Harpy | Harpy

[Scaredgirl]

Did you see the same idea by Hyroen? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14206.html
 Unupped version is identical.

I like this Harpy theme suggested by vrt, but the fact is that Hyroen was the first with the idea of this mechanic, which means that if this idea some day makes it to the game, Hyroen will probably get credit for it because he was first. I don't know if you care about that stuff, but I'm saying just in case so there won't be any problems or misunderstandings later.

Our card idea section is starting to get so big that it's more and more difficult to come up with unique ideas.

[Daxx]

Did you see the same idea by Hyroen? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14206.html
 Unupped version is identical.

I didn't. As you know, I submitted this after having the idea in chat. But yes, Hyroen already pimped his variation earlier in the thread. It's not the same, though - this is darkness whereas his is air, and his version uses the X+1 mechanic which I'm staying away from.

I like this Harpy theme suggested by vrt, but the fact is that Hyroen was the first with the idea of this mechanic, which means that if this idea some day makes it to the game, Hyroen will probably get credit for it because he was first. I don't know if you care about that stuff, but I'm saying just in case so there won't be any problems or misunderstandings later.

I was under the impression that Zanz decides who gets credit. After all, I've submitted an idea which was later implemented into the game, but I never got any credit for that because Zanz never confirmed that it was my idea that inspired him.

Besides which, I think my idea is much better than Hyroen's formulation; whether it's sufficiently different for your personal tastes is your own opinion. After all, whoever heard of Alfred Russel Wallace?

[Drobbit]

Maybe you could add Hyroen at the Idea's section. Is my suggestion for a good solution to avoid future discussions.  Of course that your cards are different, but both use the same basics that where introduced by Hyroen (as it seems).

Anyway, I'll be glad if this concept ever comes into the game.

EDIT: I don't pretend to say that you stole the idea. I trust in your honesty.

[Daxx]

Yeah, I'm more interested in getting the idea into the game than in getting the credit. If there's a "frequently suggested ideas" thread it should probably go in there though.

EDIT: vrt's art is done! Many thanks to him, the card looks fantastic now!

[Scaredgirl]

Did you see the same idea by Hyroen? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14206.html
 Unupped version is identical.

I didn't. As you know, I submitted this after having the idea in chat. But yes, Hyroen already pimped his variation earlier in the thread. It's not the same, though - this is darkness whereas his is air, and his version uses the X+1 mechanic which I'm staying away from.

I like this Harpy theme suggested by vrt, but the fact is that Hyroen was the first with the idea of this mechanic, which means that if this idea some day makes it to the game, Hyroen will probably get credit for it because he was first. I don't know if you care about that stuff, but I'm saying just in case so there won't be any problems or misunderstandings later.

I was under the impression that Zanz decides who gets credit. After all, I've submitted an idea which was later implemented into the game, but I never got any credit for that because Zanz never confirmed that it was my idea that inspired him.

Besides which, I think my idea is much better than Hyroen's formulation; whether it's sufficiently different for your personal tastes is your own opinion. After all, whoever heard of Alfred Russel Wallace?

I didn't imply that you stole the idea. It's clear that you didn't. But that's not the point here because if I independently come up with the formula for DNA, that doesn't make me the person who came up with DNA, because others have done it before me. The fact is that your suggestion is mechanically the same card. I mean the unupped version is identical. I find it weird that we need to even think about whether or not the ideas are the same when they are identical. Different element, theme or art doesn't make any difference when we are talking about game mechanics, which is what these card ideas are about.

I think it's very important to protect earlier ideas so that if you were the first one to suggest a certain mechanic, you will get the credit if that mechanic inspires Zanz enough so that he makes a card like that. I think it would be very unfair if people were allowed to submit identical ideas only with some minor changes like different element or art. The first person with the idea should be respected for being first, even if you think your version is better.

I'll have to talk to Card Curators about this. We might have to make a new rule to prevent "double-posting" because the bigger the idea section gets, the more of these situations we will have.

Current system is that Zanz doesn't really decide who gets credit. What we do is we ask Zanz whether or not some card inspired him. If a card was a source of inspiration, it gets to go to Reliquary, if not, it stays where it is. I don't know what your previous idea was, but looks like it wasn't an inspiration, so no Reliquary.

[Daxx]

I disagree with you on some minor points; I believe that the element of a card does make a difference mechanically in this case (you can run this with nightmare in a mono-deck), and I believe it's clear that there's a difference between the two ideas. But I guess that's always going to be a matter of individual opinion.

I've put my thoughts on what to do with similar ideas in your thread in the Card Curators' section.

For reference, my previous card was Plague Marshes (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,2701.msg25885.html), a card which was submitted for the Shield Design Competition waaay back when. Some time later Zanz introduced Thorn Shield. There's some discussion about it here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,6851.msg155835#msg155835). I don't believe we ever got an answer from Zanz as to whether it inspired him or not.
Yes I recognise the irony that I am now arguing that being in a different element makes a difference

[Scaredgirl]

I disagree with you on some minor points; I believe that the element of a card does make a difference mechanically in this case (you can run this with nightmare in a mono-deck), and I believe it's clear that there's a difference between the two ideas. But I guess that's always going to be a matter of individual opinion.

Using that logic, I could make 12 of these cards, one per every non- element  and 'other', and call them all unique. Changing elements doesn't change the card mechanics. Only thing that changes is what kind of synergies the card has with other cards of its element.

"Individual opinion" might come to play when talking about those upped versions, but the unupped ones are identical so no opinions are needed. Everyone can see that it's the same effect, only different element.

But yeah.. this is getting off-topic. Together with Card Curators, we'll try to come up with a good solution for this Reliquary business. Optimal solution would of course be if both parties got credit: the person(s) who first had the idea, and the person who resurrected it.


Art looks great. I like the dark blue background.

[Daxx]

Only thing that changes is what kind of synergies the card has with other cards of its element.

That's pretty important when you consider that this card is essentially designed with its synergy with nightmare in mind. If this were any other element they couldn't be run as a combo in a mono-deck. IMO, considering the element you put a card in is a significant part of the design process. After all, you wouldn't suggest a card like catapult in an element like Life or Aether.

Also I feel like this card's mechanic fits better in Darkness than it does in Air. But that again is personal opinion.

[Drobbit]

The very important think IMHO is that the concept comes into the game. Both shall appear in the credit as one started the idea of the concept and the other applyed it to a new card.

[Scaredgirl]

Only thing that changes is what kind of synergies the card has with other cards of its element.

That's pretty important when you consider that this card is essentially designed with its synergy with nightmare in mind. If this were any other element they couldn't be run as a combo in a mono-deck. IMO, considering the element you put a card in is a significant part of the design process. After all, you wouldn't suggest a card like catapult in an element like Life or Aether.

Also I feel like this card's mechanic fits better in Darkness than it does in Air. But that again is personal opinion.

I'm not talking about which idea is better. That's a whole different topic. This was about similarities between the two ideas, and what we should do when this kind of situation happens, because the bigger the Vault gets, the more carbon-copy ideas we will see.

Like I said, using your logic, I could make 12 "unique" cards by copy-pasting the description and changing card backs. It's kind of like saying that all Pillars are unique because they are from different elements.
 
What kind of bothers me is that you seem to give Hyroen zero credit over his idea simply because you think your idea is better. Instead you are trying desperately to claim that they are totally different ideas, when they clearly are not. Identical mechanics but from different elements. I am a firm believer in giving credit to people who came up with the idea first, because otherwise I could just reuse any idea from the Crucible archives and claim it my own.

If I were you, I would at least mention in the first topic that the same exact mechanics were used in a earlier idea by Hyroen, and post a link to that topic. That's the right thing to do. Other option, like we talked about on the private forums, is to somehow "merge" the the idea topics so that both get credit and nobody will feel like their idea was stolen.

[Daxx]

What kind of bothers me is that you seem to give Hyroen zero credit over his idea simply because you think your idea is better. Instead you are trying desperately to claim that they are totally different ideas, when they clearly are not. Identical mechanics but from different elements. I am a firm believer in giving credit to people who came up with the idea first, because otherwise I could just reuse any idea from the Crucible archives and claim it my own.

I've already said that I'm happy to give credit where credit's due. Yes, there's obviously a similarity between the cards and I'm willing to acknowledge that. However, I'm also saying that my idea is not absolutely identical to Hyroen's, which you're trying to imply. I understand that you have a strong opinion on the matter, but I disagree - especially in this case, it does in fact make a difference that this card is in a different element. It also makes a difference that the upgraded versions are different. I'm not going to bother repeating my explanation as I've said it already. What I'm being defensive against is your implication that the ideas are absolutely identical and that I am somehow obsessed with usurping Hyroen's idea. It's sort of offensive.

If I were you, I would at least mention in the first topic that the same exact mechanics were used in a earlier idea by Hyroen, and post a link to that topic. That's the right thing to do. Other option, like we talked about on the private forums, is to somehow "merge" the the idea topics so that both get credit and nobody will feel like their idea was stolen.

Mentioning Hyroen's idea in the first post as a similar suggestion was in fact my idea, I should point out. I will go do that.

Does anyone have any comment on the actual card?

[EmeraldTiger]

here would be a good set up, create a Donate spell that allows you to give 1 card from your hand to the top of your opponents deck. then you could do the mindgate nightmare lock. plus a Donate spell would open up new card ideas. with this card there needs to be ways to keep your opponent's hand full. Also the system could use a way to allow for hands to have cards greater than the current limit.