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Offline justaburdTopic starter

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round 3 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46656.msg1039753#msg1039753
« on: February 07, 2013, 07:15:25 pm »
:air Elbirnvs:death rob77dp
:air Jen-ivs:earth bripod
:darkness ddevans96vs:air Bloom
:air Gen. kevvs:light Kuroaitou
:fireAcsabi44vs:air justaburd
:time BunKeRvs:airAnnaMall

Deckbuilding: Duel phase has started
Duels: Fighting ends!

Notes:
The element needs to be posted in your secret section. It will be made public once deckbuilding ends.


(note from kev, copypasta :P)
We'll use this topic (and chat) to discuss who should take which deck with what build, etc.  As I said in the Deck Ideas thread, you are ultimately responsible for your deck choice each round.  I will not be choosing your deck for you (though I hope you'll listen to the opinions of your teammates and I  ;D).  Part of deckbuilding is choosing roles for each player.  It makes more sense to include who should be Lt for the round as a part of the deckbuilding discussion as the Lt gets three extra ups.  Likewise, we have a decision to make each round on whether to make use of the Berserker ability, etc.  In future rounds we will also need to discuss s/d/c/p.  All of these discussions occur concurrently, and we'll use a thread like this as well as chat to facilitate the discussion.

Spoiler for Member roles reminders:
General - uses nine ups
- Lieutenant - uses six ups
- Strategist - may remove up to six cards from his deck before each duel. Each duel must have a legal deck, and his full deck must also be legal.
- Berserker - discard 1, 2 or 3 cards from the Vault during deckbuilding. The Berserker may use 1, 3 or 4 extra upgrades respectively.
- Quartermaster - if the Quartermaster plays in a battle, each winner from their team may claim 1 card from their element by relinquishing 3 of their salvage, or 2 salvage if the Quartermaster wins. Limit of two cards per person. Teams may not claim cards they already have at least 6 copies of.
- Standard Bearer - salvages N more cards and discards N fewer cards, where N is the number of wins their team has had that round.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 07:24:21 pm by justaburd »
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Offline kev

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Re: round 3 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46656.msg1039799#msg1039799
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2013, 09:06:13 pm »
I've been in every War in a variety of roles, and I can say with certainty that our success as a team depends on our ability to communicate.  Hearing a variety of perspectives on my matchup will help me decide on my deck and might give me guidance on how to play it.  I assembled a team of vets rather than going the 1-bid-per-player route for this very reason.  I know it can be difficult to find time during some rounds; just do your best.  At the very least, I hope each of you can find time to say "I'm super busy this round and won't be able to contribute matchup thoughts much at all, but I'll be back on to select my deck after hearing thoughts from everyone."
There wasn't as much time for discussion last round as I would've liked.  It worked out for us just fine, but the more time we have to discuss deck options, the better our results will be.  Please try to have initial thoughts written 48 hours into deckbuilding each round at the very latest.  Bonus points for earlier. ;)  That gives us two days to discuss, finalize, sdcp, add everything to vault, etc.

Countdown to 48 hour mark: was here



- If you didn't post much during deckbuilding in the first two rounds because you haven't had the time: no worries.  :P  Take care of rl and post when you have time.

- If you didn't post much during deckbuilding in the first two rounds because you are worried it won't be additive and it seems like we have things under control:  you're dead wrong.  I really, really, really wanna hear what all five of you have to say re: matchups.  If you say something wrong or boneheaded or you end up mindgating wrong, who cares?  It looks like the worst case scenario of you speaking up is you learning something you can apply next War.  ;)  Difficult problems are easiest to solve through a variety of diverse points of view. 

Offline AnnaMall

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Re: round 3 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46656.msg1039801#msg1039801
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2013, 09:08:20 pm »
Opponents opponents

 :time fights: :aether :life :gravity :fire :light
 :death fights: :entropy :darkness :life :light :earth
 :earth fights: :death :gravity :entropy :darkness :fire GEN
 :darkness fights: :water :earth :entropy :aether GEN :death GEN
 :light fights: :water :death :gravity :time :life GEN
 :fire fights: :life :time :aether :earth GEN :water GEN
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 11:26:36 pm by AnnaMall »

Offline justaburdTopic starter

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Re: round 3 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46656.msg1039863#msg1039863
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2013, 11:46:10 pm »
vs :death I've always seen death's threat to air being skull shield and poison. Blocks damsels and lower atk stuff, chance to kill dragons with rng hax efficiency. That said, who even uses those anymore? As for poison, we do have 2 purify. Have we used those yet?
vs :earth Seems to have an interesting lineup. No comment?
vs :dark sancstall seems like a really good choice vs them
vs :light With accel, I think this might be a nice catatitans one? I dunno.
vs :fire I wanted to do bonair or hurricane
vs :time No comment. I got mindgated pretty hard last time. Makes me want to rng a deck to send.
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Re: round 3 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46656.msg1039867#msg1039867
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2013, 11:49:46 pm »
 :death Brings lots of creatures, even domins seem rushy. Logical choice seems go with a heavy CC deck, with flying OE (7hp makes it pretty CC resistant), Tstorm to cover for fractals and water duo for the puries.

 :light Pugons is a very scary deck, that can be stally with dims or rushy with lightnings. Lots of stalls of all kinds. 2 Ts should go in each deck vs them to counter the rols. I believe I like dim pugons with otk potential here (accounting for diam too, might mean we need to salvage PU)

 :earth Tough one here. They have some solid diverse decks. Did some testing along with jen yesterday and seems a 2 nymph is a good option

 :darkness I believe pestal is always a prime option vs us

 :time Fire duo, earth duo, ghostmare are their best xenotesters.

 :fire Based on a very thorough vault report by jen-i the lightstall is a nice move here. Can counter hard posionbolt, firestall(provided we are fatter), stallfaster, bonebolt and can face trouble by fractix phoenix decks and maybe darkduo (Testing pending on those assumptions). Lightstall tests as predicted, beats most decks easy, is a matter of luck to get the refl in the matches it is important, wins but not with 3-0 darkduo,immo rush and bow. I dont expect to see from fire a creature based deck vs us, thats why I think lightstall is important here. Mods and discussion for fatness
Spoiler for deck used in testing:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5lg 5lg 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5og 5og 5og 5oh 5oh 5oh 5oh 5oh 5oh 5ol 5ol 5ol 5ol 5on 5on 5on 5on 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 7k2 7k2 7k2 8pq
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 12:28:03 am by AnnaMall »

Offline Jen-i

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Re: round 3 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46656.msg1039907#msg1039907
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2013, 01:30:23 am »
:death - my leaning is to run Bone Air against death - they've been leaning heavily on their creatures to this point - their creatures (except dragons) all die to Shockwave - I'd probably consider running Flying OE with the deck - in part because it give it a little extra damage - but also because I suspect that they'll be running their dark duo at us.

:fire - Mall says that Light Stall is our best play considering the state of Fire's Vault - assuming that I'm correct about their Vault - I'll also assume that Mall is correct about what deck beats it.

:light - Flying Titans might be a solid choice here - either Catapults or Accel, Dim Shield Stall also seems to be a solid option. Their likely to remain scared of a UG deck, considering my win last round but also have to consider the Fractal rush they faced last round. I suspect they'll run PUagons as well.

:darkness - I keep recommending grabbow - my opinion remains unchanged (I'll put more thought into this later)

:time - there's an insane part of me that says we should send BoneAir again - they will not be playing a counter deck this time. Shadow Dragons is also an option (I need to put more though here too)

:earth:
1) 2 Nymphs
make pills-> damsels for EQ resistance
Mall's suggestion
Quanta a tiny bit slower but ticking dmg makes a difference
2) Fractal Damsels
3) Mall's Mono

I'm open for feedback on any of these decks as options - I'm looking for something that beats Immortal, EQ and Pulvy - if you think I'm missing something that I need to consider facing in earth please mention that as well.

Likely tomorrow I'll come up with some builds of these deck ideas - unless other people beat me to it!
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 02:46:16 am by Jen-i »
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Re: round 3 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46656.msg1039980#msg1039980
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2013, 04:47:24 am »
 :time I also had the wacky thought of sending BoneAir a third time, but I think Sanc Stall is our best bet against Time. I disagree with sending Sanc Stall vs  :fire as I feel they may come heavy deflag to counter our 'perm heavy' stereotype.

 :death I suspect either the dark duo or their Psion deck to bypass our many shields, haven't decided what I want to play here yet

 :fire Hurricane. I think it's unexpected and counters much of what they bring. (See reasoning in  :time thoughts)

 :light Fractalagons from last round, except the Dim version :P
Spoiler for Troll Dimes:
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Deck import code : [Select]
5of 5of 5of 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 622 622 622 622 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 8pu

 :earth Jen likes 2 Nymphs, just so happens I do too

 :darkness there's only 11 pillar/pends in their Ghostmare, meaning they had to discard at least 4 cards from it. yeah they probably have spares, but it's unlikely they'll send ghostmare agaisnt us. In that case, I don't know if this is entirely possible, but if it is, I'm leaning towards Catatitans with both Cata and Accele from salvage, and make this match the Strategist.

Plz help me make this better
Spoiler for Hidden:
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55s 55s 55s 55s 55s 55s 55t 55t 561 561 561 561 562 5of 5of 5og 5oi 5oi 5oi 5oi 5oi 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 74i 74i 74i 8pl

Edit: If doing this puts too much strain on the S/D, then never mind. I'll just take the grabbow and stomp them with it.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 12:35:25 am by Bloom »
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Offline Jen-i

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Re: round 3 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46656.msg1039997#msg1039997
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2013, 06:54:14 am »
Results of Jen's Testing so far:

Lt. Version of 2 Nymphs
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5f6 5f6 5f6 5f6 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5of 5of 5of 5og 5ol 5on 5on 5on 5on 5p0 5p0 5pu 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 8po


As I said the three things I'm looking to counter are Immortal, EQ and Pulvy.

8-0 vs Immortal
    The deck is very fast - 8-10 turns to get a win, its not long enough for Immortal to have lots of surplus earth and its too much burst damage for a Miracle to extend the game for very long (Miracleing with 60-70 HP remaining is not very efficient)

5-0 vs Pulvy Rush Deck
     I'm not sold on this being the greatest Pulvy deck - but its the only one they've fielded so far. And although it lost last turn it is possible they recover it for this match up. Unfortunately for them Deflag trumps Pulvy - no game in testing was close.

4-1 vs EQ RT Deck
    I really like this deck - although it lost its match-up last round and it's possible earth discarded the deck. EQ and RT are a brutal combination and with the expense of my creatures I expected a more even match up. In all four cases I won by 1-2 turns. It is likely the AI struggled with targetting its CC - Reverse Testing will be key in determining the value of 2 Nymphs in this match up.

This far in I just decided to keep testing against the other decks that earth has fielded so far:
5-0 vs Adrenastaves
    This result should not be surprising - with no means of slowing the OTK damage of the deck Adrenastaves just cannot keep up with the damage 2 Nymphs puts out. I won on two occasions without exploding a single gas - deflagged or double shockwaved every Staff the A.I. got in play

8-2 vs Psion Bolt
     I was sure this deck would give 2 Nymphs a run for its money - Bolts should wreck havoc on the Nymphs - however I was surprised at the damage the dragons add to the deck. The version of the deck they ran in round #2 trading some dragons and lightnings for 6 Dims should be even weaker - it gives me targets for the deflags and already packs lots of bypass damage.

4-1 vs General's Grabbow
     I decided to test this deck because I knew I would get crushed - and I did, the first game. However shockwave kills most of its creatures and UG damage builds up very quickly once a nymph enters play.

5-5 vs Golem
     I suppose the deck has to have a weakness somewhere - fast damage, loads of PC and that bloody nymph. Even then the games are close - it often came down to his nymph entering play and me having the double shockwave to kill it.


Note: I'll still be doing some reverse testing - and take some time to look at the other decks I listed previously - however this is currently a strong frontrunner for my consideration. I'll also need to build a Pulvy EQ deck to test against - unless someone has a reasonable deck already built for which they'd like to share the code.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 02:53:12 pm by Jen-i »
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Re: round 3 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46656.msg1040058#msg1040058
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2013, 02:58:27 pm »
Light Matchup
I've thought a little more about Light's deck from last round - to me it says they (like everyone else) fear us UG and wings - that fear has to be enhanced due to 2 Nymphs' win last round. In addition due to their loss to Fractal Damsels last round they're going to be looking for a means of beating that as well.

I suspect this leads them to playing decks with Upped Mirror Shields (the 1 DR helps greatly against massed Damsels, and shuts down Unstable Gas entirely).

From the decks they've played in the last two rounds there are 2 that meet this criteria:
1) PU Dragons (w/ Bolts)
2) Fire Stall

My recommendation would be to play this deck
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5oc 5oc 5oc 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 61r 61r 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 624 624 7ms 7ms 7ms 7mv 7mv 7mv 7mv 7mv 7mv 8pu


The dragons high HP give Fire Stall a tougher time (although I haven't tested to see if this means a win). It puts the hurt on PU Dragons (6-1 in testing so far)

If you look at Light's decks so far they have not run much PC at all. I think our Dims would likely be safe.

Fire Matchup
I played a matching game with Fire's "available" decks this round here's what I'm thinking.
The following two are the two guesses in which I have the most confidence
:timeFractrixMassed creatures is a great counter to Reverse Time - and I'd expect some deflags to counter Dials
:lifeRaging Bone WallLife has run a fair number of creature decks
:airDark DuoPhoenix are resistant to our CC, they fly and Steals give them additional PC against UG
:aetherFire StallThey'll likely be looking for bypass damage and I'm guessing don't want to repeat Fractrix from last round
:earthGrabbow or Fire StallI'd rate the Grabbow more highly, there's got to be some concern about EQ and Pulvy here
:waterDisco SplashI'm least confident of this deck by a significant margin - I only put it here because its not assigned anywhere else

I think preparing to face Phoenix and PC is likely our best bet. But the ideal deck would match up well against both Fire Stall and their Dark Duo
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 02:55:49 pm by Jen-i »
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Re: round 3 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46656.msg1040081#msg1040081
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2013, 04:34:20 pm »
Usual drill.  Haven't looked at any other recommendations yet.  I'm going to try to emphasize decks/cards that teams haven't seen yet or decks/cards they might believe to be eliminated.  I'm probably going to fail and fall back on our presets, but I'd love to see creative options from the team.

:fireAcsabi44 - I fought alongside Acs in War 2.  Underrated player; if War 6 saw teams of 7 players rather than 6, you might be strategizing with Acs this round.  Team Fire is doing things differently: each player has one assigned role throughout War.  Acs is their Lt, so we'll be seeing six ups.

Most teams are leery of fielding low hp critters against us and I think Fire will be no exception.  For that reason I sorta expect to see poisonbolt or their light stall coming.  My first thought was grabbow, which does well against BW and can crush Light Stall before it gets set up (we could also tweak in a purify and/or mirror).  But then I realized this is an accelatitans dream!  They've shown ZERO RTs, Eternities, Freeze, and BB combined.  They had one AM in their disc splash, but they lost with that.  Seldom do things line up like this.  Bonus points that it'd be fair for them to assume our titan deck is dead.


:death rob77dp - As I think about it more, I like taking a 34-card Light Stall rather than Bonair.  Here's why:
- more cc than Bonair
- they don't ever stall.  34-cards will get the job done, and being able to have added consistency in our light stall is rare and provocative.
- Shantu is hiding discords
- We now have hidden mirrors in case they resurrect the psion/lightning deck from R1.


:air Gen. kev vs :light Kuroaitou - Last round I recommended dim fractalgons and we went with it, less the dims.  We still haven't shown dims, so a dim deck continues to be my recommendation.  We can either use the dim fractalgon preset or create what'd essentially be a dim splash deck.


:time BunKeR - Last round I recommended dim fractalgon against time, largely on the grounds they hadn't seen us use many perms.  That's even more true now that it's been two rounds and we've used 0 UGs and 0 Dims.  I still like dim fractalgon (and we can salvage dims from last round, so we could use them in both the Light and Time matchups).

But, there's a chance Time will field the same deck against us as last round, and it had two deflags.  They used deflags in a second deck and steals in a third last round (but lost with both).  If they stay paranoid about our perms, despite us not having shown many at all, a dim deck is probably the wrong route.  Jen recommended Shadow Dragons last round, and that's a good option here as well.  I suspect this matchup will need some testing.  When in doubt, do something unexpected. ;)


:darkness ddevans96 - I hinted earlier that from what I know of Team Darkness generally, they are pessimistic and will assume we're taking preset, superpowered decks that squash their strongest strategies.  I was talking about dd specifically.  Since it appears Team Dark is a democracy and we're 2-0 using our Light Stall, I fell confident dd will build against that deck specifically.

Last round I chose Hurricane because I expected them to try to counter our Light Stall with their grabbow, but they used acceladolls instead.  I think my thought process was correct but my conclusion was wrong.

Their best options against our Light Stall this round (in order from most --> least likely imo) are:
- a ridiculous sized Light Stall of their own, maybe with Strat ability they couldn't use last round.
- acceladolls again.  Could be salvaged.
-  their grabbow.  I think this tests well against our Light Stall but I'm not 100% sure.

Spoiler for What would you think about this?:
TTW = 6.67... over a 3 game test.  They've shown 0 mirrors and couldn't salvage any last round.
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5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5og 5ol 5om 5om 5om 5om 5om 5om 5p0 7n5 7n5 7ng 8po

Tough matchups for Dark this round.  Hope we can capitalize.


:earth bripod - The good news is Erf faces  :darkness, :entropy, and :gravity this round, which makes it moderately less likely we'll face an Immortal.  I can't really tell what's going on in Team Earth, so I don't have a lot of conviction in what I have to say here.  My best guess is we'll see Adrenastaves or their Pulvy Rush.
- Adrenastaves isn't bothered by Wings or BW and staves have 7hp so they're resistant to our cc.
- Pulvy rush has high hp critters and can knock out our shields.  They might've noticed we have problems against perm control and EQ by watching our matches with Gravy.

It's sorta bothered me that we don't have Permas in Hurricane but it actually works out well here cuz lesser reliance on perms.  Toadfish > Adrenastaves and Freeze/Sw > everything.  I think we'd tweak for 6 Toadfish, fewer perms and more quanta.

Offline AnnaMall

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Re: round 3 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46656.msg1040111#msg1040111
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2013, 07:20:08 pm »
Light Matchup
I've thought a little more about Light's deck from last round - to me it says they (like everyone else) fear us UG and wings - that fear has to be enhanced due to 2 Nymphs' win last round. In addition due to their loss to Fractal Damsels last round they're going to be looking for a means of beating that as well.

I suspect this leads them to playing decks with Upped Mirror Shields (the 1 DR helps greatly against massed Damsels, and shuts down Unstable Gas entirely).

From the decks they've played in the last two rounds there are 2 that meet this criteria:
1) PU Dragons (w/ Bolts)
2) Fire Stall

My recommendation would be to play this deck
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The dragons high HP give Fire Stall a tougher time (although I haven't tested to see if this means a win). It puts the hurt on PU Dragons (6-1 in testing so far)

If you look at Light's decks so far they have not run much PC at all. I think our Dims would likely be safe.

Fire Matchup
I played a matching game with Fire's "available" decks this round here's what I'm thinking.
The following two are the two guesses in which I have the most confidence
:timeFractrixMassed creatures is a great counter to Reverse Time - and I'd expect some deflags to counter Dials
:lifeRaging Bone WallLife has run a fair number of creature decks
:airDark DuoPhoenix are resistant to our CC, they fly and Steals give them additional PC against UG
:aetherFire Stall or Poison BoltThey'll likely be looking for bypass damage and I'm guessing don't want to repeat Fractrix from last round
:earthGrabbow or Fire StallI'd rate the Grabbow more highly, there's got to be some concern about EQ and Pulvy here
:waterDisco SplashI'm least confident of this deck by a significant margin - I only put it here because its not assigned anywhere else

I think preparing to face Phoenix and PC is likely our best bet. But the ideal deck would match up well against both Fire Stall and their Dark Duo

Going +1 fractal +1upp wyrm and -3 drags gives more space in deck for quanta, offers versatility vs firestall and probably reaches an otk Q range faster too, just off my head no solid evidence (testing)yet
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 07:41:52 pm by AnnaMall »

Offline Jen-i

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Re: round 3 deck discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46656.msg1040150#msg1040150
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2013, 09:02:20 pm »
Good call Mall - I like this new version of the deck!
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