turn, then you should have 3 :entropy s. THAT is when you play the shards, because the :entropy ratio is greater than :time, and you will get some more :time the next turn from your Towers and Pendulums. That's how I set up my defences, and it's works wonders. Keep using shards when the :entropy pool is greater than :time. Only use shards when the :time pool is greater than :entropy if the opponent is rushing you hard.
Post by: 152710 on February 03, 2011, 03:44:18 pm
TTW?
How "fast" or "slow" is this deck. In other words, how many turns are you giving in to "faster" decks out there?
can you give me an overview of god-by-god breakdown of TTW?
For example, a normal CCYB deck does around 18 Turns on average to kill a god, Eternal chaos?
Anyone dare to provide some numbers?
I am guessing here, but I think it should be close to 20...
Post by: rowcla on February 03, 2011, 04:38:40 pm
my computer cant take screenshots but i managed to EM Decay, damn it!
Post by: Jappert on February 03, 2011, 04:43:50 pm
Anyway, I like the win rates against Dark Matter and Eternal Phoenix, I might actually consider using this when the Oracle predicts Dark Matter, thanks!
Post by: wavedash on February 03, 2011, 04:49:11 pm
Post by: rowcla on February 03, 2011, 04:54:38 pm
What kind of a computer can't take screenshots? Microsoft ME?Mac :(
bah i just did it again, seriously why cant you guys?
Post by: wizelsnarf on February 03, 2011, 05:27:17 pm
Interesting deck. First thing that comes to mind is:
TTW?
How "fast" or "slow" is this deck. In other words, how many turns are you giving in to "faster" decks out there?
can you give me an overview of god-by-god breakdown of TTW?
For example, a normal CCYB deck does around 18 Turns on average to kill a god, Eternal chaos?
Anyone dare to provide some numbers?
I am guessing here, but I think it should be close to 20...
This deck is really variable. On a good start, I can get out an eternity and turtle shield and keep rewinding high cost creatures. If I get the scorpion and chaos seed soon thereafter, I can just rewind and the game will be done in like 12-15 turns - quick too.
On the other hand, I have gone into "anti deck out" mod and rewound my scorp for like 7-8 turns giving me a 30+ turn win.
It really depends but on average i would say this deck is a little slower than CCYB. It is definitely faster in specific instances, but if you average in the times that took forever, it is probably slower than CCYB, average.
Post by: wavedash on February 03, 2011, 06:10:42 pm
Why kind of Mac can't take screenshots? The iMac?What kind of a computer can't take screenshots? Microsoft ME?Mac :(
bah i just did it again, seriously why cant you guys?
Post by: ArtCrusade on February 03, 2011, 09:53:31 pm
Post by: rowcla on February 03, 2011, 11:41:05 pm
some kind of macbook....Why kind of Mac can't take screenshots? The iMac?What kind of a computer can't take screenshots? Microsoft ME?Mac :(
bah i just did it again, seriously why cant you guys?
Post by: wizelsnarf on February 08, 2011, 03:23:41 am
There are just more things that can go wrong than can go right. Quanta is the main issue as I said before. Any destruction, stealing or blackholes set you backs turns and turns.
You are lucky if you get an early shield.
The final straw was me with tons of HP kicking Eternal Chaos's butt. I was pretty close to winning but I started having to rewind my scorpions. NP until he stole my eternity thus decking me.
so many other times I have been within 1 turn of winning with this deck that it is too frustrating to continue. I think it does a better job at more FGs than CCYB, but some gods for CCYB are really easy while this deck struggles against all the FGs.
I think it is a good idea, but not good enough to takeover my FG grinding with CCYB.
Post by: 152710 on February 08, 2011, 07:00:51 am
I was kind of smitten by this deck, but today I went 2 wins to 20 losses straight. My score dropped down a lot and I got over this deck.I have exactly the same feeling with this deck. Personally it just takes too long in my eyes. I did about 40 games, and only got a handfull of wins, where it took me around 20-30 turns to get there.
There are just more things that can go wrong than can go right. Quanta is the main issue as I said before. Any destruction, stealing or blackholes set you backs turns and turns.
You are lucky if you get an early shield.
The final straw was me with tons of HP kicking Eternal Chaos's butt. I was pretty close to winning but I started having to rewind my scorpions. NP until he stole my eternity thus decking me.
so many other times I have been within 1 turn of winning with this deck that it is too frustrating to continue. I think it does a better job at more FGs than CCYB, but some gods for CCYB are really easy while this deck struggles against all the FGs.
I think it is a good idea, but not good enough to takeover my FG grinding with CCYB.
It is a nice deck, but not for grinding FG. Too slow, and last turn losses are plenty. I like to know as early as possible that I am going to lose so I can quit and move on.
Post by: thatnewguy on February 08, 2011, 08:14:48 pm
I love scorpions killing FGs, I gotta get around to tweaking it sooner or later tho.
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on February 08, 2011, 08:30:02 pm
I was kind of smitten by this deck, but today I went 2 wins to 20 losses straight. My score dropped down a lot and I got over this deck.Eternal Chaos? That is the name of the deck...
There are just more things that can go wrong than can go right. Quanta is the main issue as I said before. Any destruction, stealing or blackholes set you backs turns and turns.
You are lucky if you get an early shield.
The final straw was me with tons of HP kicking Eternal Chaos's butt. I was pretty close to winning but I started having to rewind my scorpions. NP until he stole my eternity thus decking me.
so many other times I have been within 1 turn of winning with this deck that it is too frustrating to continue. I think it does a better job at more FGs than CCYB, but some gods for CCYB are really easy while this deck struggles against all the FGs.
I think it is a good idea, but not good enough to takeover my FG grinding with CCYB.
Post by: SnoWeb on February 09, 2011, 07:37:19 am
Just EM'd octane with this deck, only half upped at that.Good Work, TNG. Sad you don't have a screenshot for our intra-thread EMscreenshot competition...
I love scorpions killing FGs, I gotta get around to tweaking it sooner or later tho.
Here is mine (made today after i answered to MrBlonde ;) ):
(http://i74.servimg.com/u/f74/15/54/21/77/octane10.jpg)
Just an hour later (during my mid-morning break) I just EM'd Decay:
(http://i74.servimg.com/u/f74/15/54/21/77/decay_10.jpg)
Left for the competition: missing EMscreenshot : Divine Glory, Dream Catcher, Eternal Phoenix, Paradox, Rainbow and Scorpio.
Post by: MrBlonde on February 09, 2011, 07:42:13 am
I have exactly the same feeling with this deck. Personally it just takes too long in my eyes. I did about 40 games, and only got a handfull of wins, where it took me around 20-30 turns to get there.I personally like this deck. But i did have one nightmarishly slow game with miracle. Basically i had to use 3 Chaos powers on 1 dune to finally get a poison counter (due to jade shield) and this was when i had 5 cards left so i pretty much decked Miracle out and this is with me rewinding his creatures a bunch of time. Beyond the occasional slow game though i like it. Only have 27 games under my belt so we shall c. It's not as slow as Lone Stalker at least.
It is a nice deck, but not for grinding FG. Too slow, and last turn losses are plenty. I like to know as early as possible that I am going to lose so I can quit and move on.
Post by: SnoWeb on February 09, 2011, 07:53:39 am
But i did have one nightmarishly slow game with miracle. Basically i had to use 3 Chaos powers on 1 dune to finally get a poison counter (due to jade shield) and this was when i had 5 cards left so i pretty much decked Miracle out and this is with me rewinding his creatures a bunch of time.A similar drama happen to me vs Obliterator. He had an early protected diamond shield. I used my 3 CP on 1 scorpion to get 3 times +1 atk!!! I had to antimatter it later to get my first neurotoxin counter ... I was lucky he didn't play his pulveriser before my other scorpion with BE was out. It was a hard battle. ;)
Also, I'm glad to see that the Death lovers (MrBlonde and TNG) like this deck. Nice way to poison your opponent isn't it;)
Post by: The_Mormegil on February 09, 2011, 06:13:34 pm
Post by: PhantomFungi on February 14, 2011, 03:11:20 pm
For Dark Matter, I've only ever seen one game in which he didn't use black hole every turn (first via card, then nymph). There was one, special game in which he didn't and I managed to get my turtle shield, eternity, and some shards out. But at that point, he had about 4 chargers, two angels, etc., and there was no way to fully keep up. I'd love to hear some more specific strategies for how you get a 75% win rate. It's all well and good to suggest using antimatter on chargers and rewinding nymphs, but ... that's a bit difficult if he's spamming black hole every turn and I never have quanta.
For Decay, I see how to beat him and I came close once, but that was only because I got a scorpion/chaos power out on my second turn. Still, he had no problem chaining drain life and keeping ahead of the poison. I saved up towers to play shards, but he cheerfully stole these. I suppose I could have saved up quanta for some "bait" hourglasses, but it's not like I had quanta to spare or the time to waste doing it since he was busy killing me.
Anyway. I love the deck, but I'd love to hear some more specific strategies for these gods. They easily wipe the floor with me every time.
Post by: SnoWeb on February 14, 2011, 05:00:50 pm
A trick for dark matter: don't play your pillar/pendulums too early. Save them for when you can play your eternity.
Post by: Newbiecake on February 14, 2011, 09:21:34 pm
A trick for decay: when you have the turtle shield up, the quanta are only absorbed from the devourer going out of the time bubble whereas the damage is only done by those going in. This means that if the devourers are synchronized you can have quanta every two turns ... (this helps).For the Dark Matter tip, I personally think that it would be better to play those Towers/Pends early so she will use all those Black Holes early. The Eternity wouldn't be of much use when Dark Matter keeps denying you of Rewinds anyway.
A trick for dark matter: don't play your pillar/pendulums too early. Save them for when you can play your eternity.
How do you beat Hermes? You said there is a 30% win rate against him but so far I have yet to be victorious against him.
Post by: willng3 on February 14, 2011, 09:32:05 pm
DM will play the Black Holes regardless of how much quanta you have on the board...AI stupidity FTW. May as well save up quanta until Dark Matter is done making a fool of itself. As for Hermes...I seem to recall having trouble with him. Eternities not getting blown up definitely helped. Occasionally I would have to AM + BE his biggest Destroyer to prevent it from outgrowing the Antimatter. Basically I just played my permanents smart. Usually how I kill him anyways.A trick for decay: when you have the turtle shield up, the quanta are only absorbed from the devourer going out of the time bubble whereas the damage is only done by those going in. This means that if the devourers are synchronized you can have quanta every two turns ... (this helps).For the Dark Matter tip, I personally think that it would be better to play those Towers/Pends early so she will use all those Black Holes early. The Eternity wouldn't be of much use when Dark Matter keeps denying you of Rewinds anyway.
A trick for dark matter: don't play your pillar/pendulums too early. Save them for when you can play your eternity.
How do you beat Hermes? You said there is a 30% win rate against him but so far I have yet to be victorious against him.
Post by: SnoWeb on February 15, 2011, 01:12:53 pm
DM will play the Black Holes regardless of how much quanta you have on the board...AI stupidity FTW. May as well save up quanta until Dark Matter is done making a fool of itself.This is perfectly true. DM is using Black Holes as an ass ----!
As for Hermes...I seem to recall having trouble with him. Eternities not getting blown up definitely helped. Occasionally I would have to AM + BE his biggest Destroyer to prevent it from outgrowing the Antimatter. Basically I just played my permanents smart. Usually how I kill him anyways.Against Hermes it is almost impossible to have the BEed scorpion up and running. You'd better use your BE as an expensive lobo (see first screenshot in Hermes guide OP).
Below some fun Screenshots:
(http://i74.servimg.com/u/f74/15/54/21/77/ferox_12.jpg)(http://i74.servimg.com/u/f74/15/54/21/77/hermes11.jpg)
You need to find the trick ... (CP gave 3 Atk).(http://i74.servimg.com/u/f74/15/54/21/77/rainbo11.jpg)
Post by: The_Mormegil on February 15, 2011, 01:35:07 pm
(http://i74.servimg.com/u/f74/15/54/21/77/hermes11.jpg)You need to be lucky with Chaos Power. Play Dune Scorpion, use Chaos Power, if it gives 5 you can't gain EM, if it gives 4 or less you Antimatter it and the poison + healing reduces the opponent to 4 or less hp. Eternity for the kill, after SoGs kick in.
You need to find the trick ... (CP gave 3 Atk).
Post by: wizelsnarf on February 28, 2011, 01:57:57 am
Post by: pikachufan2164 on February 28, 2011, 02:46:38 am
Lionheart: Not too bad, for the most part. Early Scorp > early Eternity, most likely. Turtle Shield is infinitely useful in holding off their creature army and preventing ability use. Rewind priority is Anubis > Pharaoh > Crusader = Flying Eternity (though the presence of Quintessence will make it difficult to Rewind his creatures).
Hecate: A little more difficult due to the 4 Steals (remember the PC priority list), but you'll still find it quite easy. Eternity is highly useful, as is Turtle Shield. Rewind the Dolls, and eventually she'll run out of Rage Elixirs and have low enough damage output. If you like, you may as well Antimatter a Raged, vampire Doll so that it does damage for you.
Serket: Difficult. It's a poison race, and you need to win with an early Scorp. Pandemonium is a key card here -- it helps remove opposing creatures (since almost all of them have low HP) and breaks through Cloak. Antimatter the Recluses, Rewind the opposing Scorpions, and have a BE Scorp handy for destroying their Eclipses and deactivating their Deathstalkers. Cloak could be a problem, as you rely on targeting, but Pandemonium luckily breaks through it.
Jezebel: Very difficult. 8 Steals and 6 Cloaks means that you likely won't be able to Rewind her Nymphs (or do much at all, for the matter) if you don't set up properly. Use the PC priorities to protect your Shield and Shards, as they are essential for your survival. If you suspect she has Steals early on, feel free to hold on to your permanents and let her steal your Towers and Pends. Hourglasses and Eternity are also good Steal bait once you get your defenses up. Pandemonium breaks through Cloak, but it looks like you won't be able to do much after the uncloaking anyway. Early Scorp is probably better in this situation.
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd151767/Dune_Jezebel.jpg)
Post by: Chodos on March 08, 2011, 09:11:36 pm
Post by: pikachufan2164 on March 08, 2011, 10:05:15 pm
If this deck does so well against nearly all the FG's, then why isn't it getting more attention. This might be one of the best FG farmers if it can at least have a chance of beating all of them.It isn't all about the win rate. The win speed (i.e. the average number of wins per hour) also matters too. When done properly, decks with higher win rates are most likely to be slower than ones that have a lower win rate. The inverse is also true. A large 60-card Timebow can achieve win rates of ~60%, but games take a fair amount of time to complete. Eternal Chaos is one of those slower decks with a higher win rate.
Also, this deck uses cards that most people won't have upgraded, since it doesn't use a lot of the standard FG rainbow cards. You really need to go out of your way to upgrade those Time Towers, Time Pendulums, Eternities, and Turtle Shields.
Eternal Chaos has a fairly steep learning curve as well. Even with SnoWeb's tips, you still need to develop a sense of what you should do in each situation, and that takes a certain amount of experience and skill. In fact, even after nearly 100 games, I'm still nowhere close to a ~60% average (currently hovering at ~50%) -- I have much to learn about how the deck works. Some of the other popular decks (like RoL/Hope, CCYB, and Timebows) are much easier to pick up and play at a decent level.
Don't let it stop you from using the deck, though. Eternal Chaos is one of those really fun and effective decks out there, although it does take a whole lot of skill to use successfully.
Post by: The_Mormegil on March 08, 2011, 10:17:09 pm
Don't let it stop you from using the deck, though. Eternal Chaos is one of those really fun and effective decks out there, although it does take a whole lot of skill to use successfully.Well, no need to be that drastic, it doesn't need all that skill to be used... The only tricky situations are the cases when you're low on quanta and the necessity to calibrate permanents with DG, Hermes and Obliterator.
Post by: Newbiecake on March 08, 2011, 11:06:52 pm
If this deck does so well against nearly all the FG's, then why isn't it getting more attention. This might be one of the best FG farmers if it can at least have a chance of beating all of them.It isn't all about the win rate. The win speed (i.e. the average number of wins per hour) also matters too. When done properly, decks with higher win rates are most likely to be slower than ones that have a lower win rate. The inverse is also true. A large 60-card Timebow can achieve win rates of ~60%, but games take a fair amount of time to complete. Eternal Chaos is one of those slower decks with a higher win rate. I've GotP Time is decently fast, with the help of a more abundant amount of Hourglasses. Win rate is 62%, because several of the PC gods EC doesnt do well against IGT is capable of taking on. And trust me, I'm only getting started with IGT as well, currently only have 130-150 games completed.
Also, this deck uses cards that most people won't have upgraded, since it doesn't use a lot of the standard FG rainbow cards. You really need to go out of your way to upgrade those Time Towers, Time Pendulums, Eternities, and Turtle Shields. True. But if you've already got those upgraded, why not try IGT as well? You've already got 3/4 of IGT covered if you have upgraded EC fully.
Eternal Chaos has a fairly steep learning curve as well. Even with SnoWeb's tips, you still need to develop a sense of what you should do in each situation, and that takes a certain amount of experience and skill. In fact, even after nearly 100 games, I'm still nowhere close to a ~60% average (currently hovering at ~50%) -- I have much to learn about how the deck works. Some of the other popular decks (like RoL/Hope, CCYB, and Timebows) are much easier to pick up and play at a decent level.
Don't let it stop you from using the deck, though. Eternal Chaos is one of those really fun and effective decks out there, although it does take a whole lot of skill to use successfully. IGT is all about timing. The most important thing is how you play your Eternities, Hourglasses, Shields, etc properly. If you get the technique of the playing priority between Eternities and Hourglasses, you will succeed with IGT.
Post by: SnoWeb on March 09, 2011, 08:06:44 am
I noticed your not very discreet advertising. I went to see your version. I'll give it a try. I agree with what you said. When you have the time upgrade to play one. Why not try the others (see here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19681.msg266954#msg266954) and here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17360.msg235856#msg235856)). I'm quite good at advertising myself.
P.S. : remember this thread is about EChaos not about IGT ...
P.S.2: I put Pikachufan2164's comment about the new gods in the OP.
Post by: zse on March 09, 2011, 08:44:11 pm
-1 CP -1 DS +1 Tower +1 Eternity.
Maybe it's just me, but having 3+3 winning cards just felt too much. :)) Eh, seriously speaking, I got bored with lacking :time quanta and defense cards early. Winning games little slower is OK, as long as I can survive FG initial rushes more often.
Post by: Newbiecake on March 09, 2011, 09:35:15 pm
Post by: SnoWeb on March 10, 2011, 07:29:01 am
I've now tried how this deck works against improved 1.27 AI, and it seems to do the job quite well. At least after 2 minor tweaks I made:I completely agree. The early scorpion is only useful against EP and decay. For the rest, it can wait a bit. I tried it for a while (-1 CP -1 DS +1 Tower +1 Eternity or + 1 shield). I've to say the loss in speed is huge but it might win a bit more (without real numbers I can't certify). I am glad that the originator of the deck finally gave it a try. Thanks for your tip.
-1 CP -1 DS +1 Tower +1 Eternity.
Maybe it's just me, but having 3+3 winning cards just felt too much. :)) Eh, seriously speaking, I got bored with lacking :time quanta and defense cards early. Winning games little slower is OK, as long as I can survive FG initial rushes more often.
Post by: Zeru on March 10, 2011, 07:53:23 am
This deck is worth looking at again with the introduction of 1.27 Anybody want to redo stats or at least give tips for new FGs?I will redo the stats sooner or later. Right now I have about 100 battles, and yes, the deck is worth looking at.
Post by: SnoWeb on March 10, 2011, 08:24:12 am
I will redo the stats sooner or later. Right now I have about 100 battles, and yes, the deck is worth looking at.Thanks - Grand Master. Don't hesitate to post your tweaks, tips and screenshots.
Post by: frlaa on March 13, 2011, 01:17:11 am
Post by: Zeru on March 13, 2011, 07:25:40 am
Seriously this deck is amazing. I'm using this deck with better results than CCYB. But why dont you use unupped pandemonium instead. They cost so much less especially in the beginning.You are right, not upgrading pandemonium is a good option. Especially that you don't need the scorpions after they bite. 3 :entropy is very useful vs Decay, Ferox and Hermes, where you want that early pandemonium.
I use upgraded because usually I don't need this spell early (better to wait for the enemy field to fill up). And in the mid game where this spell shines, 2 extra :entropy doesn't matter.
Another possibility of not upgrading cards is Dune Scorpion. Less hp makes it easier to ignore gravity shield.
Post by: frlaa on March 13, 2011, 02:11:56 pm
Post by: tttt on March 15, 2011, 11:10:49 pm
Post by: jmdt on March 28, 2011, 02:40:01 pm
Post by: Sug81 on March 28, 2011, 08:59:11 pm
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on March 28, 2011, 09:12:39 pm
Post by: Sug81 on March 28, 2011, 09:29:48 pm
It has the best stats in my opinion to win FG but only them. That is because only these play so many cards so they can die in 6-7 rounds. :D
Post by: Bonestorm on March 29, 2011, 12:53:56 am
EDIT:
Been using this deck a couple of hours, great fun and works brilliantly. It's also very flexible, obviously with this deck you can take good advantage of quanta imbalance on some of the fake gods with Eternity's rewind and Butterfly Effect and lock them down nicely, it slows down play but can save your life if you're taking too much damage.
Feels good not to be using a :rainbow, love this deck ;D
Post by: jmdt on March 29, 2011, 02:38:06 pm
Post by: Hobnob5000 on March 29, 2011, 09:37:39 pm
After playing a total of 50 games in the trainer, I found that only in 6 of them did I ever get both the Scorpion and the Chaos Power quick enough. Only having 3 of each of them often makes it VERY difficult to draw them both within time.
During the time I'm waiting, I find I cannot generate significant quanta to run the Antimatters (if I ever even draw them) or the Pandemoniums. The Butterfly Effects basically never even get seen in my games, and the Turtle shield can only do so much.
Basically, if all of the Scorpions or Chaos Powers are in the lower half of the deck, you're screwed over as far as I can see. Any suggestions?
Post by: pikachufan2164 on March 29, 2011, 10:10:26 pm
Deck looks good, but after testing myself, I'm starting to wonder whether I'm doing something wrong.The basic strategy is to stall until you can get the first Neurotoxin hit in, then keep stalling and Rewinding the opposition until you win.
After playing a total of 50 games in the trainer, I found that only in 6 of them did I ever get both the Scorpion and the Chaos Power quick enough. Only having 3 of each of them often makes it VERY difficult to draw them both within time.
During the time I'm waiting, I find I cannot generate significant quanta to run the Antimatters (if I ever even draw them) or the Pandemoniums. The Butterfly Effects basically never even get seen in my games, and the Turtle shield can only do so much.
Basically, if all of the Scorpions or Chaos Powers are in the lower half of the deck, you're screwed over as far as I can see. Any suggestions?
Good timing on the SoG drops are essential, as is knowing which of your permanents are to be "protected" by higher-PC-priority permanents.
Post by: Onizuka on March 30, 2011, 12:45:01 am
What is it now?
Post by: willng3 on March 30, 2011, 12:48:31 am
Post by: jmdt on March 30, 2011, 12:51:28 am
In the case of this deck I'm pretty sure it hasn't changed. From highest to lowest it should go Eternity > Hourglass > SoG > Pends > Towers.shield goes after hourglass ;)
Post by: willng3 on March 30, 2011, 12:52:57 am
Thanks for posting that while I was editing it in ::)In the case of this deck I'm pretty sure it hasn't changed. From highest to lowest it should go Eternity > Hourglass > SoG > Pends > Towers.shield goes after hourglass ;)
Post by: Onizuka on March 30, 2011, 12:56:37 am
Post by: Hobnob5000 on March 30, 2011, 06:52:38 am
I gather that, but there's only so much you can do when there are only 6 creature control cards that can be used (Seeing as only 1 Eternity can be out at once) and Pandemonium rarely ends up killing anything I find, so you're left with antimatter, which is expensive and not always effective.Deck looks good, but after testing myself, I'm starting to wonder whether I'm doing something wrong.The basic strategy is to stall until you can get the first Neurotoxin hit in, then keep stalling and Rewinding the opposition until you win.
After playing a total of 50 games in the trainer, I found that only in 6 of them did I ever get both the Scorpion and the Chaos Power quick enough. Only having 3 of each of them often makes it VERY difficult to draw them both within time.
During the time I'm waiting, I find I cannot generate significant quanta to run the Antimatters (if I ever even draw them) or the Pandemoniums. The Butterfly Effects basically never even get seen in my games, and the Turtle shield can only do so much.
Basically, if all of the Scorpions or Chaos Powers are in the lower half of the deck, you're screwed over as far as I can see. Any suggestions?
Good timing on the SoG drops are essential, as is knowing which of your permanents are to be "protected" by higher-PC-priority permanents.
I'll do some more testing, but as of now I'm not thoroughly convinced.
Post by: twixy10 on April 04, 2011, 02:52:12 pm
Akebono
(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/twixy10/akebonowin.png)
Lionheart: another one almost EM. 2 attack short:
(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/twixy10/Lionheartwin.png)
And to me it looks like more than one screen issn't EM while it should be (Miracle and Morte for example). The damage kills Miracle before the healing starts, or am I wrong?
Post by: HeartNotes on April 07, 2011, 10:59:38 pm
Post by: frlaa on April 07, 2011, 11:42:26 pm
Post by: SnoWeb on April 08, 2011, 06:03:20 am
Post by: twixy10 on April 09, 2011, 12:53:01 pm
against Serket:
(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/twixy10/SekertEMwin.png)
Post by: SnoWeb on April 11, 2011, 08:01:28 am
here is an EM for the competition ;)You'll have to rewind your 1rst dune but yeah ... Good Job. I put it in the OP.
against Serket:
(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/twixy10/SekertEMwin.png)
Post by: twixy10 on April 11, 2011, 10:37:40 am
You'll have to rewind your 1rst dune but yeah ... Good Job. I put it in the OP.no you don't have to do that, the scorpion has Gravity Force/Pull on him due to pandemonium.
Post by: PlayerOa on April 11, 2011, 01:50:15 pm
here is an EM for the competition ;)You'll have to rewind your 1rst dune but yeah ... Good Job. I put it in the OP.
against Serket:
(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/twixy10/SekertEMwin.png)
Maybe I fail, but Serket's Scorpion have Gravity Pull.
I must start reading all posts.
:P
Post by: Onizuka on April 12, 2011, 01:26:23 am
(http://ploader.net/files/5229d8aabe84a78226d4ee12474beede.JPG)
Post by: Onizuka on April 12, 2011, 03:15:51 am
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on April 23, 2011, 03:09:14 am
Post by: Zeru on April 23, 2011, 01:16:55 pm
A lot of my losses come from thinking offense>defense, and that led to my downfall.Exactly! This deck is defensive.
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on April 29, 2011, 12:29:09 pm
Post by: Zubon on April 30, 2011, 11:28:52 pm
Out of about 20 games, I have had only 2 with more than two towers/pendulums to start. I have yet to have a game under 20 turns in which I have an Hourglass, Eternity, and Turtle Shield all appear, so PC priority has been more or less irrelevant. Of the games that have gone past 20 turns, 2 of them had no Hourglasses in the top 30 cards. I presume it is a bad run of luck, because people are reporting that this deck works, but it is enormously frustrating to play 10 games straight without a Shield coming up.
Post by: twixy10 on May 01, 2011, 12:01:28 am
Is my luck rotten or is this normal behavior for the deck:You just got bad luck ;)
Out of about 20 games, I have had only 2 with more than two towers/pendulums to start. I have yet to have a game under 20 turns in which I have an Hourglass, Eternity, and Turtle Shield all appear, so PC priority has been more or less irrelevant. Of the games that have gone past 20 turns, 2 of them had no Hourglasses in the top 30 cards. I presume it is a bad run of luck, because people are reporting that this deck works, but it is enormously frustrating to play 10 games straight without a Shield coming up.
Post by: Calindu on May 01, 2011, 03:03:23 pm
It is one of my favorite FG killer with Lone Stalker
Post by: zse on May 01, 2011, 07:21:36 pm
Best FG killer for me,CCYB just don't helps me but this...this is golden,funny,money maker,and with a good winning rate.Nice to hear that you like em both. 8)
It is one of my favorite FG killer with Lone Stalker
Post by: Boondock11 on June 15, 2011, 12:57:11 pm
Post by: Nemo on August 05, 2011, 11:31:23 am
Post by: Zeru on August 05, 2011, 03:15:27 pm
Post by: Artois on August 17, 2011, 11:36:38 am
However, when I tire of the basic strategy, I like to twist it up with this variation:
It appears to be less successful than the original EC, but it can be fun to play!
Post by: SnoWeb on August 17, 2011, 12:02:54 pm
- While you add sanctuary which is good against a few FGs (like decay or dark matter), you loose PC which is quite useful against a lot of other FG
- CP cost 1 :entropy while Blessing cost 2 :light. You loose one turn on the mark to play your combo.
- the lack of antimatter forbid you to bypass some shields. And upped dune + blessing always gives > 6HP => fail against gravity shield.
Post by: Artois on August 17, 2011, 12:51:46 pm
I had this idea a while ago, Artois. The disadvantages of using light in place of entropy are multiple:On the plus side, an early crusader with rewind/eternity can double your reverse ability, creating a lock on many FG's which is the key bonus of the light strategy.Yes the loss of PC is a nuisance, however the gain of Sanctuary makes Decay/dark Matter less troublesome
- While you add sanctuary which is good against a few FGs (like decay or dark matter), you loose PC which is quite useful against a lot of other FG
The extra point in cost doesnt really cause as much trouble as by the time the scorpion is in your hand a blessing is easy to apply
- CP cost 1 :entropy while Blessing cost 2 :light. You loose one turn on the mark to play your combo.
The gravity shield is certainly a pain!
- the lack of antimatter forbid you to bypass some shields. And upped dune + blessing always gives > 6HP => fail against gravity shield.
[/list]
Whilst the loss of AM healing is countered by the sanctuary and miracles... those miracles can be a life saver!
Post by: Conchobear on August 20, 2011, 11:12:06 pm
Post by: Kyura on October 06, 2011, 02:12:32 pm