Post by: pervepic on October 03, 2011, 02:50:31 am
1.
An old idea, which we used in War 2. :entropy decks were successful. Quite painful to meet.
2.
This or something similar because in way it's an anti-Discord deck too. Something similar was used in the last War by :air, but as far I remember they had Unstable Gas there. I liked this one a little more, but it's still open to changes. Here is another, even more agressive version:
3.
Unbeated deck in the War 2 and was used also in the last War, but there is a problem - it's overused and some teams may really prepare against that. Actually Flying Titans were used in both Wars too; so that makes it's double-problematic. Maybe we shouldn't use more that 1 flying and rewindable deck this in time. Flying Glories are possible to use too.
4.
A deck I just made. In War 2 we had also a Fractal-Spider deck, but this one seems better, because the lack of permanent control is not so painful because of the Poison.
5.
Nothing special, but if the Underworld comes to play or people tend to use Nova decks a lot, then it could be useful.
6.
The only good thing about this deck is that it can kill :death because of it's healing. A slow deck. Maybe we should also think about some other possibilities how to meet Poison, because it is relatively popular and annoying.
7.
Just an :air rush, can be used by the General and Liutenant. If someone else wants to run it, then he should change mark and use some upgraded Wyrms probably.
8.
A good deck which is pleasant to play. Was also successful in War 2.
9.
A weird deckouter I once created. There can be many variatons of the Phase Shield decks and I'm not sure we should this version at all. And I'm not a too big fan of the Phase Shield decks, because they are relatively unreliable even against those elements who normally don't have permanent control. The thing is that everybody wants to have permanent control against us anyway. This deck has at least huge amount of shields, so only few Steals don't kill that :)
10.
11. Generals and Liutenants can also use upgraded Wyrms, and Deflags are feeded by he mark here. Quicksands are bad for this deck.
A good thing about this deck is that it can kill some :light stalls by making a lot of damage. But it is still relatively slow. One other alternative that came to mind aginst :light was just simple Twin Universe - Dragons which does a lot of damage too.
12.
To be continued... In my opinion the best decks are :entropy and :darkness; very flexible and can be used against many opponents. Permanent control can't be underestimated, since everybody assumes that this is the weakness of our element. Feel free to comment, test and post your own ideas.
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 03, 2011, 04:27:55 am
Upgrades are pretty variable here.
This ones hardly different from a lot of the death air, but slightly better against Reverse Times (Mummies take two shots, everything else is cheap), which people like taking against Air
This one can be a real pain. 40 cards though, and obviously can be countered.
Ok, this one is a risk (especially since its badly built, even I can see that). Deflags and RoFs are potential additions in any case. Upgrades variable.
No control here, but potential for huge damage. Good against stalls, doesn't really reach a maximum output. (Plus, Sky Blitz). Damsels are infinitely better upgraded.
Also, something I would consider adding to all the Darkness decks is Nightmare, since it has the extra drain ability now, and wasn't available in War 2. (With two elements you can usually be reasonably confident that you will have an acceptable target, and you can always use their creatures)
Post by: plastiqe on October 03, 2011, 04:30:22 am
Deck 7 seems like a waste of upgrades even for Lt. or General to use Elite Fireflys when you could get the :fire quanta off the mark and upgrade something more useful.
Pound for pound our best Air upgrades are Sky Dragons at 13/7, Eagle Eye at 7 damage, Elite Queen for the upped fireflies and Elite Wyrm at 5/3 (though they are still quite weak to CC).
Here is my favourite pvp Air deck, Adren Staffs. It is ruined by RT though... might be worth it to include the life cards in our vault but save the deck for a surpise in the later rounds. I'm in favour of taking Flying Titans and using it in this manner as well.
A water/air with Purify could be a nice anti-poison for us since we can also use Toadfish there. Almost every team will have poison in one form or another so Purify, even in our Graboid/Nova will be valuable.
I also like Discord in a war environment a lot, an early Discord against the right deck can seal the game right there, and we can easily fit in multiple Discord with flying weapon.
We could also run an Immo deck on damselflies for Lt. and General, though once again I'm not sure it's the best use of our upgrades.
I'm interested in what other teams have sent against Air in past wars, particularly in 1st and 2nd round when there are a lot of options cause it could give us some insight into what we're likely up against. Checking the archives is on my to-do list along with finishing the comics, and grinding for electrum.
DrunkD's Flying Tridents is interesting, but couldn't we achieve the same thing using Earthquakes in an Air/Earth duo?
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 03, 2011, 04:48:35 am
Upped Fireflies are actually quite powerful, and can go with Unstable Gases too. Plus, RP fits perfectly with the Dragons (reminds me of the rush I used in Trials, without damsels).
Entropy decks are easily changed. Adding more Discords/Maxwells Demons/Antimatters depending on who we are playing.
(Basic one with more antimatters, no demons, BE)
Post by: Legit on October 03, 2011, 05:25:27 am
I have a few ideas floating around, I'll post them all eventually.
We should not forget something basic like this mono Air can still work.
Something like this is a great OTK and can work differently in various situations.
And we must not forget the funky trios
And whatever this is. It's not fast but it's strong
...And the Air/Water duo. Could use tweaking.
So far my favorite is the Air/Light stall.
Post by: Bloom on October 03, 2011, 04:51:27 pm
I'll come up with some more later. Please make any additions you'd like.
Post by: pervepic on October 03, 2011, 05:24:42 pm
Sry about making your job DD :) . I like DD-s Trident deck, because it slowly kills some stalls that need a lot of qunata, like :light (sadly :light has used a lot of Rewind decks as well). There is also possible to use this version too, because there is no need for that much :air quanta. Using Tridents is good, because just EQ-s may be not enough, since everybody split quanta sources.
Deck nr is almost like my :death duo, but I preferred using Recluses more, because they can neutralize Dragons.
:light duo is good, because it heals and may even counter Poison.
I think that UG deck is possible in this way too, because there is no need so much :fire quanta:
This high-damage deck seems great, although sadly Mitosis is also rewindble .
I also agree with Plastiqe and DD that 1 :entropy deck is with the Discord is clearly not enough :)
Legit, mono- :air rush is definitely possible, but I would add an Eagle's Eye there instead of and unupgraded Wyrm. Something like this (I also added Dragonflies, because Wyrms and Dragons eat quanta really alot):
The second deck is short of quanta too in my opinion, I guess that something like that would be better:
Since Sky Blitz pretty much sucks and is useless in the early stadium of the game, then we shouldn't use many of them if we are gonna use them at all.
The third deck is definitely funky :) but needs too many things to go well to work properly. Again, the percent of the quanta producers there is relatively small. The Acceleration deck seems slow.
About the :water deck: I guess that we can hit 2 mosquitos with the one hit and to make :water deack also an anti-Poison deck.
I added this to my deck's list list.
Maybe I'll comment Blooms decks later if I have time.
Ok, I guess that deck 1 is a normal deck but I don't know if this is better than any other rush we already have here. And the amount of simple rushes can't be very big, because people use shields.
UG deck is too slow. If to play that kind of deck at all, then you have to use shields or a massive creature control (like DD-s deck or like Octane's deck is).
Water duo is interesting, but it can be easily in trouble, because it plays for double creature control and does only a little damage itself. Freezes alone are quite weak, they need Schockwaves to actually kill creatures, but if they come in wrong time, there may be trouble. And if opponent also has minumal creature control, then there is just nothing to kill him with.
About life duo: if it's possible, then prefer Dragons to the unupped Wyrms, since they are much better. And I'm not entirely sure if and why a duo with :life is better than just mono- :air.
Post by: BC on October 03, 2011, 08:18:38 pm
Post by: TuckingFypo on October 03, 2011, 10:52:50 pm
I haven't actually tested this, but how does this general concept look for an Immo/Novabow counter?
Post by: Robotocracy on October 03, 2011, 11:03:52 pm
More deck ideas are on the way...
Post by: plastiqe on October 04, 2011, 02:46:14 am
TuckingFypo I like Reverse Time as a counter deck but it's almost always better for us to use Air Pendulums in a duo, because Air Pends can be subbed into any of our decks while Teme Pendulums would only work with that one deck. It's fairly simple to rebalance the quanta and change the mark to time tho, nice deck. Also this deck doesn't really benefit from wings, I'd take them out for Fogs and maybe another Eternity and a Flying Wep.
About Fog Shield. It is our best shield and pound for pound one of the best value cards in all Elements, other teams are paying at least 2 quanta to get rid of them and when they don't we live a haxxing 40% longer. A few decks can use Wings but I think a lot of other teams will just send flyers vs us to get around that. Almost every damage based 30ish card deck should have 2ish Fog Shields in it, it's that good.
I agree with Tucking for Unstable Gas decks, I think they'd be much more stable as mostly Air decks with maybe 2-3 Deflags. Rage Potion is not necessary because we have Shockwaves. Combined with UG and OE we can keep our CC in house. Rage Potion with some Deflags would be interesting in a Sky Dragon rush, because now you can use RP as dual CC or buff cards, like it is meant to be used.
Post by: Legit on October 04, 2011, 03:45:16 am
Discord is good. We should look into taking at least 3 for one deck.
RT is also useful. Running them off a time mark with normal air cards in the rest of the deck works.
If we can, taking 4-6 BH might be useful later on when UW joins or if a lot of teams win with graboid rainbows/immos/etc. We can always use them to convert if we need to.
I also agree with what plastiqe said about Fog Shield and Unstable Gas. Maybe add some Air Nymphs :D?
Water/Air duos win. Taking a bunch of water cards is always an option. Same with Life/Air. Maybe we can even try a fire queen/hope deck.
Air/Death is definitely solid. Definitely wreaks many creature-based decks, which are popular in war.
And I still like my OTK Fire/Air dragon deck. Sky Blitz FTW
Deflags are great. We will need them.
MORE DECK IDEAS:
TU/Sky Dragons
LS/Dragons (Essentially the acceleration deck I made earlier but with healing instead of more damage)
Poison/CC stall (Perhaps with dragon/sky blitz finisher. In case you haven't noticed, I love Sky Blitz OTK)
Earth/Air duo with EQ and random Air cards. Maybe EA.
Post by: pervepic on October 04, 2011, 03:46:05 am
Post by: TuckingFypo on October 04, 2011, 04:42:57 am
No more time, apparently.
@plastique
This could be a moot point, but because immo/novabows are fast, we want access to RT's as fast as possible. We also have the option to convert those time pendulums into air ones if needed. Wings, ehh...I thought would help versus Shriekers; now that I think about it it could be a bit redundant.
@Pervepic
Again this could be a moot point, but I think that's sort of a gamble. If we get unlucky and lose enough of those first round matches along with all our PC cards, the other teams could realize that we could no longer manage to have PC in our decks and use that against us.
I think the next best step is to look at what other popular decks we could be facing against and to make sure we have at least one check against each or most of them.
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 04, 2011, 04:54:08 am
That is a grand total of 12! 30 card decks. (and 9 spare cards, probably pendulums, or rewinds/ect to splash in our monos).
Eventually we're going to have to decide how many decks we want to serve each purpose, and which ones. (I doubt we will be using two exact copies of anything. Maybe two entropy/darkness/rainbows, but all of those are already 6 decks!)
Sample. Not to be taken with any weight whatsoever.
2 x Grabbow
2 x Darkness Duo
1 x Entropy Duo
1 x Death Duo (Spiders)
1 x Light Stall (40-42 cards!!!)
1 x Life Duo
1 x Flying Tridents
1 x Fire Duo
1 x Air Rush (w/ Deflags)
11 decks. Looking up at that, I would say that it's wrong, we would probably want two Air decks, and the Life/Water/Light duos (which are unnamed and unspecific) could be anything else, and could be tweaked with. It doesn't include a lot of decks I want to put in, but it shows the general idea of what we are going to have to do.
I like Perves strategy idea - if we do that, R2 they will be expecting all the War #2 greats, and we can bust out some new styles :P
(I have to confess that the flying Trident deck was actually one of Legit's, given to me before the War. I just threw it into my brainstorming PM, and copied pasted it without crediting. whoops, good job Legit!)
@Bloom.
Just some basic strategy notes in terms of deckbuilding - try to use :air pendulums when applicaple, because they can be reused in every other Duo, while life pendulums can only be used with life. (Also helps to reach the 50% air cards rule which we're bound by)
I like the nightmares in the darkness duo, as well as the fireflies to duo with light. I'd be a little hesitant using Immolations though-specially with Phoenixes, with the nerf coming up and such.
@TuckingFypo (If I was a couple seconds faster I wouldn't even be writing this :P ).
I've been thinking that we will likely face Ghostmare from Darkness (and possibly time), who know its a strong deck and know rewinds are powerful vs Air.
Grabbows are hugely popular, although being team Air I don't know how many we'll be facing. Poison stalls are as popular as ever though, and I think we might go against a few of them.
Looking through round 1 of last war, Team Air went up against: :water Miracle Ice Bolt Stall :time Fractal Scarabs (rainbow, with 3 RTs) :life Duo with Otyughs Chargers, Momentum, carpace adren scorps. :light Stone Skin stall :darkness EQ devs Gargoyles :fire TU dragons and dimshields :gravity Fractal chargers and dimshields . And that seems to be it. Not an accurate indication of what teams this time will use though.
Post by: pervepic on October 04, 2011, 12:42:36 pm
Even if some decks will lose in the round 1, they still have to prepare against those decks they know we have for round 2. They will use Google Docs to pick decks. So we can relatively peacefully play whtever we want. Besides, they don't know what we actually discarded, and also the element of salvage should confuse things.
I'm not very sure what to do against Ghost of the Past - Rewind decks. Discords, Antimatters and Maxwells could help. Some kind of massive creature control, maybe.
@ DD, I think that now when we can convert a lot, we could take 9 decks with the quanta producers and 5 decks without them to the vault, so 14 decks approximately.
@plastiqe : I totally agree about Fog - it has decide the fate of the battle so many times. Another very good card is Owl. Wings are more situational and teams usually send us airborne critters anyway. So, Wings are usually good only with the spiders, especially in the beginning of the war, because team can choose what kind of critters to send against us.
About the Rage Pots - these are not necessary but still better that Shockwaves, since many critters have 5 Hp. Besides, people know that we have SW.
And i think that it's good not to use UG and Sky Blitzes and unupped Wyrms very much - those are 1 trick ponies. UG is usable only when you have insane amount of cc. It is so slow compared with the Dragons: they make 20 damage with 6 quanta with the 2 turns when Dragons make the same damage with the same time but using 10 quanta. But they continue to make damage. So, after 3 turns a Dragon has done 30 Damage for 10 quanta, but Ug are preparing to make damage for 12 quanta (20 is already done). The point is that the 1 single Dragon is worth the same as spamming 1 UG in every second turn and they eat a lot of quanta. And Sky Blitzes - totally emty card at he beginning of the battle, when its cost is almost Dragon's cost. I don't know, maybe some decks can have 1 of those, but hardly more. Compared with Dragons, unupped Wyrms are not very good - for Dragons, it takes some more time to come to play, but when they are already in the game, they catch up the damage Wyrms has made pretty soon (not to mention higher HP). Upgraded Wyrms are much better.
Post by: Robotocracy on October 04, 2011, 08:29:52 pm
I think we should have a few good novabows at the core of our vault. They're strong decks, and most importantly they're highly adaptable and can be tweaked depending on the circumstances. If we play mostly :fire :entropy oriented decks, fast rainbows with good control etc. the first round we might be able to test the waters, then take the other teams off guard by shifting strategies the next round. More specialized decks, :air monos and the like can come later.
Here's a deck idea that I like, maybe with more testing it can be used in later rounds:
Post by: TuckingFypo on October 05, 2011, 12:25:16 am
I don't think that you'd need more than two Lobo's, also considering that they aren't a key card in the strategy. I also don't like the quanta production base, if you're even 1-2 quanta short of a Fractal you'd have to wait two more turns. You could also compare to the version in the OP.
Wyrms are supposed to be upped, which I don't have yet.
GotP is killed by Shockwaves upped or not, and they clog your hand to weaken Nightmares, sort of. Upped Wyrms have a sort of cheap casting cost to counter Rewinds. Bonewall is there as a safety net that works with or without Shockwaves, is resilient to Steals, and is card efficient because we're using them in other Air/Death duos too. It seems a bit slow, but that's because of we can't use Dragons. The other cards are debatable.
Upped Flesh Spiders>Mummies but are upped cards.
OE or Arsenics could be added, and with Bonewalls I doubt they'll cause any difference when stolen.
Post by: Robotocracy on October 05, 2011, 12:55:29 am
Oh wow, I didn't see that deck in the OP, I feel kind of stupid now. Mine was just an idea for fractal fireflies, that one is obviously more fleshed out. Still, I like having a larger number of lobotomizers/electrocuters because I consider them vital to the deck strategy - without being able to lobotomize, maxwell's demon, devour creatures, and infecting creatures are all hard counters, fallen elf, iridium warden, mind flayer, and arctic squid are all soft counters, growth creatures can outgrow your shield, and momentum creatures ignore your shield.
If you're looking specifically to counter ghostmares, have you tried using sanctuary?
Post by: pervepic on October 05, 2011, 01:26:54 am
1. I added a second Fog here, because I don't think that opponents start to play agains us with non-airborne critters already in the first round.
2. DD-s deck a bit modified. Sneaked 1 BE in here :) :
3.
4. The point here is to get Discord out sooner.
5. Deck removed.
6. Others can replace 3 Wyrms with the 2 Dragons and a Pillar.
7. For those who can't have 6 upped Vamps, you can add whatever you want (maybe it's good to differ from the next deck a little) - Stiletto (good card!), Nightmares (?!), Dusk or maybe just to add some Air cards (Owl, Fog).
8.
9. Plstiqe's deck. Depends, if there should be Wings or Fogs.
10. Spiders and Wings. Both me and DD thought about the same thing. Now I'm prefering this, because Spiders Work together well with Wings.
11. Many of you have made different water duos, but mine is basically an anti-Poison deck too. I still think that this kind of deck should have a decent amount of hitters to break through the Bone Wall, for example. But this is a matter of discussion. A new version:
12. Me and Robot are in the similar opinions about the following deck. Mine is a bit different, since it also has the point of hitting hard and break through the stall walls:
13. Legit's deck. Probably good against big quanta consumers. Maybe even can be changed for better:
14. DD's deck. Perhaps having 2 Mirror Shield would be a good idea, so different bolts couldn't do anything.
If there is room, we could take just some Black Holes for using it in the future. Hi Legit :)
Post by: Legit on October 05, 2011, 02:22:48 am
3/4. Nova rushes: I don't like them, but because we're a team I figure it's a necessity.
5. Yeah, we need at least 1 Unstable Gas deck. Perhaps take a nymph or two for the vault because we can. Also, Shockwaves?
6. Good.
7. Perhaps.
8. Well-rounded Darkness duo looks great.
9. Rewind is a killer here, but adrenastaves will do well against creature-based decks.
10. Great.
11. Yep, Water duo we need one of those.
Also I think we need at least 2 stalls (I like the Air/Light and Air/Aether). And 1 Hope deck.
My commentary is so in depth.
EDIT:
We have 369 cards in the vault, +12 from propaganda if I remember correctly, so we can probably take at least 10 solid decks (including stalls) and have a few cards left over for pillars and filler cards like BH. Keep in mind that cards like Dragons and Owl's Eye are present in the majority of decks posted above, but that doesn't mean we need to take an abundance of them, because we won't use all of them at any given time. Plus, we keep 6 key cards from all losing decks this time around (Although this means more converting and focusing on the decks we really need).
Post by: pervepic on October 05, 2011, 03:09:10 am
Post by: Robotocracy on October 05, 2011, 04:06:21 am
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 05, 2011, 08:40:31 am
Deck 3 seems to be as strong as it was before.
Deck 5 I am a little worried about. Even with good draws, creature spams end up beating it out, since 6 UGs are spread out and OEs don't always come as early as you'd like. Plus, immortal, High HP, Phoenix, Creatureless, Voodoo! decks all have a huge advantage there. Not sure whether its worth taking, even if we add nymphs.
Deck 7 (Fire) again, I just don't trust with the immo nerf, since it wont be possible to one turn a phoenix. Not truly dominant in the (very) few games I played.
Deck 10, confused as to why the second arsenic is upped rather than another Recluse.
Post by: pervepic on October 05, 2011, 01:52:33 pm
I totally share DD's thought about UG, I already expressed my opinion about that too. I put that there, because people seem to like UG and to have some diversity of decks, but if I were alone in the team I wouldn't even think about taking UG-s. Maybe only then if I had like 4-5 Nymphs, only then I would use UG deck (but without separate gases, but Nymphs and Flying Owls). But still, what we can pretty much be sure about that there probably won't be a creature spam in the first round against us, because they know that we have Wings. Considering that UG deck might even work. So what to put instead? Another stall? Or Firefly Queen deck? Or another mono-air with few explosions?
And I also agree about Immo deck - Rewind is our problem anyway, there is no need to make that problem even bigger. I'm gonna remove that from the list.
Yep, a Recluse may be upped in the 10th deck.
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 06, 2011, 03:33:25 am
After that, I'm thinking the Gravity Anti Rainbow one
The mitosis ones for high potential damage output (stalls)
Or even something like this, if we really need to fill the phoenix gap.
About to look through what teams played against Air in the first 4 rounds last war, then we can look through that and figure out what cards people like throwing at us, and therefore what might be slightly better.
I've tried to grab just the key-ish cards, not really the changeable ones.
Round 2:
:fire Firestall: Sanctuaries, Rage Potions, Faerenheights, Deflagrations
:gravity Discord/BH : Discords, Black Holes, Aboms/Dragons/Armagios
:light Poison/Stall/Rush? : Poisons, Miracles, Skull Shield + Plagues
:time Ghostmare: GotP, Nightmare, Rewinds, Steals
:darkness Mono Dark: Pick and Mix of Darkness cards.
:entropy Voodoo: Voodoo Dolls, Basilisk Bloods, Gravity Pulls
:aether Mono Aether: Dimshields, Dragons, Lobos
:earth Mono Earth: Basilisk Bloods, Stone Dragons
Round 3:
:death Fire Splash: Poison, Deflags, (Bone) Dragons
:time Aether Duo: Anubis, Pharaoh, Lightnings, Dimshields ???
:entropy Discord/BH: Discords, BH, Gravity Pulls, Aboms
:life Aether Duo: Dragons, Quints, Dim Shields
:aether Bonebolt: Lightnings, Poison, Bonewall, Electrocuter and Arsenic!
:water Air Splash: Toadfish, Ice Bolts, Dragons, Shockwave
:light Entropy Splash Antimatter, Discord, Crusader, Miracle
:darkness EQbow: EQ, Novas, Devoruers, RTs, other speedbow cards.
Round 4:
:life Aether Duo: Dimshields, Quints, Dragons, Lightnings
:darkness Fractal: Devourers, Fractal, Minor Vamps
:water NovaGraboid : Graboids, Tridents! also, 1 Reflective shield (uncommon in this deck type)
:light Gravity Duo: Otyugh, Blessing (Grav Shield)
:fire Rush: Immo, Phoenix, 3 Deflags, 6 Reverse Times!!
:earth Time Duo: EQ, RT, GotP, Stone Dragons
:death Time Splash: Dragons, RTs.
:entropy Aether Duo: Dimshields,Quints, Dragons (2 Lightnings)
Might be worth it to go to R5, but the further from the start you get, the more random the deck selection is.
Post by: pervepic on October 06, 2011, 09:57:18 pm
Hmm, I'm not sure anymore aginst which deck exactly our :water deck is directed for? Checking the list DD it is in danger of losing to everyone!! I'm not adding it cause it sucks. Gimme better water deck or I put FFq in, it heals a lot at least :). Perhaps we should use Bone Walls really? Against fire they are perfect too.
Edit: Ok, I'll put that water deck in now.
Edit agin: there is no problem anymore, since after puttining 9 decks with quanta sources in and the rest without them, there are only 3 cards left that we could take. We can also take a risk and take only 8 decks with quanta sources, but then we have to win a lot in the first round (that's not a problem, right?) to not to be in trouble later.
Post by: TuckingFypo on October 06, 2011, 11:26:06 pm
Post by: pervepic on October 06, 2011, 11:29:16 pm
Seriously guys, does our water deck really beats anything from DD's list?
Post by: TuckingFypo on October 06, 2011, 11:51:09 pm
Sry yeah, 5 cards left. Let's take Black Holes then (and I'll delete 1 Pillar from the 9th deck). Now there are 13 decks in the Vault. There may be some mistakes, I have to check everything. And I put them there just to be sure we haven't taken anything too much. If some decks suck, then they should be removed asasp.I'll assume you're talking about
Seriously guys, does our water deck really beats anything from DD's list?
or something like that, from one of your posts...somewhere? Isn't that our anti-poison stall?
Quote from: DrunkDestroyer
:light Poison/Stall/Rush? : Poisons, Miracles, Skull Shield + Plagues
:aether Bonebolt: Lightnings, Poison, Bonewall, Electrocuter and Arsenic!
Also, depending on what happens in the Propaganda center, we'll get another 12-24 cards. What do we do with them?
Post by: Legit on October 06, 2011, 11:54:17 pm
Also, depending on what happens in the Propaganda center, we'll get another 12-24 cards. What do we do with them?http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,31805.msg434124#msg434124
So we add 12 more cards to the vault.
@below
I guess we can add more filler cards that we can convert or use in the future as a surprise, or to double up on important cards. If all else fails taking pillars is never a bad option.
EDIT:
Alright, I'll have some free time this weekend so I can spend a few hours working on the vault with my teammates
Post by: TuckingFypo on October 06, 2011, 11:56:28 pm
Post by: pervepic on October 06, 2011, 11:57:56 pm
Adding some Dragonflies could help this one?
I don't know, maybe it could go through Bone Walls at least.
A rush deck that is also possible to use:
This or something else can be a candidate for a vacant place. Meaning is to be immunte to CC with Phoenixes, have pc and somthing to go through Bone Walls if needed.
DD-s Mitosis deck is also pretty good, but stalls usually use cc too, so they proably won't let use Mitosis very well.
I also think that our mono-air with few Deflags works well with Damselflies. Damselflies are also anti EQ-s!
I think that these 3 are decks where Damselflies can be actually useful. Those variations and decks are not put in the Vault, I put there only previous versions.
Added a hitter to this deck, I think that it needs that.
Ok, time to sleep (6 AM, nice)
Post by: BC on October 07, 2011, 02:54:15 am
snipI fail at counting ??? nonetheless, it wasn't a serious suggestion.
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 07, 2011, 05:24:07 am
I'm leaving it in the vault until we find a replacement. However, I am throwing in the Dragonflies into the vault (replacing the pillars in the above fire splash deck, and the -1 dragon which happened too)
Also, thanks for your work on the Vault Perve! (We seem to be missing 3 random cards. If nothing else comes up: Air Pendulums - we only have 37. We might even want to get rid of the water deck for more of these - we need every player to be able to play a specific deck.)
Post by: pervepic on October 07, 2011, 12:04:37 pm
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2 Cards left. If we will get our propaganda bonus plus 12 cards, then we could also add this one, for example:
(14). And there is also other possibilities: just to add Black Holes and maybe 1-2 additional Fogs, Owls, Eagles, Dragons, Wyrms, Wings to the Vault.
Post by: plastiqe on October 07, 2011, 06:19:01 pm
- 1.29 is live now, that means Deflag/Explosion just became :fire :fire :fire and :fire :fire This hurts our decks which use multiples but it also helps our permanents which we rely on a lot. We should rethink taking 2x upped explosion in deck 3 and 4, perhaps subbing in Momentum in both decks?
- Deck 1 and 2, why are we using upgrades on Micro Abomination when we could do much better with a Dragonfly for BE and upping something else?
- Deck 7 only has 8 Darkness creatures, this is not enough to justify bringing Nightfall. We should add another Devourer instead.
That is one of our best, if not our best deck and we aren't taking any? I would even take Bonewall + Poison over deck 9 Wings + Spiders + Poison.[/list]
- Any element can bring Bonewall + Poison + filler and it's an effective deck that we should prepare for, as well as Dune Scorpions from Time and any element with a creature buff I think we should have some Purify.. even if it is just to splash in with our Nova decks. I'm not much for guessing in the early rounds (there we should be taking our strongest overall decks) but in later rounds having access to Purify can be an auto win for us.
- I also rather liked the Reverse Time deck as an effective counter deck.
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 07, 2011, 07:34:02 pm
The quint deck is all right, but its only really useful if they have CC, and even then the two card combo is unreliable, and Quintessences aren't the most versatile cards. (Please, no rushing to link me to Doggs amazing move: It can stop opposing creatures from being buffed/quinted/catapulted ect - and at zero cost if you know the opponent has no CC). But we don't need a whole new deck for that really, just a few Quints.
Ok, so kevkev gave us the update, we now have the 12 bonus propaganda cards. Whether we get the other 12 (we definitely deserve them, I wouldn't be able to name two teams which did better than us, no matter what you're looking for) is unfortunately the future, and the votes are never cast as they should be.
6 RTs are something we can easily splash in out mono air. I'm reluctant to throw out the Deflags, but we can easily alternate between them later.
I'm still worried about 37 pendulums.
If we look at Perve's list, say we decide to take decks 5 - 13 in our first round. That's 57 pendulums. Not a fair selection of decks, but they did all come in order, so it isn't the highest possible combination.
I think that we need at least 50.
We have 14 cards left over at the moment. I'm not going to do it now because we can still change decklists, which means changing numbers of actual cards and we don't want to go over and take random cards out, but I think that this should be our next move rather than cramming another deck into our vault.
Basically, My suggestion as it stands follows:
-1 Deck.
At the moment, deck 10 seems to be the choice there, however this is not for certain. We have 1 day to worry about this. (Then we are at 44 cards)
+ 15 pendulums. (29 cards)
+6 Reverse Times (23 cards)
+ 3-6 Black Holes
+ 3-6 Quintessences (at lowest, 11 cards)
+ 3-6 Bone Walls (now at lowest, 5 cards)
Fill the rest with staples like Wyrms, Dragons, so we can substitute them depending on how many upped cards we get.
(And hope for the propaganda bonus)
Thoughts?
Post by: pervepic on October 07, 2011, 11:22:46 pm
1. 4-2
2. 3-5 Needs another Butterfly
3. 3-5
4. 4-4 (I used a bit different variation, put a Butterfly there too)
5. 6-2
6. 2-6 (2 Steals only)
7. 3-5 (3 Steals)
8. 2-6
9. 3-5
10. 3-5
11. 4-4
12. 1-7
13. 3-5
14. 5 wins at least, didn't test further.
I also had some thoughts how to improve existing decks.
1. I put Dragonflies instead of Abomination as suggested, but Dragonflies are very valuable independently too. Minus 1 Fog plus 1 Pendulum.
2. This doesn't have Maxwells but has Pandemonium. I made other changes too.
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After having enough of stall-killers, I think that it's good to have just different kind of decks.
9. Plast's cretureless.
10. Heavy CC
11. Heavy CC with Poison.
12.
Slightly anti-Discord and anti-Pestal.
13.
A purifying deck.
Post by: Legit on October 07, 2011, 11:29:00 pm
http://willyou.typewith.me/p/drunkdandthewingmen
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 08, 2011, 01:01:09 am
Like plastiqe pointed out, OE / Bone wall is a stronger deck overall. And it might be predictable, but so is nova/graboid and that doesn't stop every single team in War packing at least one.
The statistics in general are pretty worrying, although they don't take into account some things which we as players would find obvious. (Make every attempt to not play Adrenastaves against a stall).
And if deck 14 is doing that well, we shouldn't rely on the propaganda cards for it. The cards are all useable, we should be able to fit that one in if we take another out.
(14 decks still seems too much to me, especially with current pendulum count)
Seeing if there are any little improvements I can make...
My idea for deck 7:
- Nightfall + Nightmare
Deck 8:
-4 Wings +3 Fog -4 Pillar + 2 Forest Scorpion +2 Pendulum +1 Adrenaline (Logic: Usually only the first few staves need adrenaline. Poison build up late game could make this deck work late game. Could probably even lose another pillar after losing Wings for the much cheaper and not reusable Fog. Not 100% sure about this change, but I'm not sure whether or not 1 scorpion would be enough. I think sacrficing Wings for Fog makes sense with this deck, as long as we can fit them, and it gives us more card options)
The other thing would just be throwing another steal or two into the darkness decks.
Post by: Legit on October 08, 2011, 01:06:01 am
More deck ideas?
Post by: pervepic on October 08, 2011, 01:41:43 am
Damn, Pests don't work in trainer, I can't test that but it can't be bad. First round will be most likely a huge anti-stall event :) . If we won't beat them in the first round, they will keep coming and coming and all our other decks will be useless.
Yep, we can definitely try that Firestall; seems a good deck. But probably not against the professional stallers like :light and :water who traditionally, for some strange reason, puts Reflective Shields everywhere.
I agree about the Purify (not sure in what deck it should be and should we keep water and nova decks at all).
I agree about Bone Wall.
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 08, 2011, 02:50:38 am
I personally like LS + Nightmare, little additions which can change the game if drawn against the right opponents, and useable otherwise.
Legits deck looks decent too, like a little mix of the fractal fireflies and the adrenastaves. I could see that doing very well against stalls: prefferably without poison. Taking it out for a little bronze league spn to see how it plays.
(Not sure whether its intended or not, but I find if you want the game over faster -which you usually will, unless you want to maximise damage to beat Miracles/StoneSkin ect - but adrenalining a damselfly to help get a FFQ out seems to help)
I coult be away for a maximum of 24 hours now so please go ahead and work on the vault if needed
Post by: Legit on October 08, 2011, 04:22:06 am
Testing decks right now. (For testing I randomly went through the War 3 battle results, clicked on the first post that said (Air) in it, and fought against the opposing deck. Probably not the most optimal method, but it works.
1/2. Entropy duo. I REALLY like this deck. It works fairly well against many decks, which is great. Because it has so many different cards (1-2 copies of 10+ cards), it is a little draw dependent, so you may not get that one card you really need sometimes. Overall it plays well, it's quanta balanced, and it has a good chance against a bunch of decks. It's also awesome to get a first turn Discord.
3. Mono air w/ deflag. Another solid deck. The Dragonflies really help add up the damage. Owl's Eye is deadly against rushes (although PC makes me sad).
Also, y u no add Sky Blitz?
And here's a new deck idea, lolz:
Post by: TuckingFypo on October 08, 2011, 06:51:04 am
@Legit
That looks cool. Is it practical though? :P I'd say that upped BB's would be better than towers, as you can get to them twice as quickly. With only 10 Air pillars it looks really slow; I'd take Elite Wyrms over Dragons since you can get them out faster, and they do about the same damage catapulted or just attacking, though that competes for upgrade slots with BB's.
Post by: pervepic on October 08, 2011, 05:07:46 pm
Edit: if there is some free room, take BH-s or some additional Wings.
Post by: TuckingFypo on October 08, 2011, 08:09:39 pm
It's about enough to make one entirely new deck with some quanta producers, but I'd rather add things we could splash in to our current decks to counter predicted opponents' decks, like Reverse Times, Black Holes, Quints, and Shockwaves. Actually not sure how to make use of the BH's and Quints, but well that's just me. I haven't added any of those in yet, though.
I posted a different version of these a while ago:
Since we can't actually fit the entire deck in the vault anymore they'd have to use some of the cards we already have, which could be a good or bad thing.
Post by: Legit on October 08, 2011, 08:21:26 pm
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 09, 2011, 02:44:35 am
For the last 24 cards, we could add 6x Reverse Time, 5x BH, 5x Quint, 4x Shockwave, 4x PendulumSounds good to me.
At the moment we have just two shockwaves, and they can fit into all of our decks, so while I wouldn't have thought of it, its not a bad idea.
Other cards to consider are Momentum - Freeze? (not so much) which can both be easily splashed, depending on what we are expecting.
The light air stall aint bad, but thats 20 :light cards, and intense borrowing of Owls Eyes and flying weapons just to run it, so I dunno - probably better to prepare this way IMO.
Also, I'd like to draw anyones attention to this post: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,31910.msg435561#msg435561
Basically, that means that if there is no more discussion on this thread (which is not ideal, I love it when we talk :) ) In about 6 hours, I'll make sure we have 100% card completion, from there we can make some substitutions or something if we realise something is very wrong.
Post by: TuckingFypo on October 09, 2011, 05:09:04 am
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on October 09, 2011, 09:52:21 pm
This isn't our vault, but pretty much our initial deck options.
(Thanks for your work TuckingFypo, its very much appreciated)
It sucks that we didn't get the propaganda bonus (IMO we certainly deserved it more than both Death and Darkness, but I won't rant on about that). This will probably be the last post in this thread, so good work guys, and lets get going in the actual war!