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Offline kevTopic starter

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Round 9 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47954.msg1053693#msg1053693
« on: March 24, 2013, 02:49:50 am »
Battles:
1:aether hainkargavs:entropy Gen. Calindu
2:aether Wizardcatvs:entropy inthisroom
3:aether Avengervs:air Gen. kev
4:aether vagman13vs:air Jen-i
5:aether UTAlanvs:time Cheesy111
6:aether Gen. deuce22vs:time Gen. PlayerOa
7:air Bloomvs:entropy Anthraxx


Support bans (reminder that rares are NOT allowed):
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Spoiler for what this topic is for:
We'll use this topic (and chat) to discuss who should take which deck with what build, etc.  As I said in the Deck Ideas thread, you are ultimately responsible for your deck choice each round.  I will not be choosing your deck for you (though I hope you'll listen to the opinions of your teammates and I  ;D).  Part of deckbuilding is choosing roles for each player.  It makes more sense to include who should be Lt for the round as a part of the deckbuilding discussion as the Lt gets three extra ups.  Likewise, we have a decision to make each round on whether to make use of the Berserker ability, etc.  In future rounds we will also need to discuss s/d/c/p.  All of these discussions occur concurrently, and we'll use a thread like this as well as chat to facilitate the discussion.
Spoiler for Member roles reminders:
General - uses nine ups
- Lieutenant - uses six ups
- Strategist - may remove up to six cards from his deck before each duel. Each duel must have a legal deck, and his full deck must also be legal.
- Berserker - discard 1, 2 or 3 cards from the Vault during deckbuilding. The Berserker may use 1, 3 or 4 extra upgrades respectively.
- Quartermaster - if the Quartermaster plays in a battle, each winner from their team may claim 1 card from their element by relinquishing 3 of their salvage, or 2 salvage if the Quartermaster wins. Limit of two cards per person. Teams may not claim cards they already have at least 6 copies of.
- Standard Bearer - salvages N more cards and discards N fewer cards, where N is the number of wins their team has had that round.

Please try to have initial thoughts written 48 hours into deckbuilding each round at the very latest and remember that your thoughts on all of our matchups are appreciated (not just your match).  Bonus points for earlier. ;)  That gives us two days to discuss, finalize, sdcp, add everything to vault, etc.

Countdown to 48 hour mark: was here
Deckbuilding: Duel phase has started
Duels: Fighting ends!
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 03:15:11 am by kev »

Offline AnnaMall

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Re: Round 9 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47954.msg1054113#msg1054113
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2013, 02:55:19 pm »
This round is very tricky and whoever get positive gets a nice headstart for the finals. I would like to congratulate you all for your efforts this war, we done great and reached my pre-war expectations with 100 cards to spare, so for me we are in bonus stage. Let others have the stress of underachieving.

To the point then. We are in a tight spot as we dont have really the in-element cards to field  3 combat ready decks, so we have to outsmart them again. The sum of all our decks air cards including Q cannot be over 71 (or max +2-3 ).

Everybody fears our sancstall the most. Entropy tried to counter is throught war time and time again and deuce admitted it in chat, so all our opponents will work towards that. So I lean atm to bench sancstall for this round as it does not help towards the above target (71 air cards)

 :entropy match
Entropy really has two options vs sancstall the mono and a dimpugons they can salvage back. Their dark duo and bow cannot win consistently. Accounting for the vault restrictions my proposal would be
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4vf 4vf 4vf 4vn 4vn 4vn 5og 5og 5oi 5oi 5ol 5ol 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 6u3 6u3 7dm 7dm 7mv 8pj

Preliminary test results: beats easy dimpugons, ~60% vs mono, lose hard to bow and seems 50-50 vs dark duo

 :aether matches
I assume we still have those 2 mirror shields and that adds another lvl of fear to sancstall. This makes me believe that they would run lobos vs us to counter nymphs and lobo their psions if they have to. Dimless psiontal, PUbow and fractix have the best chances vs sancstall. I wouldnt be surprised if they send 2x psiontal vs us

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5f6 5f6 5f6 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oh 5oh 5oh 5oh 7ms 7mu 7mv 7mv 7mv 7n5 7n5 7ng 7ng 8po

Tricky to play and test, some real testing should be nice. Seems like 50-50 vs dimless psiontall despite the 1-4 REV. 4-1 REV vs dimpsiontal. 5-0 REV vs their fastest fractix

Coaching playing vs the dimless psiontal: Act as a rush ie. OE/TS is never used for cc unless xs Q or no hitters in hand.Defl Q asap. Wyrms/nymphs are there for the dmg and bait cc, if the nymph gets to fart it is a bonus not a requirement. Since all those cannot be done by the AI I believe the REV testing needs to be redone in real testing.

With what is left we can build
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5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5on 5on 5on 5on 5on 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5up 5up 7mu 7mu 7mv 7mv 7ta 7td 7td 7td 8pt

Can manage in preliminary testing close to 40-50% vs dimless psiontal(more if unnuped psions), beats dimpsiontal

All these leaves us in need of 15 conversions and use 1 extra defl. Can be twicked for the Q and gimp something for the defl.

Offline kevTopic starter

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Re: Round 9 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47954.msg1054198#msg1054198
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2013, 09:41:30 pm »
As usual, I haven't looked at the above post yet.

 :entropy - There are a few good reasons to send sanc stall at Pony.  We can't run sanc stall at Pony.  There are a few good reasons to send sanc stall at Pony.  We can't run sanc stall at Pony.  We're down to just a few decks and it just makes too much sense for us to send sancs their way.  They're capable of building dimfractalagon to counter it, and at some level they won't want to send aether cards to an aether matchup anyway.  Unfortunately our only options to beat dimfractalagon use either deflags, nymphs, or steals.  The 2 Nymphs we used last round is certainly an option and it tested well against their grabbow, too.  I posted this as a dark duo strat version worth considering.  It's not bad against their grabbows either and has the advantage of not being used before.

Though it doesn't do well against their mono.  Which they definitely won't send at Aether so I guess it's more likely we'll see it.  Crap.  Here I begin to get derailed.

I don't think we have a deck that beats both their mono (a rush) and dimfractalagons (a break).  Last round they built something specifically to counter sanc stall and were crushed when we brought something else.  Do they really salvage all the components just to send it to us again?  Or do they send mono, which beats the last version we used of 2 nymphs, Cane, and Bonair, all/any of which they might suspect we still have?

Conclusion
The three most likely decks we'll see are dimfractalagons, mono, and grabbow.
- If we think they're more likely to go with dimfractalagons than mono, I think we go dark duo, which beats dimfractalagons and grabbow.
- If we think they're more likely to go with mono than dimfractalagons, we have a number of options and should probably pick based on what we have left from the aether matchups.  Sanc stall is one clear option.  Anything else will need to be overquanta'd and have at least a couple fogs.


:aether - Odd that they played 0 lobos last round.  They showed 6 in two decks the round before and won with them.  I'm sure it's coincidence.  Just odd.

Jen's initial thought was we could see 2x psiontals out of them.  I agree they're capable of sending the same deck twice in the hopes of going 50/50, but I don't think it's likely we'll see 2x psiontals because they can't risk losing both to mirror shield sanc stall and 2 Nymphs.

RoL/Hope and bone bolt aren't real likely, which makes grabbow, psiontal, and fractix their most likely candidates.  Unfortunately they sometimes use dims in some builds of all three of those and we're more likely than last round to face dims.  I think it's unwise to use Cane again as we did last round.  As I said in the Entropy matchup, our only options against dims are deflags, nymphs, and steals.  Here I'd add stalls.  Sanc stall beats some of their range (though I'd love to keep hidden the fact we're out of mirrors).  Using a dim stall against that range is bad.


In conclusion I guess the three decks I recommend are sanc stall, 2 nymphs, and some form of the dark duo, and I don't have strong feelings for which belongs where.  Yet.

Offline Jen-i

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Re: Round 9 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47954.msg1054214#msg1054214
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2013, 10:52:45 pm »
Jen's Attempt at Mingating:

Aether is facing entropy (who run 2 Discord decks) & Time (who run 1 Discord deck) this round - therefore it makes excellent sense in both cases for Aether to send their 1-2 Grabbows out to tangle with potential Discord then at us. While Dim Shield is an adequate counter to Discord two of those Discord decks also run PC.

Aether sending RoL/Hope our direction is unlikely - both 2 Nymphs (UG) and Sanc Stall (TStorm) counter it pretty strongly.

Bone Bolt also loses to Sanc Stall so I think its less likely as well.

If Aether gambles on Fractrix in one match and Psiontal in the other they risk losing both matches by randomly facing a Rush packing TStorm in the first and SancStall with Mirror's in the second. They have the same issues if they run Fractrix and Bone Bolt - the decks don't overlap in their winning range and as a result they leave victory to fate.

Deuce strikes me as the sort of player that will want to play against our range as best he can - and is willing to take loses to hedge his bets (like sending Pestal against us last round).

Add to this we've only shown 1 deck with PC in the last couple rounds I think it highly likely we see two copies of Psiontal - both running Lobo and Dim Shields. That way even if one loses its unlikely that both will.

Spoiler for Jen's crazyass ideas:
This Decks a Frankenmonster too - but initial testing shows some promise against the Dim/Psiontal deck they ran last round.
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4vf 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5of 5oi 5oi 5ol 5ol 5ol 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 6u3 6u3 6u7 6u7 6u7 7dm 7mv 7ng 7ng 8pj

But it will struggle if they bring Lightning - bolting their own AM'd Psions sucks.

I'm tinkering with a second fire duo, just splashing 3 deflags - but I'm having trouble getting enough damage on the table and leaving us with much to play in the entropy match up.
Spoiler for even crazier ideas:
If we can't a second deck that consistently beats Psiontal we should abandon the attempt - hope they play something else and counter their next most likely decks - Reclusetal and Fractrix

Entropy Thoughts:
I believe they will salvage the pieces for Dim/Fractalagons but I do not believe they'll play it against us. Instead I highly expect to see their mono this next round - my expectation is they send their dark duo and grabbow at Aether. Both decks have had success in the past and both decks can pack nightmare.

This leaves me thinking sending a Dim Shield / TU or Fractal deck here would be a reasonable play - both ideas cover over our lack of hitters nicely outside of entropy's own Dim Stall there's not much they can do about it - even with their Dim Stall they'd have to be running and draw the lone copy of Silence they could potential have in their deck for it to matter

« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 11:34:28 pm by Jen-i »
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Offline Jen-i

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Re: Round 9 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47954.msg1054451#msg1054451
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2013, 10:12:51 pm »
Here's where Jen sits at the moment:

kev's deck:
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5f6 5f6 5f6 5f6 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5on 5on 5on 5on 5on 7ms 7ms 7ms 7mv 7mv 7mv 7mv 7ng 7ng 8po


Jen's deck:
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5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oh 5oh 5oh 5oh 5oi 5oi 5ol 5ol 5ol 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 7k2 7k2 7k2 8pq

adding 6 filler cards on the off chance they send Strat our way as well (Gets us to 38 for anti deck out)

Bloom's deck: (As Quarter Master)
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5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5of 5of 5og 5og 5og 5ol 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5up 5up 7mu 7mu 7mu 7td 7td 7td 8pt
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Offline AnnaMall

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Re: Round 9 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47954.msg1054632#msg1054632
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2013, 07:53:40 am »
I see a few problems using the current set-up...
1) Aether expect sancstall not from our Gen, so it would make sence to send their sancstall counter(fractix) most probably in that matchup. Jen noticed it in the early round's planning too
2) Aether sending 2 mono decks with the hope of winning 50% is bad choice in their part.
3) Aether matchups are very predictable as we send them

Current mindgate:dimpsiontal or bonebolt reclusetal vs kev and psiontal/fractix vs jen (underlined my favorites)

Suggestion: Maybe we can make stuff work by switching kev's and jen's decks? Can we make them work with fewer ups?

Gen kev's deck
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4vc 4vc 4vc 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oh 5oh 5oh 5oh 5oi 5oi 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 6u7 6u7 6u7 7k2 7k2 7k2 7n5 7n5 7n5 8pq



Lt jen's deck
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5f6 5f6 5f6 5f6 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5on 5on 5on 5on 5on 7mv 7mv 7mv 7mv 7ng 7ng 8po



QM bloom's deck +3 relics
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5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5of 5of 5og 5og 5og 5ol 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5up 5up 7mu 7mu 7mu 7td 7td 7td 8pt


Vault sum:
With those decks we need 17 conversions for Q. We can cut a few but it dont think we can go lower than 14-15 conversions(sancstall can work with -1-2 pends). There are 2 fogs we can squeese too

That leaves us with stuff for another deck, either a dims/fewPU/fractal(9 cards) or the toads/squids (8 cards)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 10:46:10 am by AnnaMall »

Offline Jen-i

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Re: Round 9 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47954.msg1054665#msg1054665
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2013, 01:59:35 pm »
kev's deck needs 2-3 fogs - it doesn't have enough stall otherwise to out last Reclusetal. I went 0-4 in reverse testing without fog

I then went -2 FW +2 Fog (bolts and lobo make a mockery of flying EE anyways) and have gone 3-1 since. The loss was the lone game where I didn't draw a fog.

Odds are 57% of drawing 1 Fog in the 1st 5 turns with 2 in the deck - 73% of the same with 3

It comes down to which deck needs them more - because our Dark Duo is currently running 3 as well.
Although that said its a slimmer deck at 30 cards odds of drawing Fog in the 1st 5 turns are 69% and with 3 its 83%

That said we need Fog earlier in that deck as a means to counter Discord - so odds of drawing 1 by turn 3 61% at 2 & 76% at 3

My leaning at the moment would be 3 Fog in the Sanc Stall and 2 in the Dark Duo
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 02:04:59 pm by Jen-i »
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Offline AnnaMall

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Re: Round 9 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47954.msg1054774#msg1054774
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2013, 08:47:49 pm »
QM Bloom's deck:
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4vc 4vf 4vf 4vf 5of 5of 5og 5og 5ol 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5up 6u3 6u3 6u7 6u7 6u7 7dm 8pj


Gen kev's deck:
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5lm 5lm 5lm 5oc 5oc 5oc 5og 5og 5og 5oh 5oh 5oh 5oh 5oi 5oi 5on 5on 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 7k2 7k2 7k2 7k6 7k6 7k6 7n5 7n5 7n5 8pq


Lt Jen's deck:
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5f6 5f6 5f6 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5of 5of 5of 5on 5on 7mu 7mu 7mu 7mv 7ng 7ng 8po
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 09:56:59 pm by Jen-i »

 

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