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Re: Broken Mirror | Eldritch Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10014.msg188108#msg188108
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2010, 02:32:31 am »
You disagree with any of the strategies I listed to counter this card, Dan?  "Phantoms are too strong" isn't a good enough argument, you have to provide a reason the current x|x is too high.

Offline ratcharmer

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Re: Broken Mirror | Eldritch Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10014.msg188659#msg188659
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2010, 06:24:41 pm »
You disagree with any of the strategies I listed to counter this card, Dan?  "Phantoms are too strong" isn't a good enough argument, you have to provide a reason the current x|x is too high.
Compare the cost of the card to the cost for graveyard/boneyard, then compare the stats on the creatures generated.

As too the counter strategies, I'd like to point out a couple things:
You seem to be only considering the card in mono- :aether . As an example of what I mean, consider what a :time / :aether duo with mirrors and eternity would do to any strategy based around growth creatures or blessing/chaos power. Or flying weapons for that matter.

I can name other mixes that would be equally deadly to just about all of the strategies listed.

A few notes on specific counter strategies:
Permanent Control: This can really be said of any permanent that isn't indestructible from the start. Consider if I were to suggest the following card:
Awesome shield stops 50 damage, cost 1 :earth
Clearly overpowered, yet permanent control would still be an effective counter.
Also, I don't think steal would actually be terribly effective; if a deck is counting on the mirrors for creatures then it probably doesn't have that many creature cards. So steal ends up as a more expensive version of explosion.

Blessing Deck: In order to get a creature out early to bless you need to have a lot of creatures in your deck, which then means either you'll have a lot of useless cards in your hand later or you'll be triggering the mirrors. I'd give this maybe a 50-50 shot at beating a mirror deck, and none at all if reverse time comes into play.

Devourer Denial: For this to work you need to have a lot of devourers. A lot of devourers means a lot of summoning. Add to that :darkness has no damage-reducing shield and I really don't think this is a viable option.

Thorns could be a viable counter if played right, but trying an empathy deck would be suicide.

Mirror vs. Mirror: running an exact copy of any deck will always put you on even footing, regardless of how OP or UP the deck might be.

Mindgate & aflatoxin: I don't think I'm clear on how these are really supposed to help, can you clarify the strategies maybe?

Aw heck, I don't think you need a blow-by-blow for every counter you listed. The point is some of them are viable, some I really don't think are, and just about all of them could be decimated by modifications to the mirror deck.

Generally the combo I'd be most worried about would be the  :time / :aether combo with eternity & rewind. It could deal with probably 90% of the strategies you listed against this card. It's not that broken, since there isn't handy perm control for either of those elements, but it's still pretty insane. I'd think about the only viable counters would be stall decks that kill with either a strong weapon, gas or bolts, and even then not all of them would work (devourers).

On a more general point, usually any time a card requires specific strategies against it that card is a little too strong.

Re: Broken Mirror | Eldritch Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10014.msg190365#msg190365
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2010, 06:30:54 pm »
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You seem to be only considering the card in mono- :aether
Most of my counter-strategies were likewise isolated cards.  But the person I was responding to was considering the card in a vacuum, so I responded in kind.

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I can name other mixes that would be equally deadly to just about all of the strategies listed.
Please do.  I will take anything you have to add along these lines into consideration as a possible reason to rebalance this card.  It's honestly nice to have someone saying something more than "OP 4 immortal attack is hax."

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Or flying weapons for that matter.
No, Mirror is not triggered by playing weapons or flying them.

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Also, I don't think steal would actually be terribly effective; if a deck is counting on the mirrors for creatures then it probably doesn't have that many creature cards. So steal ends up as a more expensive version of explosion.
Running a deck that counts entirely on mirrors for creatures would be unwise - a single enemy creature played before your first mirror is enough to defeat you.  Lots and lots of decks can pull that off.  Steal is still a disincentive turned against its owner; even if the mirror deck has no creatures, the Steal-er doesn't know that.  The most valuable commodity in war is information - knowing any creature your opponent plays will be mirrored gives you a little breathing room in strategy.

To answer your question -
Aflatoxin does not trigger Mirror.  It would be a viable strat used on either side - if the Mirror deck is using any targetable creature, a single Aflatoxin + Skull Shield will prevent Mirrors being triggered once the enemy field is full.  If used on your side on a cheap early creature, creates a 23-attack army that will never create any enemy Phantoms, and will renew itself barring a Firestorm/Fire Buckler/Thorn Carapace.

Mindgate was a suggestion for :aether vs :aether.  Used often enough, you can intercept cards and possibly gain some advantage.  It's just a factor to consider in an even matchup - there are too many Mindgate possibilities for me to go into that.

As for Empathy decks, one of my favorites fits the bill nicely: FFQ.  You get the first one out, then all the rest of the creatures trigger no Phantoms.  Even if the first queen falls, tossing out a second shouldn't break you.

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On a more general point, usually any time a card requires specific strategies against it that card is a little too strong.
Some ingame cards - or, I should say, deck concepts - already require specific strats to counter:
Quicksand Denial - must have a means of rapid quanta generation or at least two stacks of pillars/pendulums.
Flying Glories - must be outrushed or countered with insane healing.
Shrieker Rush - must be outrushed or have strong creature control, possibly also healing.
Poison Rush - must be outrushed, countered with plenty of healing, or deck must have Purify.
Unstable Gas - must be reflected or outhealed.
Growth decks, esp. Golems - must be outrushed or have strong early or non-damage creature control.
Sexington's - must have a large deck and/or Eternity with Enchant Artifact, plus a Photon or similar cheap creature.
Dissipation Shield/Field - must outrush, Quicksand, or have permanent control - only outrush if Enchant Artifact is also present.
Dune Scorpion decks - must be able to play many cards early and rely on a solid setup right away, or pack Purify.  (unsure about this one)

A card is not over/underpowered based on isolated counters, but whether the presence of the card completely alters the game balance so that not including the card in any deck puts you at a serious disadvantage, and including it forces nearly any opponent to rethink his deck strategy.  Of course as you point out, it can't be discussed in a vacuum - your "Awesome Shield" would be most deadly in a deck with Enchant Artifact, and that combo would absolutely break any creature-based deck, forcing massive restructuring of all decks that rely on creatures for damage.

To show any card OP, there needs to be a specific strategy (or strategies) that would render vast numbers of currently viable decks obsolete.  It's like if firebolt rush could outpace any other deck known to man, and the only viable counter was a shield with spell reflection - everyone would have to run a firebolt deck with spell reflection, or they would fall victim repeatedly to those that do.

If it becomes clear that :time :aether or some other combination would be so powerful that everyone and their grandmothers would have to adapt to mass-migration or die, then a serious rebalance is in order, and I'll be very willing.

Re: Broken Mirror | Eldritch Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10014.msg196435#msg196435
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2010, 06:57:29 am »
Oh noes!

7 years of bad luck for the creator!

Offline AnonymousRevival

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Re: Broken Mirror | Eldritch Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10014.msg196504#msg196504
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2010, 10:21:36 am »
Does everyone have to believe this superstition? Anyways, I think it's balanced, and nice card art BTW.
Ignotum venit retro vivere. :aether :light

Re: Broken Mirror | Eldritch Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10014.msg287297#msg287297
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2011, 02:24:09 am »
I think this would give Nightmare another use.

Running a deck with

Mark: Darkness
5x Nightmare
6x Ray of Light
5x Eldritch  Mirror
3x Improved Steal
1x Improved Miracle
10x Aether Tower

The combo is simple. Play a couple Eldritch Mirrors, then cast a Ray of Light. Cast Nightmare, targetting the Ray of Light and filling your opponents hand with cheap creatures (and draining life). Now sit there and use steal to take any shields your opponent may play, blocking out his Rays, and opening the way for your Phantoms.

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Re: Broken Mirror | Eldritch Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10014.msg287362#msg287362
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2011, 04:05:04 am »
nice card. It would really boost aether a lot.

Re: Broken Mirror | Eldritch Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10014.msg375787#msg375787
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2011, 09:13:15 am »
this plus GotP+ nightmare, either they dicard GotP and take 13 damage or you'll get an 4/2 immaterial creature.

Re: Broken Mirror | Eldritch Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10014.msg375999#msg375999
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2011, 09:12:56 pm »
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this plus GotP+ nightmare, either they dicard GotP and take 13 damage or you'll get an 4/2 immaterial creature.
Well, that's a trio deck, but a stable one since Nightmare can be run on the mark.  Ghost was introduced long after this card hit Armory; it does seem like a strong combo.  Glad to see my old ideas getting new strategies!

Offline Toxx

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Re: Broken Mirror | Eldritch Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10014.msg378461#msg378461
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2011, 11:36:48 am »
Love the way this card looks but wayyy OP imo.

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Re: Broken Mirror | Eldritch Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10014.msg384128#msg384128
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2011, 05:32:36 am »
I think this would give Nightmare another use.

Running a deck with

Mark: Darkness
5x Nightmare
6x Ray of Light
5x Eldritch  Mirror
3x Improved Steal
1x Improved Miracle
10x Aether Tower

The combo is simple. Play a couple Eldritch Mirrors, then cast a Ray of Light. Cast Nightmare, targetting the Ray of Light and filling your opponents hand with cheap creatures (and draining life). Now sit there and use steal to take any shields your opponent may play, blocking out his Rays, and opening the way for your Phantoms.
U just made me love this card even more :P

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Re: Broken Mirror | Eldritch Mirror https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10014.msg390787#msg390787
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2011, 07:24:08 pm »
The idea is nice, but it seems yet another powerful card for this element, I'm starting to hate it :\

 

anything
blarg: