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Offline AnnaMallTopic starter

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Rights and wrongs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48414.msg1058951#msg1058951
« on: April 11, 2013, 09:48:23 am »
The reasoning behind this thread is to leave some of our experiences for the next squad to build on. What we did right, what we did wrong, what might have been vaulted etc.
Also somepoints can be drawn about how we could have improoved.

Starting off with my own fails, primarily was bad deck choices on the first 3-4 rounds. I believe I started with something like 1-4. The biggest fail was that strat deck duo I used vs water. Failed on so many levels it forced me to write a "strat guide" to remind myself mainly. On a team level I think I was too arrogant  cocky at the begining and for that I apologise, especially to Kev...I should have never doubted you...

The auction worried me. I think jen deserved the max (before and as prooven afterwards), but I am not sure for the rest of us. Certainly I don't go for 7 in the game's stock market, for the simple reason I keep very low profile. Elb, bloom and burd could be bought cheaper too I believe. Kev overpayed for us but prooved right once more.

THE MOST important thing is activity. I was really worried pre-war joining a team full of americans, with my eurozone. Getting people in your team that are never online or people that are on often but never manage to meet is a disaster waiting to happen. Luckily my online time matched Jen's very well, Kev was often on, justa was nesting in chat and bloom, elbrin popped in often too.I think I only missed one of the important deckbuilding sessions.

What worked well was decided after heavy testing. Everybody did serious testing, exchanged opinions and made improovements accordingly. We had a very good idea what the outcome of the match could be as soon as we knew what deck we were facing. I could see an improovement here actually: We did not keep proper records of any testing we did. We set up a Gdoc for that and we never used it past round 1 or 2. Good recordings of stuff could have saved us a lot of time retesting same stuff after couple of rounds. On the flip side we did not use the same built often ever, usually each rounds deck was tailor modded.

Use event cards. Here Kev and Jen stepped up big time. Kev insisted on using the event card for gaining relics which gave us a formidable upps pillow to use later on. I thought at the moment it was a horribad idea *facepalm*. EC can be used for what they give (relics) or give you an edge to outpredict what deck your opponents might favor.

Vault management is key.  HUGE points to kev for insisting on vault building the way we did, about 1/3 of our success comes from that key moment and Jen's vault skills. Jen did some amazing vault work and managed to survive with only 3 cards penalty. Each round through some magic Jen managed to save few key cards for a new twist of an old deck or a new deck altogether. The down side of this on retrospect was that those "new" decks worked for a round but the next they were hammered. We did not vault certain types of decks that we thought we will salvage easily, that was not always the case. We managed to salvage PUs and Mirrors which was a must since vaultbuilding, but in retrospect you cannot rely on needed stuff that way. Also a probably bad idea was vaulting stuff for later rounds(vaulted 6 Quantum pills that were ditched in round3-4). Dunno if it is possible to know which converted cards are going to be essential soon eg mirrors. Another thing that haunted my mind since R1 was salvaging those dials for sancstall...did not insist salvaging at the time even though we discussed the idea. Imo after we saw the psiontall landslide, dials and mirrors would have made a great power house deck. We vaulted 2 bonairs and I am not so sure if doubling up worked in our favor, on the flip side losing with that DBH round 1 helped us a lot...need feedback on those 2 tricks

Kev knows this and I believe only kev does...I hated the democracy system, early on I let Kev know about it but props to Kev for ignoring me and leading us to 2nd place, thats what makes a great leader.

Mindgames, deckbuilding and predicting is something that depends on team chemistry and there is no way that I know off, to expect from the auction. Burd and Kev had a very unique take on deckbuilding different from each other, Bloom had an opinion that was voiced correctly, Elb had some points to add too and me and jen I believe were of similar molds with few exceptions(that bolt deck). Dunno if Kev expected this from the auction but all together we worked very efficiently. Also Burd stepped up big for some crazy support action :D

My highest expectations after joining air once more were top4. I dont believe :air has what it takes to be top tier but we overplayed our hands and placed second(huge upset pending :P) It was great serving alongside all of you, I dont regret a single moment and I believe we were the best war team I participated in.

PS:looking forward for 5 more replies here, I wont accept anything less :'(
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 07:03:20 pm by AnnaMall »

Offline justaburd

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Re: Rights and wrongs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48414.msg1059234#msg1059234
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2013, 05:01:52 pm »
* justaburd disappoints mall with a lack of a reply

Spoiler for I kid.:
Teamwise, I felt that we worked well together. Perhaps we'll get to do it again in the future.

That said, I also felt like it was mall and jen doing most of the work. So big thanks to both of you.

I'm not sure what to say. I think everyone understands what amount of work they put in vs how much they could have put in. And I think we all know where we stand in terms of what we need to improve.

It was a pleasure warring with you guys. And kev? Next time, fewer insta 7's. :P
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Offline kev

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Re: Rights and wrongs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48414.msg1059250#msg1059250
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2013, 06:24:43 pm »
I intend to post more in this thread once the War is won but I'm compelled to respond now because you're both so stupid.

Kev overpayed for us but prooved right once more.
That and Burd's comment are some of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever read.  I paid 5.75 cards more than the average team at auction and got the best team by a fucking enormous margin.  I got my players for a ridiculous clearance price despite announcing from the beginning that I wanted them.  I would rather have this team than five Masters ainec. 

All War long I've asked you to second guess me about everything.  But not this.  I was right and where we are right now is evidence.  Next War when you guys are Generals, you feel free to pay average prices, build yourself an average team, and finish with average placement.  But for now no more looking backwards.  R12 is about to start and we have a match to win.

Offline justaburd

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Re: Rights and wrongs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48414.msg1059438#msg1059438
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2013, 09:13:02 am »
Kev overpayed for us but prooved right once more.
That and Burd's comment are some of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever read.

I'm afraid that my burd self is having trouble comprehending :P
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Offline Jen-i

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Re: Rights and wrongs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48414.msg1061105#msg1061105
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2013, 04:09:28 am »
KK let me start by saying Kev overpaid for us. And no kev I'm not just being contrary for giggles, but let me explain.

There are two ways to place value on a player during the auction, market value and actual value. Actual value is the benefit a player is really going bring to your team, market value is what people are willing to pay for that player. I think kev hit the nail pretty much on the head on our actual value, but probably not our market value. I think he could have gotten some of the same players cheaper. I have no arguement at all about the team kev created, he's a genius! This is by a long shot the best team I've participated in, so thank you kev for assembling it and thank you the rest of you for what you brought to the table.

Our Team
This team is why this team did so well this war. It is often said, but bears repeating here. Success in war is marked chiefly by the activity of your team, being online regularly and contributing thoughts, ideas and insights on match-ups, vault management, event cards and other choices is key to a successful team. Fou things of note here I think:

Team Building - while I don't know how much time kev spent researching for team building I do know he spent significant time doing so. While we knew each other from working together on other projects it would not surprise me to learn that kev invited me to join his TPvP team as part of this process, nor would it surprise me to learn that he spent significant time reading posts and chatting with others on the team to discover the best group he could collect. The fact that our personalities meshed our deck building and match planning approaches often contrasted was no mistake, neither was the fact that everyone on the team was mature enough to deal with the inevitable conflicts stemming from our democratic approach. Essential too was the fact that our online time matched up quite well - I'm not sure if kev planned this, that sort of attention to detail would not surprise me.

Communication - I think the fact that we used both the forum and team chat to communicate was significant. Team chat allowed us to collaborate with each other live very well, but toward the end of each round would leave a mess on the Pad, and searching through chat for key links or ideas could often become a pain. But the fact that we could plan together, leave jokes for each other, complain about a match or otherwise share with each other live was a significant part of the collaborative process. The forum on the other hand was a far more sterile environment - but allowed us to organize and record more cogent and complete arguments or ideas. I think using both served us well - I found I often referred back to forum posts from previous rounds but never did so with stuff from chat.

Democracy - I agree with Mall - this drove me nuts for the first few rounds - in large part because with no prior relationships we are all struggling to find our place, to know what we can contribute and what others bring to the table. I imagine that someone with training in managing group process could have facilitated a smoother transition here, but kev choose people with the maturity to manage it on their own. The fact that so many voices contributed something each turn was significant, at times I felt my voice become too loud, but Mall or kev was often there to provide a counter argument. I sometimes wished that others would contribute more thoughts but all in all I think there was a significant amount of sharing, in large part facilitated because there was no decision maker that we would talk until we agreed.

Leadership - I wasn't really aware of the significance of this until I started writing this post, I knew that kev's commitment to our group process would at times mean that he held back from sharing his full thoughts - I can't imagine how hard that was, I know how hard it would be for me. But the result of this was that the rest of the team was forced to carry their share of the workload (again having picked the right team kev knew that that was how we would react). Early in the war I found myself checking my thoughts or tone with kev to make sure I wasn't coming off as pushy or belittling of anyone. In my opinion having that sort of sounding board allowed me to find my place in the group more quickly and minimize any conflict that might have occurred. The only improvement here I can think of is that we had no planned means of resolving a conflict, and while there was never any real flash point I haven wondered as the war progressed if some team member's grew silent as a means of minimizing conflict.

Right & Wrong Choices
Lots of choices get made over the course of a war, some significant, many aren't. Sometimes its hard to tell which is which in the midst of things - in hind sight here's some of our best and worst choices.

Vault Building - kev's call to go with 10 decks in the vault and to minimize quanta sources was an inspired move, the stress going with only 76 quanta sources was significant, however the flexibility it provided was essential to how well we did this war.

Deck Selection - the concept of choosing decks that fall into each category: rush, control, stall and break was essential to our success, having the number of decks we did that could effectively fit the break role was significant considering the number of stall decks that were used. I do think however we made a couple mistakes here. The inclusion of a 2nd Bone Air was probably not the best choice, if the purpose of having 10 decks was diversity then duplicating one of our decks was a mistake. Added to that we did not intentionally include enough rush options to our decks. We found ways to rush with what we had when we needed to, but the inclusion of one additional rush deck would have been nice.

Vault Management - I took too much responsibility here - in part that was because our democratic approach took longer to put together our decks each round, leaving us a short amount of time to deal with discards, salvage and conversion. I spent much of the war wishing we had salvaged our Sundials, or not converted our Reflective Shields, or Silences. More discussion may have lead to the same conclusions but at least we may have thought about alternative solutions instead of being surprised by something not being in the vault.

Vault Tracking - I thought Mall's approach to tracking vaults worked marvellously - drawing conclusions at the end of each list of decks played certainly helped my thinking in terms of match-ups for future rounds, I've got 2 slight complaints here:
1) I found the links to the match reports were useful to me at times, but because we didn't ever create a standard format for reporting the decks they were only used when I made the deck lists.
2) The perfectionist in me wants a tool that will help you more accurately picture an opponent's entire vault - the hole in our approach is against teams that don't reuse the same decks we'll have a much harder time predicting what they'll play because we only see decks lists and not the whole vault.

Match Planning - Despite our democratic approach there are times I either ignored another players deck choices or kept my mouth shut. Sometimes this was because of how late in the planning round decisions were being made, sometimes it was because I didn't want to create conflict, sometimes it was because I was lazy. Burd's loss with Damstal in round 4 has eaten at me all war - I'd looked at the deck and thought about Silences but never said anything *sniff* and its my favorite deck of ours *sniff* and I miss it :( That said I think we did an excellent job much of the time, having a variety of approaches to this I think gave us a more accurate picture on which to base our opinions.

Creativity - Burd you are the King! Kev has said a few times that every war their is one crazy that suggests bringing Explosion in a deck that doesn't produce fire quanta as a means of beating Discord. It's true that we have a team full of that sort of crazy mindset, its also true that Burd does things the rest of us write off and nuts and often makes them work. Having this sort of creativity is an excellent means of solving problem match ups, thank you team for your efforts in this regard.

I don't think I have too much more to say, kev thank you for bidding on me, this war was sooo much fun. I appreciate both the maturity you brought to the team, both your own and your desire to recruit others that were the same. Thank you for at times holding back your thoughts and allowing space for others to contribute, it was noticed an appreciated. Thank you for giving me the space to disagree with you and appreciating the value of a difference of opinion, that too was noticed and appreciated.

Mall thank you for consistently speaking your mind and for challenging my thoughts - our team was greatly improved by the counter point you often played to me. And thank you for your consistent sacrifice of sleep to stay up for matches or help plan as a deadline approached. You were a blast to work with, and I'd do it again in a heart beat.

Burd, I have loved your creativity. Its been fun and surprisingly effective, I've been pleasantly surprised by your trios and have greatly enjoyed both our conversations and your insight into decks and match ups.

Elbirn - thanks for your honesty about where you were at - its greatly appreciated. Again the maturity shown by not making excuses and just telling us where you were at was appreciated.

Bloom - thanks for the insight and perspective of previous team Airs, it was valuable. I wish I'd had the opportunity to get to know you better.


lol - nope that's not a wall of text - nope not at all
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Offline kev

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Re: Rights and wrongs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48414.msg1061307#msg1061307
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 06:16:57 pm »

The Nitty-Gritty
After War a lot of players are haunted by specific decks they should have played or individual cards they wished they hadn't converted and I am no exception.  At the end of the day we have to get comfortable with the fact we made the best decision with the information available to us at the time.  I agree there are some decisions we rushed a little bit, but that happened less on this team than other War teams I've been on, and I suspect other teams this War had several rounds close to the buzzer.

The nitty-gritty is the crap that stands out in your mind because it's so easy to see the cause-and-effect relationship of the two cards you should have added but didn't.  These details are hugely important to the battle, but when it comes to the War, they are dwarfed by (and a byproduct of) the process and the team.

The Process
I'm separating the process and the team into two sections even though they're completely interrelated.

As I see it there are two viable approaches to being a War General.  The first approach is dictatorship, wherein the General puts the team on his back and carries them to the finish line.  There the General does a lot of the legwork and supervises what little work he delegates.  Although the team may offer opinions, the General ultimately makes deck and vault decisions.  He'll sometimes need to spend time coaching players through matchups or find ways to circumvent player poverty.  Reliability, rather than ingenuity or experience, is the most important trait to have in teammates, and because reliability is cheaper the General procures players for rock-bottom prices.  Sometimes the General accidentally finds himself surrounded by extremely talented players.

There are a lot of advantages to the dictatorship approach if the dictator is a strong, experienced player who has time to run the team properly.  The team is inexpensive, there's rarely any confusion about what to do, there's rarely any stress about making a poor decision, there's rarely any failures due to inexperience, and there's rarely any conflict.

The second approach is democracy, which means the General apparently “overpays” (all you dunderheads are wrong but I’m done arguing) for his team.  In return he gets a group of players who are expected to contribute equally to the workload but especially to deck and vault decisions.  Ingenuity and inexperience were expensive traits at the auction, but a General who did things correctly (I’m a little concerned at how much of my mind Jen-I has read) ended up with this team.

There are a lot of disadvantages to democracy, but in the end it led to greater learning, greater fun, and (although the forum is still reigned by Aether), greater success.  The success part comes from the diverse opinions, conflict, and orderly resolution that are by definition missing from dictatorship.  Diversity is more than the color of your skin.  Diversity is also your collective experiences and the way they form your viewpoint.  I firmly believe the best way to approach any problem is with a diverse group.

The Team
If I’d taken the dictatorship approach you guys would’ve gotten more sleep and your wives wouldn’t be mad at me. :D But we also would’ve learned less from one another, been eliminated a long, long time ago, and ultimately had less fun.

My greatest contribution to the team was recognizing I wasn’t a good fit as a dictator and drafting a phenomenal team.  The posts above and some of the scattered comments by other forum members give me way too much credit.  I looked through our chat log; maul and Jen together accounted for 60% of discussion; I was far less.  And I don’t think either of them spent as much time online as Burd did.  Bloom was never subbed; Elbirn, regrettably, had real life stuff.  The whole team’s activity, knowledge, and creativity was inspiring.  I learned more during this War than any previous War, and if you look at my former comrades in arms it’s an impressive bunch.

I’m honored to have been a part of Team Air.  I’m not just proud of how close we came to victory but also the resolution to play like champions.  Not sure what else to say except thanks, gents.

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Re: Rights and wrongs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48414.msg1062671#msg1062671
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2013, 04:11:13 am »
I'm terrible at conjuring up walls of text but I wanted to let all of you know; Kev, Jen, Burd, Mall & Elbirn, that you're all beautiful people. I can't thank you all enough for picking up the slack I created.
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Offline Elbirn

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Re: Rights and wrongs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48414.msg1065601#msg1065601
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2013, 11:47:33 pm »
Sorry all, didn't notice this thread...Hadn't really checked the board in some time.

I think all that's to be said has already been said. We're a bunch of sexy bastards who got stuff done. I learned a lot from you guys, and while I'm disappointed in my own performance and efforts, I'm at least a better player from the experience. I'd love to play with you gents again, there's a great team here. Who knows, maybe I'll pick up some slack next time ;P

I've seen a small argument above about overpaying for the team. I'm siding with Kev here. From what I've seen here, a strong team is worth infinitely more than the small amount of cards spent. If I were a general, I'd 14 bid all of you <3
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 11:51:57 pm by Elbirn »
:air Team Air War#7 :air
:air Team Air War#6 :air
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