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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33434.msg422507#msg422507
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2011, 08:44:02 pm »
As for decks that could beat Wings/Darkness, this deck seems to have a decent shot, with the deflag nerf, devourers will be more than just bonus towers here and might even make the difference
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Last played in round 4. Eternities and Reverse times are a pain, Phoenixes do damage, and 4 deflags are deflags. Thankfully, they might not be playing so many reverse times against us in case they think we will be taking the nymph deck.



They do have up to 6 Crusader salvage for this deck
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as well as a few possible miracles if they want to make it more of a stall that way.


The other airborne creatures are less of a worry, like fate egg/forest spirit in the grabbows, or the one dragon in the dimshield/fractal deck.






Now that I think about it, poison is a better option now (it just keeps getting better, since purifies the first thing to be discarded as soon as a team needs to cut down on cards) - the spider deck could be very strong if we picked the right opponents. Stronger than pandemonium is a different story, but..



IMO what each team is likely to take against us (I'll test against these soon with some options we have)
-they could take other decks, I'm not a master predictor :/


:entropy

*We are against a Liutenant, so +3 upped cards for most decks.

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Antimatters and nymphs slow the game down, BE and devourers can keep everything low from shields to quanta streams. This definitely seems the most likely deck, and they can add more Steals/Cloaks/ even LS if they want.

I doubt they would take a stall after we salvaged poisons, can kill our own creatures with OEs if antimattered, and have that famous Blue Nymph deck - if they weren't taking pandebonium I would imagine
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another of these. (I think they will want to save pandebonium until a few rounds later when we are not expecting it, as they have lost 2, but I'll put one here anyway)
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 :earth


+6 ups for them

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with more rewinds is the first deck I expect them to take, we run pillar decks, and our counter last time would have been killed by Reverse Time.

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and if I were them, this would be my thrid choice, although I wouldn't really be expecting it
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 :death

Death generally plays simplistic (but strong) decks, and last round is where it worked best, 2 grabbows, 2 dimshield/fractals and 1 darkness duo

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and their darkness duo here
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with their limited PC, I almost think our Wings deck could win here. (Maybe not the final match up)
The good news is that their deck makeups more often than not, don't changem so we can easily tell them exactly how many of which cards they have (like my matchup with gravity last round). Also means that Reverse Times are unlikely.


**** I tested this deck against them, did decently against the first one (even with 9 ups), could win against the second but needed a great deal of luck to do it consistently (3 of 5). I took out two Crusaders from the one used last round and added pendulums. Sometimes the starts are over the top, but a turn two owls eye is a great start against both of those decks. It won quite well against the Darkness duo too.

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OEs seem to be a must, we just need to decide what we use them with. (Pandemonium upped/Bonewall/Miracle), and overproduce quanta because I have a feeling we are going to be tasting the EQ deck. (We can decide that once we finalise the other match ups)

^All tests above were against the AI, because it can't use Crusaders for shit. The only clear mistake I saw was when they nightmared a Crusader into my hand instead of OEs. Also, play OE in weapon slot against steal, Vamp daggers are so annoying and even if they take a pend, 3 damage isnt much against OEs and Crusaders. And we can deck out them.

 :darkness
+ 3 ups  for them

The only team with less cards than us we are matched up against

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*Also, the -1 Bone Pillar has been solved, kevkev awarded us a free Bone Pillar (rather than penalizing us -1) for being his favourite team, so now we have a grand total of 0 to use in our decks
And our Salvage/Discard page should be ready to just choose what cards we want

we have 50 pendulums and 18 pillars (before discarding and conversion) to work with this time.




and not mentioned before (I think) is Bonewall OE, although only 4 Bone Walls make this deck less optimised. 2 arsenics though

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33434.msg422631#msg422631
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2011, 02:31:14 am »
Just tested the Nymph deck against the  :earth decks in DD's post, and the results are 3-0, 3-1, 3-1.  The only one I'm concerned with is the stall, since the AI can't use SS's right.  For 2 of the wins I had more than enough turns to explode more UG's though.  For the 3rd deck, the AI deflagged UG's over shields, but I usually had enough HP for another turn and still had 4~5 more shields.  The Nymph/Immo helped for all games, except for the first match-up (never drew it).

Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33434.msg422699#msg422699
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2011, 06:34:04 am »
The results above seemed a little weird to me to be honest, from looking all those decks appear to counter ours pretty well (EQs kill reliance on quanta and damage output, eternity wings prevention, stone skins beat unstable Gas (AI does not take them into account when deciding whether to use it) and 4 Deflags seems like enough to get through the shields.


So, I redid it, worst case scenario. (That is, I removed 3 upgrades from the nymph deck, added 6 more to all the earth ones - and set it up so that our AI was failing at everything). And the results pretty much turned around on themselves. There were a couple games that we could have won with proper playing, but from that sample they seemed to be anomalies rather than the norm - except maybe in the last matchup, (where ai quinting a spider and hoping for few deflags won it the game)



But yeah, if we were to make sure that every deck we played beat one deck from the other teams, IMO the first decks posted above for  :entropy and  :time are the best guesses we are going to make.




These were the decks I was thinking for against  :entropy and  :darkness respectively. Problem is that these decks are mutually exclusive, we can only take one. (And then we can't take bonewall/arsenic either)

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Bone dragon is from the Dragon OTK deck.

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Above deck is not awesome, may need fixing
*Won 2 of 5 vs Grabbow, would have won 3 with Human playing. Perve probably knows to pandemonium before antimatter and ect - we definitely should upgrade the Maxwells if using this, 1 extra HP means it survives Shockwave (which there is one of), then probably antimatters or Dragon. Against Darkness it probably doesn't even need the second BE/Dragonfly, just slows it down imo

Less confident against GoTP time, its better suited than the deck put out last round, but still very imperfect. We can live in the hope that they saw sanctuaries and won't take it again (possible) - or maybe we should even take Sanctuaries here.

Too many streams of thought to focus.


Now, the first one means that pretty much our only duo against death is with sanctuary/crusader/miracle, which did quite well in testing (me playing air) in 2 of 3 match ups, and could win the 3rd (which IMO is the most likely) with a little luck.
With the second one, we might be able to sneak in some more entropy stalling cards if we found that worked better.

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33434.msg422761#msg422761
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2011, 11:40:14 am »
Since I have to suggest something too, then there it is (sory if it messes up your plans, but you don't have to listen to me):

Drunk Destroyer agains  :time
 
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Permanent control cards that they could have (Steals, Deflags), would be useless. Rewinds are relatively harmless. If they play something like Pharaos or Crusaders, then we have to hope that Liquid Shadows could lobotomize them. Still, this deck is relatively predictable. And if this deck loses, then it's not so big deal. Because of that I think that you can choose betray (but it's up to you, of course).

Bloom agains  :entropy

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Dragonflies here are for shooting obviously  :) . If they will stall, then maybe Arsenics may help and whatever they try to organize against Wings, it would be useless. Since here are Owl's Eyes that we have only 6, then my sugegstion is: go for honour.

Bat agains  :earth

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Steal instead of Deflag would be a sort of anti-pulv. Here are some nice cards (Nymph, Owl, Quint), then go for honour maybe?

Pervepic vs  :darkness

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I can go with betray

Legit and  :death

I don't know, why not just to try to deck them out? They use small decks usually and they can pick Fractal-Dragons too btw

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This on can go with betray too.


If we go with that, then Salvaging-Discarding-Saving would be this:

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vl 4vl 4vl 4vl 4vn 4vn 55v 55v 55v 55v 55v 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 5oi 5oi 5oi 745 745 745 8pj
2 Antimatter, 1 Discord, 3 Nova
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3 Graboids, 1 Basilisk Blood, 2 Nova
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1 Maxwell's Daemon, 1 Discords, 1 Butterfly Effect, 1 Pandemonium, 1 Antimatter, 1 Owl's Eye
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1 Shockwave, 1 Fog Shield, 4 Azure Dragons
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2 Arsenic, 4 Bone Walls
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A Purple Dragon, 2 Basilisk Blood, Sky Blitz, 2 Phase Shields (last 3 cards can be something else)

If we pick some of those, then please overcheck if everything is legal, if anyone has time. Now it seems that we have to convert something (unused) to get enough Pillars. Maybe just some Pendulums to Pillars. But we have to decide about decks first.






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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33434.msg422994#msg422994
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2011, 11:57:47 pm »
The decks above aren't necessarily the final ones, but I'm pretty happy with them at first glance - might do some testing on some of the ones against iffier opponents.
(vs :darkness is the main one, can it consistently beat GotP?)

But I put them all into the Vault to see how short we are of pillars/pends and other.


We are short:
23 Wind Pillars
4 Damselflies

(and the OE/Bonewall deck can have 3 more upgrades).


We can convert 23 pillars if needed, but somewhere we will need to lose Dragonflies from decks, or salvage more.
To salvage more, we could discard another antimatter (we have 4 and are using 3), and then we have 12 Dragons, and 5 Fogs which may be a little less needed, just to get to 3 or 4 more Damselflies.


Just tested Perve's deck against  :death , and I'm pretty happy with how it went honestly, its got a great chance against all 3 decks they are likely to bring against us (if they have the same ones as last round), EQs never stop it completely, the other relies on 4 Novas and 2 Deflags (I had never got that far, in all 3 games the ai had killed me first) and the darkness deck can do well when played well (cloaks stopping you from webbing dragons, dimshields stolen at prime times) - but even then, it needs quite a bit of luck, and the first two games or so the player is hopefully not going to figure all that out yet.

Just shield early, even one poison damage from Blonde's arse can change how early they can spring two deflags in a row. And if you figure out which deck they are using early, you can relax a little easier too. (The only worry I have is if they salvage Momentums from their UW win - however past times show that they don't tend to tailor decks to opponents - which is great for us)





The one against :darkness , I was about to cry when our deck lost 0-4 to the GotP deck, being very confused at what the AI was doing with all the cards in its hand and why it wasn't killing me (until around game 3 where I figured out that they were GotPs).
I swapped, playing with our deck and won 3 - 1, and even though the ai theoretically plays GotP quite well, it really doesn't. It rewound my dragonfly for turns using up its time for creatures while I just waited for it to run out before I played Maxwell. (only the first game).

I'm not sure whether that deck could be improved upon with Sanctuaries, and saving the entropy duo for another round? (Although, we don't really have any other light cards that would go well with that deck - just 2 Miracles- , and of course, Darkness saw our sanctuaries so might play a grabbow and they would be useless there if we can't win that round.

I'll stop thinking, 1234th post!!!




Ok, so before the deadline -

8 More Pillars Turned a lot of Pends into pillars. Next round, if not matched up against UW we should probably convert the BHs - since eventually they will probably just have their Sanctuary deck (or convert another deck, I'm just not decisive enough to make a move like that) Pillar issues for this round have been solved.

3 More Damsels (or remove them from the decks, and keep fog shields/dragons)

Death/Air needs 3 upgrades (Bone walls and one Arsenic?) done

PM Kevkev with Betray/Honor decisions done, although I can probably send a revised one if the one below is not acceptable for any reason


I haven't made any deals with anyone, so unless 10 men or TorB happen to pop into chat and want to agree to a two Honor system, I think we're fixed on this -
DrunkDestroyer - Betray
Pervepic - Betray
Bloom - Honor
BatCountry - Honor
Legit - Betray
I should be able to get on before the deadline to do this, but we still have 12 ish hours of potential discussion.
Like, if there are better ways to get the Dragonflies, whether they should be taken out, whether we should try sneak in that Chimera and hope for good salvages so we can use that anti earth deck in future rounds.

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33434.msg423157#msg423157
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2011, 08:20:17 am »
Thanks a lot with testing. According to the new information, my deck would be this:

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And there were some modifications in  :death duo (Bloom's deck) :

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DD-s deck:

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Bat's deck:

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 590 590 595 595 595 5f6 5f9 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5od 5of 5of 5og 5og 5ol 5p0 77g 7t9 80h 8pm


Legit's deck:

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33434.msg423192#msg423192
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2011, 09:59:46 am »
I modified Bloom's deck back again and took that additional 31th card - Pendulum - away. It wasn't so good, because there are only 4 Bone Walls and a deck just can't be big. I also added that change to the Vault and modified my last post accordingly.

And I modified DD-s deck.
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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33434.msg423387#msg423387
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2011, 09:29:46 pm »
So my deck went 2-1 against the  :darkness duo. 0-4 against the Disc/BH rainbow deck. Early discord every game means this deck stands no chance. I think it needs a way to stop discord. maybe 3 upped bone walls instead of the weapons? 0-2 against Pandebonium. I guess it's too late to change decks now but I would've suggested something like this.

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5li 5li 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oe 5oe 5oe 5oe 5of 5of 5of 5of 5ol 5ol 5oo 5oo 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 7k6 7k6 7k6 8pq
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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33434.msg423408#msg423408
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2011, 10:48:32 pm »
Not much we can do now Bloom, the deck should stand a fighting chance against a few of them - but  :entropy is one of the strongest teams in the game at the moment, we can only counter so many of their cards. I have a feeling that they will be taking the darkness duo, as we don't even know for certain that they have another Pandebonium (they have lost 2) and we showed off the fact that we do have Sanctuaries last round, so they may not take BHs.

I don't think we can change upped cards at this point - and we can't know anything for sure until the game is played (and Good luck in that game! :) )


Here's how our matchups are gonna be with the betraying/honoring if you haven't seen for yourselves:

Betray vs  :time who Honor
Honor vs  :entropy who Betray
Honor vs  :earth who Betray
Betray vs  :death who Betray
Betray vs  :darkness who Betray

I was hoping for more betrayals between other teams that weren't us, but we can't have everything. And like always, if you want to post what time you will be playing here, we just might be able to catch you and cheerlead from Spectate




Some good news in terms of what decks have been used, MatrimK took the Disc/BH (there may still be one more though) - and one Darkness grabbow has been used, so we are likely to see GoTP again. (Not great news, but at least we're a little more prepared for it)

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33434.msg423726#msg423726
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2011, 03:25:13 pm »
Just lost 3-2 to Rastafla. He used a :fire duo with upped explosion. Discord was the biggest bitch I've ever encountered. Upped BW's would've definitely made a huge difference. The upped weps didn't serve me any better than they would have un-upped. I think the arsenics were a waste and could've been replaced by 2 more pendulums. In every loss at one point I had 5 death quanta and it dropped to discord. Anyways, I kept it close and did my best. Hopefully the rest of you will do better than I.
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  • Awards: Weekly Tournament WinnerWar #3 Winner - Team FirePsuedo-Element Winner (Tech)
Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33434.msg423812#msg423812
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2011, 06:52:39 pm »
I've always doubted my logic and strategy but maybe I should trust it more...

Offline pervepic

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33434.msg423837#msg423837
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2011, 07:25:37 pm »
This loss is obviously extremely stupid and almost a copy of a loss to the same person 2 rounds ago (seemingly a perfect counter deck, but there wasn't enough quanta to meet Discord, again), but still it was well-deserved loss, because nobody paid attention to the quanta problem in time, again. I was aware of that problem and put additional (and our last) Pendulum in before the deadline, but somehow I forgot that the difference between upped and unupped wall is 2 not 1. I don't know from where I took that unupped walls cost 6 not 7. But now it doesn't matter anyway, hopefully there is a chance that we can even remember that Discord is a dangerous card (I wouldn't be too optimistic about that though  :) ). There was a statistic some time ago which showed that decks with Discord win about 70-80 per cent of the games in war.
The Owls are not what they seem.

 

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