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Offline willng3

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25544.msg329368#msg329368
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2011, 07:04:52 am »
Last bit of insight before I take my leave for a few days.
Against :fire - I've found that the CC we have available is generally useless against Immo Rushes.  It seems paradoxical, but Fire knows better than to send anything besides a Phoenix based rush at us because Lightning fries almost every other creature they have available.  If you go for a fullblown stall, then Lightnings are much more useful, but I've found that rushing + Lightnings is simply not going to win.
Keep an eye on that Steam Machine rush of theirs.  It's a lot more menacing than it seems at first glance and is resistant to Lightnings.  It is susceptible to Lobo however, but a few extra Deflags would fix that problem right up,
The Rewind Immo Rush is possibly the most dangerous Immo Rush they have right now.  Whether or not they think it's safe to use against us, I'll let the rest of you decide.

My predictions for them this round are that they're probably going to switch from stall to rushing as well.  Based on our performances against them over the past few rounds, we seem to be trying to counter the deck they just threw against us moreso than pretty much everything else; the best way to counter that last deck of theirs is to either rush or use a very specialized deck which runs slowly, but kills it all the same (Devtal, for example).  The easiest way to counter either of those two types of decks is to just control rush them both.

Decks worth noting:
Frogtal is unstable, but can win against their Rewind Immorush.  I did not test it against their Steam Machine rush, but with Heals and a fleet of Frogs not getting Rewound every other turn, I think it should perform better than against the aforementioned.
Devtal fails against that Rewind Immorush unless they get an absolutely awful starting hand.  Early Minor Vamp spam can help against cases where they get favorable draws, but if they get 2 or more Phoenixes within the first 2 turns, you're screwed.  Pretty sure the results here are going to be the same for most, if not all of their other rushes.
I tried a Rainbow rush consisting of EQ, Lobos, Mindflayers, Lightnings, Graboids...and a few other cards I can't remember because I neglected to save the deck code :\  It absolutely destroys the Steam Machine rush.  It can kill the Rewind Immo Rush, but does not do it consistently enough; it generally requires an early game Lobo appearing and not getting Deflagged.
That Sundial Poison stall pika posted on the last page is probably the only true counter to their Rewind Immo Rush I've found so far; it should do well against their other Immo decks, but I'm not sure about the Steamies.
Mono Aether can work here, but requires luck to pull off because of random Deflags.  I tried using Mono Aether with Heals, Mono Aether with Discords/Pandemonium, and Mono Aether with Miracles/Sanctuaries, all kept at 30 cards, and their odds seem to be chancy at best; the PC is just too threatening for reliability here.

I would personally agree with most of what EP said earlier; a deck with cards which won't affect many of our other decks if it loses seems to be ideal since the odds aren't really in our favor here.  I'm going to have to leave it up to the rest of you to decide which deck gives us our best chances here.

Heh, but I'm not facing :fire, am I? :)
Against :death I'm probably going to stick with the Flying Titan deck; maybe with the random Purify, but probably not.  It goes right through Bone Wall decks, shrugs off Graboid Rainbows, and for the most part counters their stall decks pretty well.  A few problems arise here of course though...firstly, I'll have to substitute Accelerations in for Catapults since we didn't salvage those.  Secondly, the RNG factor of giving me those 3 Nova to fly my Titans has me a bit worried because there are some decks where not getting that on time will screw me over terribad.  I haven't even looked at the decks they've used over the past few rounds either to be completely honest, but seeing as how that deck lost against them once, I highly doubt they'd expect to see it again (their Discord/BH deck also lost recently so its direct counter probably doesn't exist anymore).

I will have a slight amount of activity the day before the round ends to update the Decks list and offer a bit of input if needed; the rest is going to have to be almost all up to the rest of you I'm sorry to say.  On a brighter note, if we do much better than the previous rounds then that's probably a sign that my predictions have been screwing us up this entire time ;D
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Offline Higurashi

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25544.msg329429#msg329429
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2011, 11:44:19 am »
@Light: I have to say I still don't see a way for them to work past EQ. It really ruins -all- of their decks except the Grabbow and ImmoPhoenix. The former keels over to Lightning/PU, and the latter has lost two rounds in a row (but could beat our EQ Grabbow due to Sancs). I think an EQ Grabbow has the best chance against the vast majority of their decks. They could try to predict that since we brought it against them last time, but I don't think they can do much about it.

@Fire: We have 5 Graboids left and Novas to spare, and Lycan, Forest Spirit and Fire Eater aren't often used. As mentioned, we might be best off going for max speed against them with such a Grabbow, sporting Arsenic. Discards won't hurt much with that, and our offense will be quite a bit higher than a control-immobow they might bring. Cards like EQ and Deflag will be almost wasted cards for them.

Hm.. wonder if Devtal is a good choice against any opponent we have now. I'ma look into that later.
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Offline deuce22

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25544.msg329433#msg329433
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2011, 12:17:48 pm »
Hm.. wonder if Devtal is a good choice against any opponent we have now. I'ma look into that later.
Was thinking this might be better for pika. Not sure if life is capable of fielding the sader deck anymore.

Offline EvaRiaTopic starter

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25544.msg329514#msg329514
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2011, 04:00:21 pm »
I think this is a good time to start packing a RT deck against :fire.

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25544.msg329568#msg329568
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2011, 05:28:27 pm »
:fire: I think Higs makes quite a bit of sense here. I think that RTs may be better spent elsewhere (including future rounds). Grabbow with Arse sounds good, I'll test it tonight, and I'll be in chat when I'm doing it.
:light: EQ sounds good.
:life: devtal is quite good and we've at least managed to avoid fielding it all the time. So while they may prepare for it, it's a risky decision for them to try and counter it directly.
:death: I'm a bit leery of using Titans here, especially without the purify. I tested this during vault building and acceleration seems too slow. It would be great if we could all help will with this testing and compile some things for when he comes back.
Not sure on other matchups,
:water: PU Phoenix looks good.
:entropy: They're probably a bit mad at us right now. Deuce did the most extensive testing vs. entropy I think so far, so could you shed some light, please?
:darkness: The stall they played last round is pretty ugly to deal with. No clue here.
:earth: Eva most definitely has the experience here to talk about what works/doesn't work, right?

Can we start talking about the latter three matches? Having at least some discussion on each one helps everybody out.

Offline deuce22

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25544.msg329577#msg329577
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2011, 05:54:48 pm »
:entropy: They're probably a bit mad at us right now. Deuce did the most extensive testing vs. entropy I think so far, so could you shed some light, please?
I think they are starting to realize just how epic fried cat is, so that is #1 on my differential. They have SS, and recently they've replaced 1 EQ with a BH, which has made it even more deadly. And lastly, pandebonium is a long shot concern after losing the last 2 rounds to team fire. They did beat death this round, but it was subbed, so they can't salvage more bonewalls. As a side note, I mentioned in chat after my victory last round that I wanted to use our sanc stall, which zeru found interesting. So, if he actually takes that into consideration, that may be even more reason to take fried cats against us.

Regardless, whatever we take against entropy must have 6 lightnings. I would focus on developing a deck that consistently beats their fried cat and modified Scrambled Shriekers.

:darkness: The stall they played last round is pretty ugly to deal with. No clue here.
The deck I posted earlier (EQ Grabby PU) destroys their stall 9-1. I tested a few games against their EQ devbow, and it won about 60-70% of the time. I haven't tested it against anything else of theirs yet, but in theory, it should beat each of them pretty consistently because they don't use nova very often (EQ ftw) and they love to buff creatures (PU ftw). My only other concern is devtal. I have no idea how my deck holds up against it, but I doubt that they would risk giving us an uber salvage. Plus, I would assume nova + EQ > devtal.

EDIT: seems to do well against devtal, but kind of struggles against their gargoyle grabbow...

:earth: Eva most definitely has the experience here to talk about what works/doesn't work, right?
miracle sanc stall again?

EDIT: Looking at our salvages, I had this crazy idea of some sort of an entropy stall using antimatter + pandas. Not sure if it would even work...

Offline pikachufan2164

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25544.msg329656#msg329656
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2011, 08:35:56 pm »
:life: I'm fine with switching to Devtal :)

Devtal should be fine as long as the Sanc stall doesn't show up. It did lose last round, but they could still field it if they saved the Sancs and Crusaders from discards. I should also be able to defeat a Devtosis quasi-mirror match, since wavedash and I are on the same footing in terms of quanta acceleration via upgrades. Decks with Novas are going to require an initial Fractalling of Vamps instead of Devourers, unless they get a terrible start.

I'll do more testing before I give any definitive answers.

:entropy: They won't be packing BH in their non-Lt./Gen. versions of Scrambled Shriekers, since it costs 4 :gravity unupped -- the upped version was used because it's cheaper and easier to cast from Novas. (Also because they probably had a few extras from Discord/BH)

Here's what I have developed for them:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 52q 52q 52q 52r 52r 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 61o 61o 61o 61o 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61t 61t 61t 63a 63a 63a 8pk

An Arsendial variant. Lots of permanents for distraction; build up poison with Arsenics, and chain Sundials, Bone Walls and Dim Shields as needed (remember that Dim Shields block weapons, but Sundials don't. Also, Dim Shield for creature swarms, and Bone Wall for when there are fewer creatures on the table). Be careful about drawing with the Sundials, though -- you don't want to deck out.

Does great against Fried Cat because of the sheer number of permanents (Dim Shield is awesome for blocking their swarms), and same for Scrambled Shriekers (fewer and slower creatures means that your Bone Wall + Lightning combo will be more effective).

31 cards to avoid losing by deckout, since damage potential is very low (especially when the Arsenics get Deflagged) and shields are a problem to get around if they hit the field earlier than Arsenic.

This might actually also win against their stalls, since Arsenic is awesome at getting damage to stick, and you also have Lightnings to close the gap when you're ready to take the win.


NOTE: We only have 19 Novas in the Vault.

5 (Arsendial for :entropy) + 3 (Flying Titan for :death) + 5 (Novagrabby #1) + 6 (Novagrabby #2) = 19 in total
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Offline deuce22

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25544.msg329660#msg329660
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2011, 08:49:48 pm »
Not sure what is left with the vault, but the deck I used last round consistently beat fried cats and the non-BH SS

Offline EvaRiaTopic starter

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25544.msg329685#msg329685
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2011, 09:40:44 pm »
EQ Grabbow isn't faring to well for me in preliminary testing.

Dune stall wrecks me from RTs and their grabbow just outrushes me.

I'm still liking Azure Wings as my deck so far.

Offline deuce22

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25544.msg329715#msg329715
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2011, 10:43:30 pm »
I'm starting to have 2nd thoughts about using my EQ grabbow as well. Darkness seems like they tend to switch up their decks each round, so I don't think I am going to see another stall. With that said, I think I need to ditch the EQs and add some CC. Will test it later to see how it performs against their novabows and if it stands a chance against their stall.

EDIT: considering changing my deck to this. still needs more testing
EDIT2: beats both their gargoyle grabbow, EQ devbow, and acceledolls easy. It can beat their stall, but AI isn't the best, so going to guess 50% win rate there.

Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4vh 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 52q 590 590 590 590 5c1 5f6 5f6 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 620 620 620 8pm

Offline pikachufan2164

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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25544.msg329762#msg329762
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2011, 12:36:27 am »
OK, here's my Devtal for :life
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5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5ut 5ut 61q 61q 61q 61t 61t 622 622 622 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 7ta 7ta 81q 8pt

Essentially the same thing Higs took against Wizel, but with 3 fewer upped Pends.

It works against everything that's not the Druidsader Sanc Stall.

The other stalls (SS/EQ Stall, Fire Stall, Freeze Stall) are a bit of an uphill struggle, but still beatable.

Almost all rushes/mid-range decks that don't use Novas are pretty much a walk in the park. The RT rush is a bit of a problem at times if they can continuously negate your draw for a few turns with Rewinds. FFQ/Hope is painful if they get set up, since I have no Lobos -- the best I can do to get rid of an FFQ is to throw 2 Lightnings at it. Pestosis can be dangerous if it can set up, but I can generally outspeed it with either a faster Fractal, or Lightning to fry the Mitosis Dev.

Nova-based rushes (Novagrabby, Novapoison) generally require a preliminary Vamptal instead of the usual Devtal, unless they had a bad start and didn't draw Novas to protect their quanta pools.
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Re: Round 5 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25544.msg329809#msg329809
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2011, 01:59:31 am »
Talked to Deuce a little earlier about my matchup against :earth - currently leaning towards either Sanc Stall or Bonebolt, probably the former. Anyone have any thoughts on this matchup?

 

blarg: pikachufan2164,deuce22