Fractal | Fractal

[Sir Valimont]

the mindgate fractal comparison doe not work one copies any card the other only creatures

It is true that maybe the two values should not be equal.
However a random card vs a specific creature sounds about equal in value to me. The random any card is not worth 3x a specific creature in any case.

Hm ... Well I like the intelligence of your comparison and the method of your comparison ... I'm just not sure I agree with the applicability of the comparison! I think there's a large difference between copying any card and being able to do that every turn, effectively keeping pace with one's opponent, and a one-time creature binge. If I analyze the numbers, the conclusion I'd draw is actually that Mindgate could cost 1 less per activation ... I suppose it's just a matter of opinion. I think the opinion that Fractal is OP could make sense and is defensible, I just don't agree with it ... and I especially don't agree that there is an objective way to call it OP like what you're sort of doing here ... To me the only objective gauge already tells us that it is not OP: that being the fact that Fractal decks are not considered broadly superior to others.

[OldTrees]

the mindgate fractal comparison doe not work one copies any card the other only creatures

It is true that maybe the two values should not be equal.
However a random card vs a specific creature sounds about equal in value to me. The random any card is not worth 3x a specific creature in any case.

Hm ... Well I like the intelligence of your comparison and the method of your comparison ... I'm just not sure I agree with the applicability of the comparison! I think there's a large difference between copying any card and being able to do that every turn, effectively keeping pace with one's opponent, and a one-time creature binge. If I analyze the numbers, the conclusion I'd draw is actually that Mindgate could cost 1 less per activation ... I suppose it's just a matter of opinion. I think the opinion that Fractal is OP could make sense and is defensible, I just don't agree with it ... and I especially don't agree that there is an objective way to call it OP like what you're sort of doing here ... To me the only objective gauge already tells us that it is not OP: that being the fact that Fractal decks are not considered broadly superior to others.

So the first question is: How a semi random card of any type compares to a specific creature?"
I think that once factoring the semirandomness in they are about equal in value.

The second question is: How to measure a oneshot vs a wand/'on a stick'?
Here I assume that "wands" are balanced by Activation Cost + Casting Cost of Wand/Average number of turns = Casting Cost of oneshot.

Balance is relative to the power of other cards. If Mindgate is not on par with Fractal then either Mindgate is UP or Fractal is OP. In truth, if we include spawning creatures like FFQ as card generating and casting then we have Card Generation = 2 quanta. So maybe Fractal was OP and Mindgate is UP?

However 1 thing is clear. Fractal is not Gamebreakingly OP. It is at worse off by a few quanta. Since it is not gamebreakingly OP it will not have the clear indicator that you wish to use as a gauge. Zanz is very good at card design and rarely makes anything with disastrous effects enter the game. The 2 turn sundial was the only example of Gamebreaking degree of OP.

[Sir Valimont]

That makes a lot of sense OldTrees and I easily concede most of your points. I guess I would want to think a little bit about the way Mindgate gives an advantage versus Fractal ... and mention two things:

Even when something expensive has a better per-cost effect, cheaper cards have advantages just by dint of being cheaper. They inherently resist denial effects, can be played faster, and are usable in a wider variety of decks. The "savings" in quanta one might get from an expensive card work much the way savings work in the supermarket ... the big pack is a better value but requires more up front. Don't forget that Fractal also drains all remaining quanta as well.

The semi-randomness of the card aside, Mindgate's other major advantage over Fractal is of course that it can deliver all kinds of different cards to the user. First of all it delivers pillars, permanents, spells ... and second it can deliver different cards from one turn to the next. Fractal is limited in its use to cards that benefit from a synergy with copies of themselves; Mindgate is not limited by that.

Just some thoughts ... I don't mean to dispute your eloquently made and quite good points.

[Essence]

Fractal can haz fortune Essence? =]

It should, I gave it to Zanz in chat a few days ago:

It's like looking at yourself looking at yourself look at yourself...only without a mirror.

[Atico]

Fractal doesn't cost 9 quantum, as You write... It costs ALL Aether quantum...
In my opinion this update destroy fractal decks. Why? Because we can fractal one turn later, so we often have one card more in hand, so when we fractal we can get 2-3 cards instead of 3-4.

[Higurashi]

It has yet to destroy or even have a noticeable effect on any Fractal deck I've ran, and I've ran them all. Perhaps you need to optimise them to ensure your hand doesn't get clogged? Usually you only need 4 Fractals, and at most you have some utility cards like Steal/Deflagration, or defense like Dim Shield.

[Ekki]

Fractal doesn't cost 9 quantum, as You write... It costs ALL Aether quantum...
In my opinion this update destroy fractal decks. Why? Because we can fractal one turn later, so we often have one card more in hand, so when we fractal we can get 2-3 cards instead of 3-4.

Truely, if you can only fractal 2-4 cards is because you're not using the right deck, you're using it in the wrong time, or you had a very bad draw.

[TheForbiddenOracle]

Unupped fractal is now 10 upped is 9 

[Atico]

Fractal doesn't cost 9 quantum, as You write... It costs ALL Aether quantum...
In my opinion this update destroy fractal decks. Why? Because we can fractal one turn later, so we often have one card more in hand, so when we fractal we can get 2-3 cards instead of 3-4.

Truely, if you can only fractal 2-4 cards is because you're not using the right deck, you're using it in the wrong time, or you had a very bad draw.

Hmm, so what can I do, when I want to fractal RoL at the begining game and I have for example 2 Hopes, Dragon, second Fractal and Miracle. 5 cards which I can't use now (I can wait to threw card or use Hope), but when I will be waiting I can draw third Hope, next fractal, next Electro... and it doesn't solve this problem.
It isn't bad draw. It is normal draw.
The same problem is with Phoenix, Pest etc.

[Marvaddin]

So this is the Fractal nerf? 1 quanta cost? Pffff. Like said, Fractal is OP because of its effect, its cost is just ok. In practice Fractal will still be a card in every rainbow deck, beyond key card of RoL Hope and other decks. My question is, is this nerf minor than it should / could be because of people complaining about it, or because zanz dont want Eternal Phoenix becoming easier?

[Memorystick]

So this is the Fractal nerf? 1 quanta cost? Pffff. Like said, Fractal is OP because of its effect, its cost is just ok. In practice Fractal will still be a card in every rainbow deck, beyond key card of RoL Hope and other decks. My question is, is this nerf minor than it should / could be because of people complaining about it, or because zanz dont want Eternal Phoenix becoming easier?

EP could fund up to 13|12 fractal on the same turn he'd afford the current version. Please note that Cards are balanced around use and other Cards, not Decks or False Gods.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot the nerf was lowered. Oh well, the second part still applies

[Marvaddin]

Your speak sounds a bit strange. Cards are balanced around use, not decks? Where am I supposed to use a card, if not in a deck? The presence of the Fractal card in most decks that can afford it, like I have mentioned... isnt it "use"? 

The EP part was a joke.