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Elements the Game => Level 3 - Armory => Card Ideas and Art => Anvil Archive => Topic started by: ZephyrPhantom on January 30, 2011, 02:26:20 am

Title: Wish | Wish
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on January 30, 2011, 02:26:20 am
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd132880/elements_W3.png)
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd132879/elements_W3E.png)
NAME:
Wish
ELEMENT:
Light
COST:
3  :light
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Believe in yourself, and this card will give you strength.
NAME:
Wish
ELEMENT:
Light
COST:
2  :light
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:
 
TEXT:
Believe in yourself, and your wishes will come true.
ART:
mn_isla_girl  at http://media.photobucket.com/image/sunrise/mn_isla_girl/Cruise2/Cruise2078.jpg?o=13
IDEA:
Zblader, Hyroen (name)
NOTES:
If we're getting wet by the same tears, then let's just laugh.

Inspired by a friend who needed cheering up. Wish selects from a set of beneficial effects for the user. If you hope enough, a miracle will occur...
Unupped:
50% Heal for 10 Hp.
20% Draw 1 card.
15 % Heal for 10 Hp and add 1 Purify counter.
10% Summon a Crusader.
5% Miracle is cast (does not drain all your quanta).
Upped:
40% Heal for 10 HP.
20% Draw 1 Card.
20% Heal for 10 Hp and add 2 Purify counters.
10% Summon a Crusader.
5% A random Nymph is played. Its ability cost is now 4 :light.
5% Miracle is cast (does not drain all your quanta).
 
SERIES:
Title: Re: Uplifting Glow | Uplifting Glow
Post by: Hyroen on January 30, 2011, 02:28:39 am
It'll be funny when you're going for the EM via "Heal 10 HP" and you get a Miracle.

Aside, I like the card but it seems a little oddly named. Perhaps call it Wish?
Title: Re: Uplifting Glow | Uplifting Glow
Post by: joebob777 on January 30, 2011, 02:30:56 am
i vote no stacking due to the 30% chance of a miracle per turn at no cost to your light, and i also say raise the cost by 1 or 2 because a lot of the effects cost more than 2|1
Title: Re: Uplifting Glow | Uplifting Glow
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on January 30, 2011, 02:37:24 am
i vote no stacking due to the 30% chance of a miracle per turn at no cost to your light, and i also say raise the cost by 1 or 2 because a lot of the effects cost more than 2|1
.... it doesn't stack, only one event happens.  Also, most of the time you'll be healing or getting a Precog-like effect, and getting a crusader once every now and then.  The miracle or nymph appearing will only happen every 1 out of 20 games, and you can't predict when it happens.  The point of the card is to have something good happen on one of thsoe really bad days.

It'll be funny when you're going for the EM via "Heal 10 HP" and you get a Miracle.

Aside, I like the card but it seems a little oddly named. Perhaps call it Wish?
"Wish" sounds a lot better, now why didn't I think of that before? I'll change the card name to that as suggested, it fits better with the Miracle effect.
Title: Re: Uplifting Glow | Uplifting Glow
Post by: Ajit on January 30, 2011, 02:38:47 am
I like it, and Wish sounds good too.

...But dear goodness I'm not crazy about the cheesy card text :))
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: joebob777 on January 30, 2011, 03:02:02 am
1)50% Heal for 10 Hp. (1.5)
2)20% Draw 1 card.     (1.5)
3)15 % Heal for 10 Hp and add 1 Purify counter. (2.5)
4)10% Summon a Crusader.  (5)
5)5% Miracle is cast (does not drain all your quanta (15)

1)40% Heal for 10 HP. (1)
2)20% Draw 1 Card. (1)
3)20% Heal for 10 Hp and add 2 Purify counters. (2)
4)10% Summon a Crusader. (5)
5)5% A random Nymph is played. Its ability cost is now 4 . (6)
6)5% Miracle is cast (does not drain all your quanta). (12)

Unupped = 5
1) 5*1.5 = 7.5
2) 2*1.5 = 3
3) 1.5*2.5 = 3.75
4) 1*5 = 5
5) .5*15 = 7.5
add all up to get 26.75, divide by 5 for average of 5.35, rounded down to 5  
Upped = 4
1) 4*1 = 4
2) 2*1 = 2
3) 2*2 = 4
4) 1*5 = 5
5) .5*6 = 3
6) .5*12 = 6
added to make 24, divide by 6 to make 4all percentages were divided by 10 to make things easier

the heal cost i got by dividing heal card itself cost by 2 (3|2 / 2)
draw 1 card was mix of weakoned precog (1|.5) and hourglass ability cost (2|1) and rounded to nearest .5
the random nypmh was upped nymphs tears cost
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: Nepycros on January 30, 2011, 03:11:42 am
It's too bad this stuff doesn't work on the Oracle.
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: doublecross on January 30, 2011, 03:45:00 am
Very nice card.



However, I expect OldTrees will show up and average the costs of each possible effect and tell you it is too cheap.


[When he does, I will defend this gem of a card]
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: joebob777 on January 30, 2011, 03:46:45 am
if you read the above i have already said it is too cheap, go ahead and defend the gem, give me some fair logic and i might agree
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: doublecross on January 30, 2011, 03:54:16 am
Ok.



Some of the effects cause healing.

70% of the un-upped effects cause some sort of healing

65% of the upped effects cause some sort of healing

Of what is left, the effect is split between drawing a card and summoning a creature.




If what you need is healing, then the other 30|35 % of the effects are worthless.

Thus, if you need healing, and not a card, and not a creature, the average would be done with the healing effects at normal value, and the other effects at a cost of 0 (because they give no utility)



The same can be done with drawing a card and summoning a creature.




Your average is only valid if the user of the card, and any point in time, sees equal utility for every option.



Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: joebob777 on January 30, 2011, 03:57:24 am
well if by your logic the average changes on the persons need, does that mean that if i need more draws in one game then the cost should be lower and if i need more heals the next the cost should be higher
average is about a nice center, sure you might not need it all equally, but to put your arguement into play we need to find out the need and AVERAGE it out, finding out the need is impossible so a simple average of percentages is fine
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: doublecross on January 30, 2011, 04:00:05 am
The point I am making is that the average would be a fair cost if everyone needed every effect at every time. If even one effect is less useful (as will often be the case), then averaging in the prices for relatively useless effects will unfairly increase the price.


Going based one something like 80% of the average would be much closer to being fair.
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: joebob777 on January 30, 2011, 04:03:43 am
and i am saying that we cant find out the need until it gets itnto the game, if it gets into it, for now, out of the game, we cant include that factor
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: doublecross on January 30, 2011, 04:14:58 am
We can actually. The "need" will be based on any given match. We can say right now that not every match would have use for every possible effect at every time.   
You don't price cards based one the most useful situation that card could ever be in ever. You price it based on normal circumstances. Normal match circumstances don't have a need for all those effects at every time during the match.


Here is one way that utility will tend to decrease for one effect as it increases for another, showing that they are unlikely to both be full value (and thus appropriate to be counted as full value in the calculation)

A creature would be more useful earlier, because it does damage every turn.
Miracle would be more useful towards the end, because it is likely to heal more health.


By this logic, in any calculation of cost, at least one of the two is obviously below full utility, and should have a modifier.  This is just one example of why an appropriate cost is below that of the average cost of every ability.
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: joebob777 on January 30, 2011, 04:17:44 am
your logic makes sense actually, so should 2-4 random effects be -1 cost, 5-7 be -2, and 8+ be -3, does that seem fair?
i think that set percentages should also be a factor in determining cost, like this card
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: doublecross on January 30, 2011, 04:24:56 am
Well, a set numerical deduction doesn't make sense either. I much prefer a percentage.

Also, if you followed my logic there, then this part should also make sense.
The deduction doesn't need to be based on the number of effects, but rather the number of types of effects.
All healing can be one.  All summoning can be one (I know different creatures have different utility, but that, all things considered, is minor right now). All drawing can be one.       

The reason for breaking based on classes of effect and not just number of effects is that, if one healing will be useful, so will another, so they don't need to both subtract. [If you were doing a super detailed analysis (as I do in my classes. I study game theory.) you would have to make a distinction between different amounts of healing, because healing 20 is less useful if you are at 90.... but that is not necessary right now]


Sorry. That is getting away from the point. This point is that, unless both effects are always useful, there should be a cost that is mildly less than just the average cost.   What that deduction is, can't be done by a simple calculation.

your logic makes sense actually, so should 2-4 random effects be -1 cost, 5-7 be -2, and 8+ be -3, does that seem fair?
i think that set percentages should also be a factor in determining cost, like this card

I would say that, although mathematically, it won't always work, most of the time, that will be fair.    Would you mind showing OldTrees this post? Maybe this may finally convince him.
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: joebob777 on January 30, 2011, 04:27:55 am
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20498.new.html#new
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: Hyroen on January 30, 2011, 04:28:30 am
While I agree with you doublecross that this has to have a reduced cost for its situational effects, the issue here is that they are all beneficial no matter how you look at it and you --can-- time when you play the card.

It's not hurting you, it's not poisoning you, heck it's not even slowing you down (much), and at a cost of 2 :light | 1 :light, you can pretty much splash this in anywhere and it's a good addition.

If anything I'd put it up to 3 :light | 2 :light solely because of this fact: it has a:

I think that cost changes would do it good.
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: doublecross on January 30, 2011, 04:31:01 am
I should have clarified. My argument was not that the current cost was appropriate (it was an error not saying that).

My argument is that the cost should be lower than the approach of a pure average suggests.

3|2 seems fine.
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: joebob777 on January 30, 2011, 04:32:46 am
i'll agree with 3|2 due to the randomness of need
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: Hyroen on January 30, 2011, 04:33:15 am
I love it when everyone agrees c:
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: joebob777 on January 30, 2011, 04:34:38 am
doublecross, and anyone else who would like to join, lets take our discussion about how randomness should affect new cards to the link 5 posts above
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: doublecross on January 30, 2011, 04:36:21 am
Sure. However, people in that thread should really read what was posted here.
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on January 30, 2011, 05:19:51 am
doublecross, and anyone else who would like to join, lets take our discussion about how randomness should affect new cards to the link 5 posts above
Okay, enough debating and creating a new Pseudo-CCC.

Card Updated:
Cost Raised to 3  :light | 2  :light
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: doublecross on January 30, 2011, 05:21:51 am
I wouldn't necessarily call that shameless advertising...
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: joebob777 on January 30, 2011, 05:41:16 am
we have decided that the miracle without the drain all light quantum makes this card 4|3
if you would like to see exactly how http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20498.new.html#new
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: Ekki on February 08, 2011, 02:19:32 pm
we have decided that the miracle without the drain all light quantum makes this card 4|3
if you would like to see exactly how http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20498.new.html#new
lol, after so much discussion... Moar discussion.

I agree it should cost 4|3. I mean, it's a mid game card (all the effects are good when you have 50 hp or so), and all the effects are benefical. What maybe makes some doubts is Holy light. You're having a 50%|40% of casting that, which isn't that good... But I guess it's balanced by the other effects (miracle without drain) and the fact that you could anyways have a healing card in your hand/the field that could save you if you don't get what you need. Remember Light/Life synergy.

BTW, the randomness stuff can be discussed in another thread, but the consequences and practic balance of the card belong here.
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: HeartNotes on March 03, 2011, 03:15:30 am
I don't mind the random effects, but when I saw this in the poll, I was confused and had to come here and look at the spoiler to make sense of the card... that's not good.

There should be some clue as to the random effects. Perhaps something like "and something good might happen" at the end would be more explicit.
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: Funkyvenom on March 10, 2011, 04:07:08 am
nice card! it would be great for light.
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: johannhowitzer on April 02, 2011, 07:44:13 pm
I'm not sure I like the random aspect in Light... but you get points for reminding me of Final Fantasy Tactics.
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on May 10, 2011, 08:13:26 pm
What needs to be done to make this card more interesting/viable in the polls?
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: miggui on July 07, 2011, 01:39:33 am
1)50% Heal for 10 Hp. (1.5)
2)20% Draw 1 card.     (1.5)
3)15 % Heal for 10 Hp and add 1 Purify counter. (2.5)
4)10% Summon a Crusader.  (5)
5)5% Miracle is cast (does not drain all your quanta (15)

1)40% Heal for 10 HP. (1)
2)20% Draw 1 Card. (1)
3)20% Heal for 10 Hp and add 2 Purify counters. (2)
4)10% Summon a Crusader. (5)
5)5% A random Nymph is played. Its ability cost is now 4 . (6)
6)5% Miracle is cast (does not drain all your quanta). (12)

Unupped = 5
1) 5*1.5 = 7.5
2) 2*1.5 = 3
3) 1.5*2.5 = 3.75
4) 1*5 = 5
5) .5*15 = 7.5
add all up to get 26.75, divide by 5 for average of 5.35, rounded down to 5  
Upped = 4
1) 4*1 = 4
2) 2*1 = 2
3) 2*2 = 4
4) 1*5 = 5
5) .5*6 = 3
6) .5*12 = 6
added to make 24, divide by 6 to make 4all percentages were divided by 10 to make things easier

the heal cost i got by dividing heal card itself cost by 2 (3|2 / 2)
draw 1 card was mix of weakoned precog (1|.5) and hourglass ability cost (2|1) and rounded to nearest .5
the random nypmh was upped nymphs tears cost
since you calculated the percentages, the denominator is wrong. the correct formula would be (5*1.5+2*1.5+1.5*2.5+1*5+.5*15)/10, making it a 2.65 cost card, which rounds up to 3 :light. the upgraded version would be a 2.4 cost card, rounded down to 2 :light. the denominator should be 10 because you're doing weighted average of percentages and dividing by 10 "to make things easier".

to prove that I'm right, take this simple example: there are 4 apples and 1 orange in a box. apples cost $0.50 and oranges cost $0.75. the average cost of a fruit from the box is, in percentages, (80*0.5+20*0,75)/100 or, in percentages divided by 10, (8*0.5+2*0,75)/10. that is, $0.55. using your formula, however, we don't get to 0.55: (8*0.5+2*0.75)/2 = $2.75.

since miracle doesn't consume the mana pool as the original, maybe the cost should be increased, but it's too rare to get it. besides, due to random, it should be dropped. so, 3|2 sounds good to me, since lower than that would be too much :)

I'm sorry if I sound pedantic, I can't help it :P
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: Toxx on August 17, 2011, 06:34:05 pm
Very nice card I like the entire theme of it, ever thought of making it into a permanent ?
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: maverixk on August 17, 2011, 10:41:39 pm
Very nice card I like the entire theme of it, ever thought of making it into a permanent ?
A wishing well!  :water/ :light duo!
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on August 25, 2011, 04:06:09 pm
Very nice card I like the entire theme of it, ever thought of making it into a permanent ?
A wishing well!  :water/ :light duo!
Might be interesting to make if Wish gets into the game first. ;)

Thanks to all that have voted this card into the Armory! Proving once more that randomness isn't always about Entropy.   8)
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: pancosis on August 30, 2011, 06:04:40 am
id make it cost more, like 5 :light and 4 :light
also the text is overly cheesy
but i like the card
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: Zerker on August 31, 2011, 12:56:38 am
i love the card i want to have it random Miracle FTW  :P would be a fun deck sometime owning sometimes pretty bad but still fun
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: Chapuz on September 30, 2011, 04:53:23 am
I like it... much
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: BluexLightning on October 08, 2011, 05:21:44 pm
I think this would make more sense in entropy, as it is chaos.. I guess it does fit into a light deck in a row, but light is not as luck based..
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: pancosis on October 08, 2011, 08:27:05 pm
I think this would make more sense in entropy, as it is chaos.. I guess it does fit into a light deck in a row, but light is not as luck based..
they made it specifically so light had a luck based card
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: MartyrX on October 16, 2011, 05:24:33 am
Awesome Card and that is enough said
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: Ningo67 on March 04, 2013, 08:42:19 pm
OMG i love this card so much one of the best i have ever seen.Its soo cool because u might get like a miracle or just heal for 10 hp it has a lot of randomness which is similar to entropy i like it a lot i want it in the game u did a very good job on this  ;)
Title: Re: Wish | Wish
Post by: skyironsword on March 20, 2013, 09:30:37 pm
... Purple nymph with light cost? I want!
blarg: