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Fallower

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Re: Water Golem | Ice Golem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5937.msg158229#msg158229
« Reply #84 on: September 14, 2010, 05:33:06 am »
Zanz will change it anyway if he wants to, so it doesn't matter. :D
All cards that made it in have been changed so far.

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: Water Golem | Ice Golem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5937.msg158457#msg158457
« Reply #85 on: September 14, 2010, 05:16:57 pm »
Nothing in the Armory should need to be changed to get into the game.
Facepalm.

So apparently you all think that getting votes from a community of players means your card is fit for the game. Well clearly that is the disconnect.

Clearly getting voted this far means your card is pretty darn good -- lots of players with experience in this game and good ideas about game balance voted it up. But refusing to tweak the card further on that basis is just silly.

This is a good card. It gives "freeze" spells a new use. It is a revivable Water creature. It plays on the change between an upgraded and non-upgraded card. It makes some sense for there to be a cyclic ability of this card to revive another of its kind by using freeze. But making that freeze spell too powerful is simply a case of overkill and bad game balance. If there is a single most common symptom of late-stage game development, when new features in an old game indicate that the game is washed up, it is the design of abilities / skills / effects / characters that incorporate too many disparate ideas into one unit. Good design enables as many individual parts to act uniquely so that their combination generates game strategy; and at a certain point the game is just "full." I don't think that's the case with Elements, but the same principle should apply.

The real advantage to having an Ice Golem with a nominal freezing ability (like freeze for 1 turn) is that it can't really be used offensively. However, it can be used to generate more Ice Golems -- and THAT is the new concept of the card, which should be seized. There is just no reason whatsoever to allow the card an offensive creature control skill that acts in addition to its high attack power and near-invincibility. You might argue that there is a "trade-off" because it damages itself in using the ability, but not only is that close to irrelevant in a freeze deck (which is where you'd find this card) but it also is less valid because individual creature health is a very minor asset in the style of this game. Most decks rely on many creatures, and many decks can revive them or boost their health as well. And here you've actually given a new element the ability to revive a creature, too -- that being Water by using freeze on a Water Golem.

Once more: I like your card idea. It does the most essential thing for a new addition to Elements. It introduces a new concept in a subtle and clever way. And the card itself is cool. That being said, the card's viability within the larger context of the game is thrown slightly by the too-powerful freezing ability. I would change it.

Krahhl

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Re: Water Golem | Ice Golem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5937.msg158523#msg158523
« Reply #86 on: September 14, 2010, 07:03:37 pm »
I guess I didn't make it clear enough with context.

Nothing in the Armory should need to be changed by players to get into the game.

If Zanz likes the basic idea, he will make the changes he thinks are necessary.


The current design has been voted here as it is. Argue what you will, but I doubt Bloodshadow will listen. And honestly, he won't lose anything by not listening.

That's not to say I disagree with your suggested change; I'm actually going to remain neutral on it since my experience with card balance is limited. I'm simply arguing with your idea that the card needs to be changed.

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: Water Golem | Ice Golem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5937.msg158561#msg158561
« Reply #87 on: September 14, 2010, 07:54:10 pm »
I guess I didn't make it clear enough with context.

Nothing in the Armory should need to be changed by players to get into the game.

If Zanz likes the basic idea, he will make the changes he thinks are necessary.


The current design has been voted here as it is. Argue what you will, but I doubt Bloodshadow will listen. And honestly, he won't lose anything by not listening.

That's not to say I disagree with your suggested change; I'm actually going to remain neutral on it since my experience with card balance is limited. I'm simply arguing with your idea that the card needs to be changed.
Perhaps I should clarify ... of course the card doesn't "need" to be changed. It has every right to be here. It's just my opinion that it would be a better card if it were changed, that's all. I would have made the same comment before the card was voted here if I had seen it earlier.

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Re: Water Golem | Ice Golem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5937.msg158569#msg158569
« Reply #88 on: September 14, 2010, 08:06:04 pm »
It's just my opinion that it would be a better card if it were changed, that's all.
Then we agree; it is just your opinion.

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Re: Water Golem | Ice Golem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5937.msg158605#msg158605
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2010, 08:46:53 pm »
It's just my opinion that it would be a better card if it were changed, that's all.
Then we agree; it is just your opinion.
Just my reasoned, explained and justified opinion. Yep.

Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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Re: Water Golem | Ice Golem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5937.msg158849#msg158849
« Reply #90 on: September 15, 2010, 03:03:49 am »
This is the Armory. Cards here should have all been FINALIZED. In fact, I now think that there should be a rule to prevent all cards in the Armory from being changed. If the majority of the community agrees that this card needs to be changed, then this card should not be in the Armory. If changes were needed, then they should have been made before this card is moved into the Armory; the very fact that this card is HERE means that it does NOT need ANY more changes at all.

Your tone irritates me. You talk as though you know everything, but in reality you do not even know how the system works.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: Water Golem | Ice Golem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5937.msg158862#msg158862
« Reply #91 on: September 15, 2010, 03:34:29 am »
This is the Armory. Cards here should have all been FINALIZED. In fact, I now think that there should be a rule to prevent all cards in the Armory from being changed. If the majority of the community agrees that this card needs to be changed, then this card should not be in the Armory. If changes were needed, then they should have been made before this card is moved into the Armory; the very fact that this card is HERE means that it does NOT need ANY more changes at all.

Your tone irritates me. You talk as though you know everything, but in reality you do not even know how the system works.
Meh. There's no need for a long response. Just two points:

1) I can tell you from experience that no game element should ever be above scrutiny or immune to a potential re-design, even after it's been implemented the game itself. Regardless of the number of votes garnered by this community or anyone else.

2) It is a well-known bylaw of good game design that new features should either replace old features or stand beside them, but never make them obsolete. I believe your card makes Arctic Squid obsolete and I've not received any response to that concern, whether that you disagree and don't think it makes Arctic Squid obsolete or whether that you don't think it matters that it makes Arctic Squid obsolete for whatever reason. That's unfortunate, because resolving the conversation one way or another (even if your card didn't change at all) would have been beneficial.

Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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Re: Water Golem | Ice Golem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5937.msg158864#msg158864
« Reply #92 on: September 15, 2010, 03:41:33 am »
Quote
I've not received any response to that concern
Sigh...

Quote
But frankly, the card needs improvement to get past this level and into the game
In case you don't know, the Armory is the highest level any card idea can get to. Even if a card gets into the Armory, there is ZERO guarantee that it will get into the game. Any cards that get into the game are automatically put into the Reliquary, regardless of whether it's in the Smithy, Crucible, Forge, or Armory. No cards can advance beyond the Armory, unless Zanz happens to like that card and implements it.

I'm irritated when people think their opinions are the objective truth. To top it off, you act as though you know everything, when you don't even know how the system works. Or it could be that I'm just depressed these days, and perceive everything as either indifferent or hostile :-\ ;)

Quote
And how many "times more powerful" is that ability when the opponent has one single creature? Both Ice Golem and Arctic Squid could freeze it forever. So your metric is completely off.
How often do you see your opponent with a single creature?

That aside, a single Squid/Octopus can freeze one creature forever if it only uses its ability every 3/4 turns. On the other hand, a single Golem CANNOT freeze one creature forever: you'll need to use the ability every turn, and after three turns the Golem dies with no ways to revive it unless you have another Golem or a Freeze spell. Nerfing this card to a 1-turn freeze would make it very weak IMO.

Quote
Consider the arguments I've made and if you disagree, get a sense of why you disagree. Right now it sounds like the only salient reason is that the card has just been this way so long that it can no longer change.
Your arguments, and my responses:

- This card needs improvement: I happen to think that this card is perfectly fine right now. I don't see the need to change.

- Nerf the freeze to 1 turn only: I think this would make the card underpowered. I've explained above.

- This would make Squid obsolete: This card certainly isn't overpowered, is it? If that's the case, then the Squid is underpowered and needs to be buffed. I think making it a non-rare would be good. And again, in my above argument I think this wouldn't replace Squid at all.

- This shouldn't have an ability: As I've said before, this card is not intended as a Water version of Phoenix. Sure, they're both hard to kill, but the Golem is harder to revive, and it dies more easily by using its own ability. The concepts are similar but not the same.

If I want to change this card, I would certainly do it. However, I am hesitant to recklessly change a card in the Armory.
How could you have missed such a large post?
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Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: Water Golem | Ice Golem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5937.msg158887#msg158887
« Reply #93 on: September 15, 2010, 04:45:56 am »
That aside, a single Squid/Octopus can freeze one creature forever if it only uses its ability every 3/4 turns. On the other hand, a single Golem CANNOT freeze one creature forever: you'll need to use the ability every turn, and after three turns the Golem dies with no ways to revive it unless you have another Golem or a Freeze spell. Nerfing this card to a 1-turn freeze would make it very weak IMO.
- This would make Squid obsolete: This card certainly isn't overpowered, is it? If that's the case, then the Squid is underpowered and needs to be buffed. I think making it a non-rare would be good. And again, in my above argument I think this wouldn't replace Squid at all.

Let's consider the use cases for both the Squid and your Golem. In both cases, the "real" use, which can be defined as the most common, standard use of either card, will be in a freezing deck.

In the case of the Squid, the deck will usually have many freezes and many Squids, and the basic purpose of the deck is to stall the opponent with creature control until he either decks out or more powerful forces can be summoned to defeat him (depends a bit on the style of the deck). Once two or three Squids are out, they can singlehandedly keep 10-12 creatures in check with their freezing. That is their purpose; in every other way Squid is a fairly useless card.

Now consider Golem. In what we might call an "Ice Golem" deck, you'd have several Ice Golems and several Freeze spells. The focus of the deck in this case is NOT creature control, but in fact regenerating offense (much like a Phoenix deck). Killing the Ice Golems with Fire Bolts (just for example) is quite useless because a single Freeze spell, or a single use of another Golem's ability, will revive the first Golem immediately. As the Golems have 6 attack power, this deck is clearly meant to kill the opponent outright with offense.

Another version of the Golem deck would be akin to a Shrieker rush deck, only with Water Golems. The relatively cheap Water Golems come out quickly and are frozen into powerful offensive weapons, also quickly, thereby outstripping the opponent.

--

The reason Elements is a good game is game balance. The fact that a stall deck like the Squid deck, a regenerating offense deck like the Phoenix / Ice Golem deck, and a creature-growth-rush deck like Shrieker/Water Golem are ALL effective is based on the related fact that they each have weaknesses. Therefore it is imperative that you don't create a card that spans the gap and has multiple advantages ... because suddenly you create a deck that is "the best." Any time there is a "best" deck, the game has lost its balance.

In my view, if you leave Ice Golem unchanged, then an Ice Golem deck will be too strong. It will be a creature rush deck with regeneration AND creature control, all within the same color. Not at all fair. That's the real problem in my book. And I actually think the concept of Ice Golem having a freeze ability is not that bad, and makes sense, since it's integral to the functionality of the card itself to morph forms by freezing. But that freeze ability should be used to trigger that metric and not to endow the deck with incredibly powerful creature control. After all, with just 3 Ice Golems in play you could basically stop all your opponents' creatures forever if the freeze ability lasted two turns, except for VERY few decks with creature spamming.

Anyway that's the way I see it.

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Re: Water Golem | Ice Golem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5937.msg158899#msg158899
« Reply #94 on: September 15, 2010, 05:03:10 am »
With quintessence now that strategy is really useless IMO. Thats why arctic squid isn't even used that much nowadays.

 Anyway, zanz has modified all cards he chose so far, so I doubt this card would escape. ><

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: Water Golem | Ice Golem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5937.msg158900#msg158900
« Reply #95 on: September 15, 2010, 05:10:50 am »
Hm, just had a random thought: What if you changed Ice Golem's ability so that it didn't have freeze, but targeting it with freeze gave it a buff ?

 

blarg: