Water Golem | Ice Golem

[Ant-n-ero]

yer a 1 turn freeze would be better imo, you could call it 'chill' or something...

[Bloodshadow]

I think 1-turn freeze would make it too weak, since every time Ice Golem uses its ability it permanently loses 1 HP.

[Sir Valimont]

I think 1-turn freeze would make it too weak, since every time Ice Golem uses its ability it permanently loses 1 HP.

It is not a permanent loss since it doesn't die when it loses all its HP but rather reverts to a Water Golem.

[Fallower]

Mmm so many people complaining again.
Why nerf it just because it makes another creature more useless (than it already is).
Arctic squid can help to turn water golems back into ice golems too. All the ice golem does is save your quints for the squids. o.o

[Sir Valimont]

Mmm so many people complaining again.
Why nerf it just because it makes another creature more useless (than it already is).
Arctic squid can help to turn water golems back into ice golems too. All the ice golem does is save your quints for the squids. o.o

A basic rule of good design is not to render cards obsolete by creating new ones. There are many reasons for this, some basic and some complex. Simply put, the strength of a game overall is in the versatility and the parity of differing choices that can be made in the game: there have to be equal but different choices that enable players to compete in an enticing way. Creating cards that surpass others is the first step toward making some of these choices outright better than others -- and thereby upsetting the balance of the game completely.

Making Ice Golem able to freeze another creature for a single turn is NOT a nerf. It is a change in the design of a card that doesn't exist, so that the card is better. The card is still intriguing, useful, unique, and possibly still too powerful.

[Fallower]

Hmm I guess you're right, but it gets underpowered after your change. What I like is mainly the concept that the skill can be used a limited number of times before it dies. But by changing it, doesn't arctic squid now completely outshadow it? An arctic squid can permanently freeze 4 creatures at once, with a one turn freeze this only manages to freeze one creature at a time, and even DIES after freezing that creature a few times.

[Sir Valimont]

Hmm I guess you're right, but it gets underpowered after your change. What I like is mainly the concept that the skill can be used a limited number of times before it dies. But by changing it, doesn't arctic squid now completely outshadow it? An arctic squid can permanently freeze 4 creatures at once, with a one turn freeze this only manages to freeze one creature at a time, and even DIES after freezing that creature a few times.

Well to me the difference is that Arctic Squid is a creature that is ONLY useful because of its skill -- it's too weak to be an effective battle monster -- whereas Ice Golem is a great battle monster PLUS it has a useful skill. It's only logical that a creature that doesn't specialize in a skill should be less good at it than the Squid.

The "specialty" of Ice Golem, after all, is basically that it's invincible because it turns into something else when it dies. It's a lot like Phoenix in that sense -- and it's not like Phoenix ALSO has a special ability (like growth or something).

Also, let's not forget the practical context of the Golem. Most likely it's going to be used in a Water deck that has a lot of freezes, so even if it uses up its freezes and gets killed, it can probably just be re-frozen again anyway. Yes that is an inconvenience, but certainly still an advantage.

EDITED TO ADD:

The more I think about it, I think Ice Golem shouldn't be able to freeze targets at all. It's already basically a Phoenix for Water.

[Fallower]

Sooo it doesn't need a skill after all, since the skill is now detrimental to it.
Lets face it that the card is flawed, the attack or the skill should be changed to make it better. xD

LOL at your edit. The skill should just be changed to something more different I guess, instead of making it another phoenix.

[Bloodshadow]

The more I think about it, I think Ice Golem shouldn't be able to freeze targets at all. It's already basically a Phoenix for Water.

That would make the card completely different. To quote Kael Hate:

This card has been voted to this level based on this version as is

In other words, this card got into the Armory when it still has Freeze. If I get rid of the Freeze, then it might not have gotten into the Armory.

Also, if I remove the Freeze, then Ice Golem can no longer convert other Water Golems to Ice Golem; that is not what I wanted with this card. This card is intended to be more than just a Water version of Phoenix.

And keep in mind that the Squid's ability is 1.5 to 2 times more powerful than the Golem's.

[Sir Valimont]

In other words, this card got into the Armory when it still has Freeze. If I get rid of the Freeze, then it might not have gotten into the Armory.

Also, if I remove the Freeze, then Ice Golem can no longer convert other Water Golems to Ice Golem; that is not what I wanted with this card. This card is intended to be more than just a Water version of Phoenix.

And keep in mind that the Squid's ability is 1.5 to 2 times more powerful than the Golem's.

And how many "times more powerful" is that ability when the opponent has one single creature? Both Ice Golem and Arctic Squid could freeze it forever. So your metric is completely off. The ability to freeze something at all is leagues and bounds better than not having the ability; whether that ability lasts 1 turn or 3 makes a difference, yes, but not nearly to the extent that you imply.

I certainly cannot vouch for what has or hasn't been "voted" places. But frankly, the card needs improvement to get past this level and into the game ... so clearly there still are changes to be made. I make my comments from a perspective of game balance, and not whether or not I think the card is "cool." And I DO think the card is QUITE cool. So much so that this is the only card idea I've bothered to comment on (that I haven't specifically been asked to give advice on).

My point is that you need to divorce yourself from a fixed impression of what this card should be if that comes at the expense of improving it. Consider the arguments I've made and if you disagree, get a sense of why you disagree. Right now it sounds like the only salient reason is that the card has just been this way so long that it can no longer change. But that is of course not the case!

[Bloodshadow]

But frankly, the card needs improvement to get past this level and into the game

In case you don't know, the Armory is the highest level any card idea can get to. Even if a card gets into the Armory, there is ZERO guarantee that it will get into the game. Any cards that get into the game are automatically put into the Reliquary, regardless of whether it's in the Smithy, Crucible, Forge, or Armory. No cards can advance beyond the Armory, unless Zanz happens to like that card and implements it.

I'm irritated when people think their opinions are the objective truth. To top it off, you act as though you know everything, when you don't even know how the system works. Or it could be that I'm just depressed these days, and perceive everything as either indifferent or hostile

And how many "times more powerful" is that ability when the opponent has one single creature? Both Ice Golem and Arctic Squid could freeze it forever. So your metric is completely off.

How often do you see your opponent with a single creature?

That aside, a single Squid/Octopus can freeze one creature forever if it only uses its ability every 3/4 turns. On the other hand, a single Golem CANNOT freeze one creature forever: you'll need to use the ability every turn, and after three turns the Golem dies with no ways to revive it unless you have another Golem or a Freeze spell. Nerfing this card to a 1-turn freeze would make it very weak IMO.

Consider the arguments I've made and if you disagree, get a sense of why you disagree. Right now it sounds like the only salient reason is that the card has just been this way so long that it can no longer change.

Your arguments, and my responses:

- This card needs improvement: I happen to think that this card is perfectly fine right now. I don't see the need to change.

- Nerf the freeze to 1 turn only: I think this would make the card underpowered. I've explained above.

- This would make Squid obsolete: This card certainly isn't overpowered, is it? If that's the case, then the Squid is underpowered and needs to be buffed. I think making it a non-rare would be good. And again, in my above argument I think this wouldn't replace Squid at all.

- This shouldn't have an ability: As I've said before, this card is not intended as a Water version of Phoenix. Sure, they're both hard to kill, but the Golem is harder to revive, and it dies more easily by using its own ability. The concepts are similar but not the same.

If I want to change this card, I would certainly do it. However, I am hesitant to recklessly change a card in the Armory.

[Krahhl]

Nothing in the Armory should need to be changed to get into the game. If Zanz likes a design, he will make his own changes based on his opinion. This is Bloodshadow's card, and it has gotten to the Armory the way it is now, so he can keep it how he wants.

But frankly, the card needs improvement to get past this level and into the game ... so clearly there still are changes to be made.

This isn't true. It may be your opinion, but you can't say it as a fact. And there is no guarantee that it will get into the game anyway.