Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 15, 2011, 10:55:13 pm
The event card is here: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32499.0.html
And we have match ups against: :earth :entropy :water :time :fire :light :life and :death . How we're going to divide who will play each round, I guess we'll figure out later.
So, 8 matches, 8 decks. I'll try to make a thread with all the decks used so far, which might help us decide what to take against who. Also, the other teams have more than likely noticed our heavy use of PC, so we should expect decks that don't rely on permanents too much.
As for our salvage, it seems like 6 Dim Shields, then 2 Steals, 1 Cloak and 3 Vampire Daggers are the way we are headed ( Losing decks shownhere (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32230.msg439557#msg439557), feel free to take another look and come up with something else).
(Also, we should be getting a few details of both :light and :aether 's vaults, kev said he would randomise them Monday. I don't know whether anyone was planning to, but I'm pretty sure that the new rule (7.2 Backroom deals and sharing of information) was made for this event card, so that we can't swap this info with other teams)
Anyway, those were a lot of words, good work again for last round, and lets try to better it here! :)
Duel phase has started (For deckbuilding and Salvages stuff)
Post by: pervepic on October 15, 2011, 11:12:29 pm
:earth - Certainly Earthquakes. They may use just simlple mono with Dragons or they may use :light duo for stalling. Also, a duo with :darkness is possible, if they want to get rid of our Wings that way.
:entropy - if they have Pandebonium and they probably have, then they are gonna use that.
:water - Massive cc with Bolts and Freezes, also those Rewinds are possible. Can use :entropy duo and :light stall.
:time - Rewinds and they want to have permanent control.
:fire - a stall duo with :light with the massive cc.
:life - Poison, a duo with :fire or :entropy (Discords, Antimatters)
:death - Pandebonium, also using Antimatter there maybe. Plagues, Poison.
:light - something with :entropy is possible. Or :fire stall.
Post by: Bloom on October 16, 2011, 12:25:08 am
But thats not important. Decks are :p I'll add a deck idea for a few opponents when I get home tonight.
Against :water I think this deck will be perfect.
We can go out on a limb and say that :earth will use EQ. So this deck will counter an EQ Rush.
Post by: Legit on October 16, 2011, 12:30:00 am
Also, I don't mind what element I play against.
A possible strategy is to place General and Lieutenant against Earth and Entropy, as they both went 2-0 the previous round. Although I doubt our placement really matters in the long run.
vs Earth. Gravity/Earth duo with Gravity Shield, Pulverizer, BB, and some creatures. Possibly EA. I'd recommend taking the fractal firefly/hope deck. If General/Lieutenant plays here, he can upgrade pillars/pends to protect against EQ.
I don't think Earth will use a plain Graboid/RT GotP whatever rush, because any deck with 6 Wings will pretty much win.
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 16, 2011, 03:06:50 am
I guess everyone else can be done randomly as usual, although if the fire slot is open, I'll be sure to put you there Bloom ;)
Below is just my deck brainstorming.
This is the only true creatureless deck we have. PC is bad, reflective shields are death. Maybe against :water since usually they are more control oriented, and this might just be faster. Depends on what they decide to duo with though.
Basic Quinted Dragons model (could probably be built much better). This might work against :time. Permanents in there are just because they fitted, getting rid of some could make sense. We can also add 6 DimShields.
Poison and cheap creatures. Might beat out :life or :earth
This deck has very little reliance on permanents. Fractal Golden Dragons could help to beat out a stall
And yeah, those are the decks I'm thinking we should bring this round, since I'd guess that other teams will stop running permanents and start relying on CC. (Aether splash needs modification really badly though, just call it a placeholder/concept). Plus more obviously, those just jump out at me.
Post by: Robotocracy on October 16, 2011, 03:52:10 pm
Post by: TuckingFypo on October 16, 2011, 04:53:01 pm
I'd like to note that out of the winning decks from round 1 that we have recorded, 5 of them used nova and 4 of them used discord. I think that makes it fairly certain that those cards will be popping up again.Since in Round 1 we used mostly creature spam and lots of PC, the other teams are more likely to be control oriented this round.
I think that creatureless deck is better off against :death or :entropy (assuming Pandebonium or Bonebolt). Fahrenheit is dead against Bone Walls but Firebolts and UG's are not. We also have less of a chance to encounter reflective shields.
In the Quinted Dragons deck against :time, are the Quints only to counter RT's? If so, I think it'd be better to use Elite Wyrms instead; they're decently cheap (so not a problem against RT), hit about just as hard, and let us have more card slots instead of the Quints.
I think :earth will use Shriekers/Graboids with EQ and RT? I'm not seeing Gravity Shield due to our threat of PC. How about something like this:
Wyrms are upped.
Basically one of our Air/Fire duo's, without the deflags, a pend split (with maybe split upgrades, if we have any to spare).
I think that we should at least put either the General or Lieutenant against :earth, since he has more upgrades to counter EQ's (that's what I think, but I still put :earth down there). Bloom is fighting against fire. We should all still be able to choose ourselves but here's a random way to do it if anyone's undecided. Pick one!
:light :water :entropy :life :death :time :earth
Post by: pervepic on October 16, 2011, 05:53:35 pm
I'd like to note that out of the winning decks from round 1 that we have recorded, 5 of them used nova and 4 of them used discord. I think that makes it fairly certain that those cards will be popping up again.Yep, that's why I suggested to add additional Wings to the Vault to block Discords and Arsenics, but who listens to me :(. Anyway, It shouldn't be a very big problem, because we can save them at least if our deck happens to lose.
I agree with TF that creatuless deck against :entropy at least is probably the best. They just have insane amount of cc. They may play Pandebonium, but they may play some sort of Antimatter stall or duo with :light as well. I replaced Fogs with Wings there for Weapon blocking purposes:
About :death: I tested that their big stall deck that they used in the previous round loses to our Phoenix deck. But Pandebonium doesn't. So...Purifies are needed. Now there are 2 possibilites: to put them into Graboid deck or to use a Water deck. I added Wings there and removed Dragonflies, because they are not necessary. Also added 1 more Owl in order to diminish deckout possibilities.
This one is also possible against :death and probably it would be even better, but it's possible to take when that take is not necessary in somewhere else:
Against :time and can be played by me or DD. Rewind Vampires if you want :) :
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 16, 2011, 10:51:39 pm
(Drafts)
DrunkDestroyer Vs :earth
Maybe throw another fog in there?
Pervepic vs :time
Seems quite reliant on devourers, meaning that in a few games Vamps just sat in hand waiting (having 6 and only being able to play 3-4 in a game). Won 3/4 against AI3 though, with iffy devourer draws in a few of them. (Loss was against 2nd turn Otyugh. Worth noting I beat a Pandemonium Voodoo and Pharaoh Scarab, although, again, these are AI3s)
BatCountry vs :entropy
Not much to say here. jumpoffduck's Fire bolt calculator is worth taking a look at here: http://jumpoffduck.co.cc/elements/bolt.htm . My antivirus denied me access to here, (same problem I've been having with elementsforum.co. cc, and wiki. co .cc 's - thats extremely irritating). Pretty sure its safe though, helped me out a few times in tourneys (You can work with opponents health, different bolts, upgrades ect, and it considers cost of extra bolts and everything. Not updated to quanta cap though
TuckingFypo vs :death
This deck was built to deal with death, I'd rather use this than the grabbow which goes against anything. I didn't really have a particular reason for putting you here TF, you just came to my mind for this matchup. I might pull this deck out and do some testing against death later.
From this point I don't actually have decks, just match ups.
Bloom vs :fire
Robotocracy vs :life
Legit vs :light
plastiqe vs :water
(Unless anyone has preferences. I put BatCountry against entropy because I'm fun like that - I really don't mind switching people around. Almost a shame that only one person can play fire though :P )
Again, these are drafts. Might take a few decks out for testing against last wars decks and successful decks this war (although we don't have a lot of data for that unfortunately)
And if anyone might find this of interest, Numbers from starting vault: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18530.msg251962.html (From War #2, mainly just for curiousity's sake)
Post by: pervepic on October 16, 2011, 11:16:48 pm
When going against :earth I would certainly include all Damselflies and at least 1 pair of Wings. Not sure about Wyrms though.
Just another funny idea against :earth : if they start to throw Basilisk Bloods, just Rewind your own critter, if they start to throw creatures, Rewind theirs :) :
Post by: BC on October 17, 2011, 02:44:28 am
Post by: BC on October 17, 2011, 02:59:18 am
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 17, 2011, 04:41:40 am
The decks we have played so far are not hugely hindered by discord while they are by pandebonium, but Entropy is likely to be packing millions of them, so we can't be too sure. I would guess they would try and stall us somehow (and that deck looks set to stall faster/better). Death seems more likely to take poison, I would rather place my purifies there tbh. (not meaning that we can't try to combine/take a different deck vs entropy)
I like the :time splash against Earth actually, its almost a shame to only have two pillar stacks, but it should work. (Missing one upgrade if its for General use, has two too many for Liutenant)
I think the death duo could work against :life (the only worry for it might be fire stall)
And the Aether/Light trio should work against Light or Water (prefferably Light)
Biggest worry for me is :fire , because they can both rush and stall. Quanta cap is good, but won't change the fact that firestall is a damn good deck, and its difficult to plan for both rush and stall.
Thoughts?
( And while I've still got over 12 hours (of which I plan to sleep for most of them), I am leaving and I have no knowledge of any internet access for the next 3 days (Saying this now so I don't forget - I'll be posting again soon ; ) ). Meaning that someone is going to have to update the vault accordingly (both the deck compliance and the Salvage/Discard page - I've already put the opponents decks and results into the latter, but the actual cards salvaged have to be entered). Also, if someone could be awesome, telling whoever team :earth (or whichever team) just to tell me their schedule and that I'll be a little late would be great. Once the round has started, we don't want them knowing a General's coming their way )
Post by: pervepic on October 17, 2011, 01:21:33 pm
@ DD: are member roles set already? I think it would be better decide that later when decks are ready finally. And Posion against :life and who heals and has Poison itself, not sure about that. But I'll put decks up later and salvages too, have a nice trip!
For me it's very unclear too what to choose, since we have seen so little so far, but there are not many teams who can just outrush us, so they want to control our creatures no matter what. For me its pretty unclear what to choose against :life, :water, :earth, because they all can stall, have Antimatters, Poison; :earth may me use rush as well (along with control). Seems that against :fire Phoenixes should be OK at least, but that decks can't be a copy of our previous deck. And against :light - I just have no idea - maybe really use that trio that DD suggested. If we use an :aether duo against :water (quinted Dragons), then that would lose against their stall they used several times against :air. Actually I'm thinking that the only way :water can survive against those decks we used in the previous rounds, are Antimatters (if they don't use fire, of course). But than it that case quinted Dragons would be good (but only then). And :life is just a question mark. Maybe to try :entropy against them?
About :water: it is possible to go with many upgraded Wyrms, Deflags and doubled Owls. When Wyrms are Antimattered, you shoot them. This decks should kill stalls too and would be for DD to use.
Against :fire:
Against :water: . I can play with that too, but then :time deck must be changed.
I don't know, but maybe against :earth: Mono-air is possible too, but I really like the polyfunctionality of Rewinds here.
If DD still chooses to go against :earth, then I must go against :water and somone else should take :time using something like this: But I think that it's not so good as with 6 upped Vamps.
If DD chooses to go against :water, then anti-earth can be this:
I also think that taking this deck against :death would be better than taking :water- duo, because this deck can actually more likely kill Pandebonium and doesn't have to play so much for deckout (as :water duo sometimes does): TF should decide what deck to pick.
This one still possible against :earth: Just to spam critters and if some of them are stucked, play another one quickly. DD has to pick a deck too.
I also added additional Wings here as promised:
Against :light : Still slow.
Since I have no idea what :life is gonna play, I'm suggesting a deck with Discords ^-^ :
Improved Pandemonium may be good here, since life loves to spam also.
Wait, if scout said that :light has Disspiation Shields then that means :entropy stall. Our deck could have hard times there. What if we use UG deck against :light (I know how stupid it sounds but at least it would be totally unexpected) and Bat could use Graboids and then TF goes with :water-duo? But again, :light can have :fire stall too and I don't know what to do then.
Edit: I have an idea against :light :
Post by: Legit on October 17, 2011, 11:22:32 pm
The vs Water deck would probably work too, but I would a couple wings in case of rush/our creatures get frozen and we can't draw a deflag or OE (depending on source of freeze).
Fighting fire with fire...Not my first choice but I don't have a better suggestion. As previously stated, the rush + stall predicament causes us to guess or throw in a mediocre deck that might beat both.
for the vs Light deck add more Air cards (too many air pends), and make it 42 cards.
Also the darkness duo vs time, it might work except I fear ghostmare will beat it. So here's a nice little ghostmare counter:
Wait, if scout said that :light has Disspiation Shields then that means :entropy stall. Our deck could have hard times there.Actually it was Dimension Shields. Light has 5 Dimensional Shields.
Post by: pervepic on October 17, 2011, 11:35:00 pm
Now :entropy is the final pain with its Pandemonium. Grabix probaly won't kill that. But now if our :fire stall goes agains :light and that seems to make sense for everybody, then we could have some Wings left. So, Poison against poison... And be careful with Antimatter when you play that...
Now here are 4 Wings and Grabix, if it goes against :death has 3. And that's it, we don't have more.
A possible :entropy deck:
I don't know if 1 BE is good enough there. It's a good card - like a Pulverizer. And sometimes this can be also a creature control - like in case of Otys. Life has played Otys with Momentum against air, btw. Put now there is also a Pandemonium for masses, Maxwell too. Perhaps it's enough.
Post by: TuckingFypo on October 18, 2011, 04:00:17 am
I disagree that we should use the :fire stall against :light though.
I think the deck against :water won't need Wings; Team :water does have dragons which are airborne and relatively bulky to counter our CC. Also, how about we use 5 Dragons and 3 Elite Wyrms instead of 2 and 6? They're bulkier and that way we can have 3 more upgrades against :time.
Post by: Bloom on October 18, 2011, 05:00:51 am
Post by: pervepic on October 18, 2011, 02:06:43 pm
@TF: Well, upgraded Purifies purify a little more :) . And I don't have a clear answer when exactly to play them, but probably when they are most useful and can purify more and additional immediate Poison is not expected - when you just escaped from Arsenic and can play Wings, for excample, or when they have thrown much deadly Poisons already. Not so good to use them when you are not poisoned yet and Poison is to be expected.
:water decks should be changed. Now this is just too predictable. My point there was that using many Wyrms may counter Antimatter, but those :water Bolts just kill them with their 3 HP pretty early.
What to choose against :water then? Since they will have massive creature control, there are 3 possibilities: 1. many critters (Fractal deck), critterless (Fire stall), protected critters (Quinted Dragons). It is very similar thing against :light . Both, :water and :light have used Reflective Shields agains :air; that's why I replaced UG with Dragons in the stall deck. Just to force them to waste their Bolts on them. Both, :light and :water have stall decks, :water has used stall agains :air at least 2 times in previous wars. And it is probable that :light will choose :fire stall against us. But we can't fight with both stalls. Quinted Dragons lose to both, :fire and :water stalls. Fractal deck can beat some stalls if lucky (like :earth stall which is unlikely), but it loses to :fire and :water stalls. Our :fire stall can beat both, their :fire stall if lucky and :water stall. According to this consideration, if both teams :water and :light pick stalls, then it would be best to go against :water with :fire stall and against :light with the Fractal deck.
But how probable it is that they both pick stalls? :light - very likely. 1. They are in defensive mood after loss, it would be embarrassing for them to lose with the same strategy for us again. 2.They played non-stalls in the first round, which could indicate that they want people to prepare against similar things. :water - not sure. 1. They have seen our decks and their stall would lose agains our Phoenix deck. Bad thing is that their stall won against :death, so they want to use that again in the next round. And bad thing is also that their choices are quite limited - they are afraid of Wings and UG - it's bit risky to use a Novabow against us and to put reflective Shield there, because Wings could still block all the damage they want to do. Using a duo with :light would be better...Still, they can just simply throw Dragons and use cc at the same time.
That's kind of dilemma here...Even to get 1 point from this mess would be good. Now i'm inclined to use a :fire stall against :light, which is basically only real option to beat their :fire stall. But it can be a waste, because they can still choose Crusader-Discords, which is just game over for us (especially with Maxwells). But if we will choose that, then I think against :water a Hope deck would be best, because they can't be very quick too and Hope can't be exploded. Smarter people than me are needed to decide about all that.
Post by: Legit on October 18, 2011, 11:21:33 pm
According to this consideration, if both teams :water and :light pick stalls, then it would be best to go against :water with :fire stall and against :light with the Fractal deck.I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about the possible choices because we can really only guess (slightly educated) at what other teams will use. I support the above quote, simply because I agree with a lot of what Pervepic is saying and there is no way we can accurately predict what other teams will use, so going back and forth with all options is pointless.
Also, what do you guys think about 42 card stalls? Because I think it would be a good idea to add in 2 extra cards to have an edge on other stalls.
Post by: TuckingFypo on October 19, 2011, 01:43:42 am
DD vs :earth
Pervepic vs :time
Bloom vs :fire
Robocracy vs :life
We didn't have enough Maxwells. Not sure if it was the best choice but I replaced it with a Fog Shield.
TuckingFypo vs :death
BatCountry vs :entropy
Legit vs :light
Don't know about 42 cards. In previous wars, has anyone actually decked others out rather than deal 100 damage (albiet slowly)?
Plastique vs :water
I still feel a little iffy about :entropy, :light, and :water, although time's running out and I do sort of understand the reasons now. These decks were just put into our vault now, but anyone's free to change them. Might've messed up somewhere without me knowing, so it'd be great if someone could double check.
As for Salvages, I think we're going with 6 Dim Shields, 2 Steals, 3 Vamp Daggers, and a Cloak? That's what I put in for now.
air1 = BatCountry
air2 = Bloom
air3 = TuckingFypo
air4 = DrunkDestroyer
air5 = plastique
air6 = Pervepic
air7 = Legit
air8 = Robocracy
Post by: pervepic on October 19, 2011, 02:04:24 am
Salvages should be fine
Edit: one more thing: use upgraded Deadly Poisons instead of Spiders in the Poison deck. I also put Rewinds in the DDs deck, we just have to use em when it's a good moment.
@ Legit: don't worry, before deckout issues someone will get killed ;)
Please everybody, take decks from the Vault. I don't know why, but it gives "error codes" in some cases. Anybody knows the reason?
Ok, maybe I'll see mistakes if I put decks here once more:
1. BatCountry
2. Bloom
3. Tucking Fypo
4. Drunk Destroyer
5. Plastique
6. Pervepic
7. Legit
8. Robocracy
Pobably I'm starting to go crazy, but if anybody sees what's wrong with decks 1 and 5, call me.
Post by: TuckingFypo on October 19, 2011, 07:14:23 am
I just copy/pasta'd the deck codes from your post into the Vault again, and the decks seem fine now. :))
After I sleep and go to/come back from school, I should have ~30 minutes before the deadline. I'd say we're about done, but are there any last minute changes that could be needed?
Post by: plastiqe on October 19, 2011, 11:05:28 am
I tested the Fractal Fireflies against the decks that beat us in War III, overall I am less than confident in beating Water with it. I would prefer to switch to the 30 card Fire Bolt, and Legit you can go Fractal Fireflies vs Light if that's ok.
Post by: pervepic on October 19, 2011, 02:11:12 pm
This damn thing sais again that "you have used cards that do not exist" and blabla. This time about deck 7. Probly it is just good to ignore that.
Overall I think that decks look aesthetically good and no deck is too similar with the others ^-^
Post by: plastiqe on October 19, 2011, 10:01:42 pm
|
|
|
|
Post by: pervepic on October 19, 2011, 10:23:53 pm
Grats Blooooooom!!
Post by: Bloom on October 19, 2011, 10:31:15 pm
Post by: pervepic on October 20, 2011, 01:11:53 am
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 20, 2011, 06:01:25 am
And, nice one Bloom! Beating both Fire, and Antagon. If nothing else, we have to make sure that we don't deal with that disgusting red emblem on the top right corner of all our forums. (prefferably redecorating it to a pleasant light blue).
I'll edit in whatever duel time I arrange with MatyrX so that if anyone happens to be around, they can spectate.
Howdy,Terrible timing, but I'll try to show up
I was wondering if we could battle tomorrow 20 Oct 2011 @ 1730 - 1800 GMT, 1130 - 1200 Central Standard Time?
MartyrX
Post by: Robotocracy on October 20, 2011, 04:28:36 pm
My opponent ran a fire stall with healing. Everything I put out he killed. Argh. Lost 0 - 3.
Post by: plastiqe on October 20, 2011, 04:31:12 pm
Great job, Bloom!It is best of 5! You still have a chance, now go win 3 in a row for an epic comeback Bloom style!
My opponent ran a fire stall with healing. Everything I put out he killed. Argh. Lost 0 - 2.
Post by: plastiqe on October 20, 2011, 05:23:13 pm
Post by: pervepic on October 20, 2011, 05:24:23 pm
Post by: Robotocracy on October 20, 2011, 05:36:24 pm
Post by: BC on October 21, 2011, 06:57:03 pm
Luck was definitely not on my side on this one, although I really really wished those shockwaves weren't in there.
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 21, 2011, 08:14:55 pm
I have to go really soon - if xn0ize hadn't actually communicated this well enough with TF then I'd rather play with our player and their substitute - I like salvages.
Feel free to go ahead and play him if you think its the right thing to do (Use TF's deck obviously) although without really knowing what went on its a little harder to judge.
Oh, and sorry about the loss. FFff. Made two errors, but neither of them would have been enough to change the outcome.