Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game
Other Topics => Forum Archive => World of Elements => Topic started by: Scaredgirl on November 03, 2011, 01:26:44 pm
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It's time to go through all the 13 skill trees and make them "perfect". Main goals are:
1. Make all the skills fit to the theme of their path
2. Balance skills between different skill trees
3. Make big changes now that we have the technology trees and City buildings
We'll start from Aether.
Post any ideas if you have. Thanks.
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Ok, I will start.
First some general stuff (Yeah, I could have said it earlier, but I wasn't sure you were finished yet):
I understand the numbers on the left of a skill indicate the number of action points that skill uses, but that is never said anywhere. Also it might be a good idea to indicate passive skills with a 'F' (Free) or a 'P' (passive). (Free might be not the best option because I can imagine an active skill costing no action points but still costing a relic) Speaking of the relic cost, how will that be indicated? How about writing the AP-cost in italics and/or underlined?
A minor thing, but I have a netbook with a 12 inch screen, and a maximum screen resolution of 1366*768, which is usually fine, but the skill trees page is just too wide. If you could manage to make it a bit smaller that would be great. (Right now I miss the last 'd' in the Duplication description and everything right of it.).
Now on the skills themselves:
Dimensional Travel: Nobody knows that what that is supposed to do, so I have no idea about the balance. And bad wording is bad: "Move BETWEEN this world TO the next". :-\
Phantom Form: Not sure what this will do: does it mean you have 4 action points even when locked in battle (thus allowing you one more step in finishing the battle first round, or 2 extra steps on the second round). Will the phantom form be visible on the map for other players? Can the phantom form perform any action he want (might be a bit overpowered, it would allow chain-charging: attack someone, and while fighting (agressive) charge someone else, and while fighting ... etc.), or just walking (and if so, only normal move actions, or also fast travel).
Dimensional Walk: "3 hexes in any direction": does that mean only in strait lines (/, ---, \) or are routes like this also allowed __/?
Energy Barrier: "Non stacking": I can't see a symbol indicating the use of a relic, but if this skill uses one and multiple people use the skill do they all lose a relic?
Energy Strike: Feels more appropriate for the :fire skill tree. Maybe it should have another (maybe additional) effect, some thing immobilizing: like target can spend only 3 AP on his next turn.
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I understand the numbers on the left of a skill indicate the number of action points that skill uses, but that is never said anywhere.
(http://i.imgur.com/4Tef9.png)
Speaking of the relic cost, how will that be indicated? How about writing the AP-cost in italics and/or underlined?
I tried to find a good place for the relic icon but didn't really find any that I was happy about. I decided to just skip it, and use:
A) Cost underlined to show a Relic is needed
B) "Consume a Relic.." added to description
It's not optimal but too many icons might make things too confusing, plus there is the space issue.
EDIT: Adding my own comments...
Outworlder - Does this allow you to use a mark that you normally wouldn't have access to?
Energy Strike - "...in the same or adjacent hex": Is this effective as of the end of the Movement Phase? (i.e. If I use this skill, but the target player moves more than 1 hex away from me, does it still work?)
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Thanks for feedback.
I understand the numbers on the left of a skill indicate the number of action points that skill uses, but that is never said anywhere. Also it might be a good idea to indicate passive skills with a 'F' (Free) or a 'P' (passive). (Free might be not the best option because I can imagine an active skill costing no action points but still costing a relic) Speaking of the relic cost, how will that be indicated? How about writing the AP-cost in italics and/or underlined?
A minor thing, but I have a netbook with a 12 inch screen, and a maximum screen resolution of 1366*768, which is usually fine, but the skill trees page is just too wide. If you could manage to make it a bit smaller that would be great. (Right now I miss the last 'd' in the Duplication description and everything right of it.).
I don't think 'F' or 'P' is needed because the absence of a number should be pretty clear indication that there is no cost involved. But I did a small visual tweak and added a small horizontal line to make it easier to understand. Skills that cost no action points but cost a Relic, will most likely not happen because players should have control over when they lose relics.
I also added 'Action Point' cost thing at the top of the page for clarification.
Page size is a problem that I cannot fix unfortunately. I've used that same size for most of the other tabs, including the new character sheet, and changing it now would be a nightmare. I have a 10 year old laptop that shows all the content and I used that for maximum size. People who have these crappy small laptops, are pretty much screwed and should buy better computers :)
Problem is of course that when I decrease the horizontal size, I have to increase the vertical size. This is why I have to pick some size that is "optimal", and just go with that.
Dimensional Travel: Nobody knows that what that is supposed to do, so I have no idea about the balance. And bad wording is bad: "Move BETWEEN this world TO the next". :-\
Phantom Form: Not sure what this will do: does it mean you have 4 action points even when locked in battle (thus allowing you one more step in finishing the battle first round, or 2 extra steps on the second round). Will the phantom form be visible on the map for other players? Can the phantom form perform any action he want (might be a bit overpowered, it would allow chain-charging: attack someone, and while fighting (agressive) charge someone else, and while fighting ... etc.), or just walking (and if so, only normal move actions, or also fast travel).
Dimensional Walk: "3 hexes in any direction": does that mean only in strait lines (/, ---, \) or are routes like this also allowed __/?
Energy Barrier: "Non stacking": I can't see a symbol indicating the use of a relic, but if this skill uses one and multiple people use the skill do they all lose a relic?
Energy Strike: Feels more appropriate for the :fire skill tree. Maybe it should have another (maybe additional) effect, some thing immobilizing: like target can spend only 3 AP on his next turn.
Fixed the wording.
It will be visible. And yes, you can get bonus AP's that way (if you win the battle). Nope, you can only use 'Move' action, nothing more. Phantom Form is still under heavy construction though. It was just a quick idea I had that I think would fit the theme.
Straight line only.
Everyone loses a Relic. This is easy to avoid with some communication and teamwork.
Energy Strike is also one of my quick ideas. I actually think it fits pretty well to aether because of these two:
(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Lightning.png) (http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Spark.png)
:aether clearly has fast burst damage, which I translated to the skill. This brings us to one important point: WoE skills should reflect the cards of that element.
:time already has an immobilizing skill I think. Fits better to :time imo.
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I understand the numbers on the left of a skill indicate the number of action points that skill uses, but that is never said anywhere.
(http://i.imgur.com/4Tef9.png)
that was added after I commented ;)
Speaking of the relic cost, how will that be indicated? How about writing the AP-cost in italics and/or underlined?
I tried to find a good place for the relic icon but didn't really find any that I was happy about. I decided to just skip it, and use:
A) Cost underlined to show a Relic is needed
B) "Consume a Relic.." added to description
It's not optimal but too many icons might make things too confusing, plus there is the space issue.
Yeah, I'm aware of that post, but I don't see anything like that in the skill trees
EDIT: Adding my own comments...
Outworlder - Does this allow you to use a mark that you normally wouldn't have access to?
Energy Strike - "...in the same or adjacent hex": Is this effective as of the end of the Movement Phase? (i.e. If I use this skill, but the target player moves more than 1 hex away from me, does it still work?)
Thanks for feedback.
I understand the numbers on the left of a skill indicate the number of action points that skill uses, but that is never said anywhere. Also it might be a good idea to indicate passive skills with a 'F' (Free) or a 'P' (passive). (Free might be not the best option because I can imagine an active skill costing no action points but still costing a relic) Speaking of the relic cost, how will that be indicated? How about writing the AP-cost in italics and/or underlined?
A minor thing, but I have a netbook with a 12 inch screen, and a maximum screen resolution of 1366*768, which is usually fine, but the skill trees page is just too wide. If you could manage to make it a bit smaller that would be great. (Right now I miss the last 'd' in the Duplication description and everything right of it.).
I don't think 'F' or 'P' is needed because the absence of a number should be pretty clear indication that there is no cost involved. But I did a small visual tweak and added a small horizontal line to make it easier to understand. Skills that cost no action points but cost a Relic, will most likely not happen because players should have control over when they lose relics.No, I was thinking of an activated skill that simply doesn't cost any (additional) action points, but still needs to be manually activated, for example some kind of buff to another action. Example, a replacement for the cloud rider skill: Consume one relic. On your next (special) move action you can move 1 additional hex. (but of course it can only be used once a turn)
I also added 'Action Point' cost thing at the top of the page for clarification.
Page size is a problem that I cannot fix unfortunately. I've used that same size for most of the other tabs, including the new character sheet, and changing it now would be a nightmare. I have a 10 year old laptop that shows all the content and I used that for maximum size. People who have these crappy small laptops, are pretty much screwed and should buy better computers :)
Problem is of course that when I decrease the horizontal size, I have to increase the vertical size. This is why I have to pick some size that is "optimal", and just go with that.
Yeah, I can see that, it was just a suggestion
Dimensional Travel: Nobody knows that what that is supposed to do, so I have no idea about the balance. And bad wording is bad: "Move BETWEEN this world TO the next". :-\
Phantom Form: Not sure what this will do: does it mean you have 4 action points even when locked in battle (thus allowing you one more step in finishing the battle first round, or 2 extra steps on the second round). Will the phantom form be visible on the map for other players? Can the phantom form perform any action he want (might be a bit overpowered, it would allow chain-charging: attack someone, and while fighting (agressive) charge someone else, and while fighting ... etc.), or just walking (and if so, only normal move actions, or also fast travel).
Dimensional Walk: "3 hexes in any direction": does that mean only in strait lines (/, ---, \) or are routes like this also allowed __/?
Energy Barrier: "Non stacking": I can't see a symbol indicating the use of a relic, but if this skill uses one and multiple people use the skill do they all lose a relic?
Energy Strike: Feels more appropriate for the :fire skill tree. Maybe it should have another (maybe additional) effect, some thing immobilizing: like target can spend only 3 AP on his next turn.
Fixed the wording.
It will be visible. And yes, you can get bonus AP's that way (if you win the battle). Nope, you can only use 'Move' action, nothing more. Phantom Form is still under heavy construction though. It was just a quick idea I had that I think would fit the theme.
Straight line only.
Everyone loses a Relic. This is easy to avoid with some communication and teamwork. exactly my idea
Energy Strike is also one of my quick ideas. I actually think it fits pretty well to aether because of these two:
(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Lightning.png) (http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Spark.png)
:aether clearly has fast burst damage, which I translated to the skill. This brings us to one important point: WoE skills should reflect the cards of that element.
Yeah, I noticed the similarity with lightning, but then, what would be the difference with cards like shockwave and fire bolt
:time already has an immobilizing skill I think. Fits better to :time imo.
I looked for skills like that, but I couldn't find one
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Yeah, I noticed the similarity with lightning, but then, what would be the difference with cards like shockwave and fire bolt
I looked for skills like that, but I couldn't find one
I didn't mean that direct damage is unique to :aether. The point is that :aether has cards that do that, therefore it fits the theme.
Manipulate Time eats Action Points.
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Been waiting for a thread like this for a while. Creative thought dump!!
Dimensional Walk: I am going to assume in straight lines. It is hard to say how balanced this is without seeing any of the changes to the other movement skills, but I will assume nothing else has changed. Standard move is 2/1. This makes moving 1.33/1, but needing to move in straight lines and the only thing you do in the day. Balanced.
Outworlder: My major dislike of this skill stemmed from how hard it was to get marks previously. Now that everyone will have 8 marks at max level, this skill might be a bit under tuned, but it's still wonky to me. It's almost too strong early then fades in usefulness later. My vote is to axe it due to its 'overlap' in effect with mirror image. Replace.
Bane of Time: This comment will work for all the 'Bane of XXX' skills. I feel, they are too mandatory (necessary for any T3) to be so.... blech. I mean... 2xp for winning against 7.6% of the people in the game. That's.... bad. Buff!
Suggested buffs:
- In addition, gain +1 xp if opponent uses the time mark. Non-stacking. (+2 exp for time opponent with time mark... not 3) This will make this ability useful for everyone in the game and allow some thought for those who attack you/ you attack. Your opponent must choose to use a time mark and risk losing and you gaining more off of their choice.
- In addition, gain +1 salvage if opponent uses the time mark. See comment above.
- In addition, gain +2 upgrades when fighting on time's land. It's useful when attacking time, but might come with some exploits, like teaming up with time... which is opposite of what we want.
- In addition, you can convert any common time cards into your element's cards. (costs 1 AP each change-over). Complicated. I'd prefer one of the top two buffs, but, this will allow someone who hates time to kill them, salvage their cards and not... like... ever have to use them. Makes sense to me!
Mirror Image: The strength of this depends soloy on how easy you are making it to gain uncommon cards. At the moment I will assume we are re-making characters each 'game' so, gaining uncommon cards will be easier, since you wouldn't want them to take too long to acquire (as you could do with a persistent world.) I'll also assume these 6 cards are free and disappear after your duel is over. So, in my mind, this ability is super strong for T1. 6 free cards of your opponent's element, using their mark and all in aether (arguably the best splash element). I'm on the fence, but I'd nerf to T2. Nerf.
Duplication: You'll need to fix the other 'free card' abilities to match this one if you leave it here. Any common, free, if you have it. That's some strong stuff. In using the life's talent for free cards, I feel like this one is balanced, you just need to make the other ones better. Balanced.
Evasion: Perfect change. Balanced.
Ethereal Bond: I'm assuming it takes a relic, if so... Balanced.
Energy Barrier: Not sure why you changed this. Did you find 10 free HP on a wall too strong? I would put it back to 10 HP, non-stacking and 2 AP and a relic. As of now it is too much like the air's town protection ability. It's simple. if you are going to siege an aether town, bring friends. If you don't like 10 HP, make it 5 HP, non-stacking, or some other number. Revert.
Doppelganger: So overshadowed by Mirror image and totally situational. If you leave it as is, you should allow Parallel Universe as well, for those who don't have the upgraded version. I think you should put Mirror image here and axe this ability. Replace.
Phantom Form: Beautiful ability. Much better than Phase Shifter. Make it "you can choose to teleport to your phantom" and I then I will feel it is T3 worthy. Can be used as a diversionary ability as well as utility. Slight Buff.
Energy Strike: I liked Debilitate. It felt balanced and a good fit to aether's kit. They don't get upgrades, they don't get cool combat abilities (variable mark, free cards is, good, but not 'cool!'). If it is a problem with players not tracking de-buffs well, then I can understand this change. Otherwise it feels like a lackluster T3 ability. Revert.
Dimensional Travel: Until I know what it does, I cannot comment on it. I am sure you have a plan for it, but unless we know what that is, it will be hard to shoot for it/balance it. Unknown.
Tree Formation: Phantom side is about effecting movement, your body, your presence in this world. All the abilities fit. Energy side is about exerting pure energy into your environment. Mirror image, doppelganger feel off here. If I look at it like using energy and affecting your body to oppose your will onto your victims, it could feel better... Yea, they are alright.
New skill suggestions: Okay, removing outworlder, moving mirror image up to where doppleganger is, I am left with 2 holes. Here are my idea suggestions:
- Put doppelganger in T1 if you still want it, make it 3 copies of PU or TU.
- Fading: Passive. If you lose all coin tosses within a duel and lose, discard 2 less cards per toss. Mechanics, if you lose 0-2, there is a 25% chance to discard only 2 cards. If you lose 1-2, there is a 12.5% chance to discard no cards. It is like you are shifting into the other dimension to reduce damage to your body/army and if you win a toss, you are 'more on the aggressive' so you can't fade and attack at the same time!
- Scry: 2 AP. see target's actions for 3 days. Since we have the ability to see other teammates actions, all you would have to do is add whomever you scry to that team's actions list. It might be a bit for the developers to handle though...
- Lightning: 3 AP. Target player in same hex or adjacent hex discards 2 cards. A washed down version of Energy Strike. Usable only once a day and T1, so counter-able by light's chosen one, death's blood of the undead.
- Aether Chain: 2 AP. Target player in your hex. For the next three turns you may jump to them for another 2 AP. Might be too complicated, but was one of my ideas to fix phase shifter.
- Shift of Power: Passive. You can upgrade up to 6 cards as though they were aether cards. These upgrades cost twice as much. Would be super synergy with mirror image, but I kind of like that. Allows some crazy choices but seems balanced for T1. Costs twice as much means you need to spend 2 aether upgrades for each out of element upgrade you use this way.
Questions:
- At what levels do you gain mark skills? 1,4,7 etc?
- Is 24 the max level?
- Do we still gain 1 upgraded card for each skill point in a tree, only useful for that element, then 1 free upgraded card every 3 levels?
EDIT: fixed spelling....
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Dimensional Travel being this big unknown seemingly weak skill makes :aether very unappealing to me in WoE.
People wish to know what their strongest possible skill will be, surprises are nice but not when it comes to this.
I'll comment more after reading what others have said.
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Been waiting for a thread like this for a while. Creative thought dump!!
Dimensional Walk: I am going to assume in straight lines. It is hard to say how balanced this is without seeing any of the changes to the other movement skills, but I will assume nothing else has changed. Standard move is 2/1. This makes moving 1.33/1, but needing to move in straight lines and the only thing you do in the day. Balanced.
Outworlder: My major dislike of this skill stemmed from how hard it was to get marks previously. Now that everyone will have 8 marks at max level, this skill might be a bit under tuned, but it's still wonky to me. It's almost too strong early then fades in usefulness later. My vote is to axe it due to its 'overlap' in effect with mirror image. Replace.
Bane of Time: This comment will work for all the 'Bane of XXX' skills. I feel, they are too mandatory (necessary for any T3) to be so.... blech. I mean... 2xp for winning against 7.6% of the people in the game. That's.... bad. Buff!
Suggested buffs:
- In addition, gain +1 xp if opponent uses the time mark. Non-stacking. (+2 exp for time opponent with time mark... not 3) This will make this ability useful for everyone in the game and allow some thought for those who attack you/ you attack. Your opponent must choose to use a time mark and risk losing and you gaining more off of their choice.
- In addition, gain +1 salvage if opponent uses the time mark. See comment above.
- In addition, gain +2 upgrades when fighting on time's land. It's useful when attacking time, but might come with some exploits, like teaming up with time... which is opposite of what we want.
- In addition, you can convert any common time cards into your element's cards. (costs 1 AP each change-over). Complicated. I'd prefer one of the top two buffs, but, this will allow someone who hates time to kill them, salvage their cards and not... like... ever have to use them. Makes sense to me!
Mirror Image: The strength of this depends soloy on how easy you are making it to gain uncommon cards. At the moment I will assume we are re-making characters each 'game' so, gaining uncommon cards will be easier, since you wouldn't want them to take too long to acquire (as you could do with a persistent world.) I'll also assume these 6 cards are free and disappear after your duel is over. So, in my mind, this ability is super strong for T1. 6 free cards of your opponent's element, using their mark and all in aether (arguably the best splash element). I'm on the fence, but I'd nerf to T2. Nerf.
Duplication: You'll need to fix the other 'free card' abilities to match this one if you leave it here. Any common, free, if you have it. That's some strong stuff. In using the life's talent for free cards, I feel like this one is balanced, you just need to make the other ones better. Balanced.
Evasion: Perfect change. Balanced.
Ethereal Bond: I'm assuming it takes a relic, if so... Balanced.
Energy Barrier: Not sure why you changed this. Did you find 10 free HP on a wall too strong? I would put it back to 10 HP, non-stacking and 2 AP and a relic. As of now it is too much like the air's town protection ability. It's simple. if you are going to siege an aether town, bring friends. If you don't like 10 HP, make it 5 HP, non-stacking, or some other number. Revert.
Doppelganger: So overshadowed by Mirror image and totally situational. If you leave it as is, you should allow Parallel Universe as well, for those who don't have the upgraded version. I think you should put Mirror image here and axe this ability. Replace.
Phantom Form: Beautiful ability. Much better than Phase Shifter. Make it "you can choose to teleport to your phantom" and I then I will feel it is T3 worthy. Can be used as a diversionary ability as well as utility. Slight Buff.
Energy Strike: I liked Debilitate. It felt balanced and a good fit to aether's kit. They don't get upgrades, they don't get cool combat abilities (variable mark, free cards is, good, but not 'cool!'). If it is a problem with players not tracking de-buffs well, then I can understand this change. Otherwise it feels like a lackluster T3 ability. Revert.
Dimensional Travel: Until I know what it does, I cannot comment on it. I am sure you have a plan for it, but unless we know what that is, it will be hard to shoot for it/balance it. Unknown.
Tree Formation: Phantom side is about effecting movement, your body, your presence in this world. All the abilities fit. Energy side is about exerting pure energy into your environment. Mirror image, doppelganger feel off here. If I look at it like using energy and affecting your body to oppose your will onto your victims, it could feel better... Yea, they are alright.
New skill suggestions: Okay, removing outworlder, moving mirror image up to where doppleganger is, I am left with 2 holes. Here are my idea suggestions:
- Put doppelganger in T1 if you still want it, make it 3 copies of PU or TU.
- Fading: Passive. If you lose all coin tosses within a duel and lose, discard 2 less cards per toss. Mechanics, if you lose 0-2, there is a 25% chance to discard only 2 cards. If you lose 1-2, there is a 12.5% chance to discard no cards. It is like you are shifting into the other dimension to reduce damage to your body/army and if you win a toss, you are 'more on the aggressive' so you can't fade and attack at the same time!
- Scry: 2 AP. see target's actions for 3 days. Since we have the ability to see other teammates actions, all you would have to do is add whomever you scry to that team's actions list. It might be a bit for the developers to handle though...
- Lightning: 3 AP. Target player in same hex or adjacent hex discards 2 cards. A washed down version of Energy Strike. Usable only once a day and T1, so counter-able by light's chosen one, death's blood of the undead.
- Aether Chain: 2 AP. Target player in your hex. For the next three turns you may jump to them for another 2 AP. Might be too complicated, but was one of my ideas to fix phase shifter.
- Shift of Power: Passive. You can upgrade up to 6 cards as though they were aether cards. These upgrades cost twice as much. Would be super synergy with mirror image, but I kind of like that. Allows some crazy choices but seems balanced for T1. Costs twice as much means you need to spend 2 aether upgrades for each out of element upgrade you use this way.
Questions:
- At what levels do you gain mark skills? 1,4,7 etc?
- Is 24 the max level?
- Do we still gain 1 upgraded card for each skill point in a tree, only useful for that element, then 1 free upgraded card every 3 levels?
EDIT: fixed spelling....
There's some good stuff there.
I don't think that Outworlder is that powerful early in the game.. and when in max level, although you have 8 Marks, it could still be useful to be able to use those 4 other Marks, because that way you could surprise your opponent by playing a deck he didn't know you can play. But maybe I'm wrong.
I agree with the Bane buff. I increased the buff to +3XP and gave +1XP when neutralizing a hex. I like that Mark suggestion so I'll add that one as well.
I kind of disagree with the OPness of Mirror Image. I guess something like that should be tested to see how good it actually is. To me it's not that special really, especially later in the game.
My beef with the current Evasion is that it automatically evades Aggressive Charge. But what if I'm fortified and want my opponent to attack? Difficult to fix though.
I nerfed Energy Barrier because it was OP and lacked stacking. It enabled one player to fully block Siege done by 5 players. Current version blocks only 3, which is better imo. I also like the fact that it stacks because I think it fits better thematically: the more elementals you have maintaining the barrier, the more damage it absorbs. It will have to be capped though, which I will do right now.
I disagree about the Doppelganger skill. I think that the fact that the cards are upped, is a big advantage over Mirror Image. Seems like we see the usefulness of Mirror Image very differently :) Maybe someone else wants to give their opinion on the subject? About downgrading.. players are allowed to downgrade all upped cards if they don't have those upped cards on their account.
Letting players choose with Phantom Form is a bit of a problem.. how would it work technically?
Answers to the questions:
1, 3, 6 ..
Yes.
Yes.
I copied one of my old card ideas and changed :aether champ skill a bit. It's not final but I think this kind of "pet" thing could be interesting. You would have this big monster with you that you could move around the map, attacking other players and cities. You would fight its battles yourself, using one of the pre-determined mono-aether decks with tons of upped cards.
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I disagree about the Doppelganger skill. I think that the fact that the cards are upped, is a big advantage over Mirror Image. Seems like we see the usefulness of Mirror Image very differently Maybe someone else wants to give their opinion on the subject?
I'm unhappy with Doppelganger for a completely different reason: there aren't (m)any other skills that require you to either build your deck around them or ignore the fact that you have them. Doppelganger is a slick idea, but forcing a choice between "use TU or waste the skill" is kind of lame.
How about taking it meta: "You may invoke this power at the beginning of any battle. You fight with an exact copy of your opponent's deck. If you win, salvage 2 additional cards."
That's a Doppelganger, WoE style. :)
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(...)
My beef with the current Evasion is that it automatically evades Aggressive Charge. But what if I'm fortified and want my opponent to attack? Difficult to fix though.
(...)
How about adding a second line to the skill description: "Fortifying cancels this skill." It would make sense, I mean, when you just prepared yourself for battle why flee from it?
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Thoughts and questions:
Tier 1:
Dimensional Walk - As Dict already mentioned, the wording's not very clear whether it needs to be in a straight line. Other then that, and assuming we will add terrain effects at some point, this skill is good.
Outworlder - Kind of loses it's usefulness the higher level you get, but it's only a t1, so while it's a good candidate to be replaced if we come up with something, it's also not a problem if we leave it as-is.
Bane of Time - The buff is appreciated. Looks good. Now Revenge is even more in need of a buff, but we can get to that later.
Mirror Image - This one is fairly awesome, just for adding a good bit of flexibility in the early game. The added flexibility in deckbuilding is almost OP for a t1, if we had something to replace it I'd consider moving it to the doppelganger spot.
Duplication - The theme is good, but ofc it needs to be balanced vs all the other electrum/card earning methods. Basically, I think we need to first figure out how much a typical "work" action will give, and then we can evaluate skills like crafting and this one to see how they compare. Duplicate has the significant advantage of being able to add cards without being in one of the specific cities that sell those cards. It synergizes very well with Ethereal Bond, allowing you to recover from a loss even more quickly, because you can recreate lost cards without visiting a merchant. Assuming a "typical" work action can generate a little over 1 average card cost in income, then I'd suggest we should make this at least a 3AP action (to prevent double usage) and then call it balanced.
Tier 2:
Evasion - I like the new version. looks good. Dict's suggestion about it not applying if you fortify seems like a good one.
Ethereal Bond - I like this skill. seems balanced and useful. The requirement to "use" the skill is a little confusing, since we don't normally think of using AP in the spirit world, so I would either:
1. Change it to something like "You may resurrect in the same hex you were defeated in, instead of your capital."
2. Note somewhere that AP can be spent in the spirit world. Random thought: In that case we might even consider also just making resurrecting a 4AP action, so that rather than having no actions for a turn, you are delayed in the spirit world by the fact that resurrecting takes your actions for that turn. That might make skills like Dimensional Travel or Chosen One more intuitive.
Energy Barrier - A fun skill, and very powerful in a siege environment. Looks good.
Doppelganger - The "Gain X copies of Y card upped during battle" abilities are not my favorites, but their balanced fine, so we could just leave them alone unless someone comes up with a better idea.
Tier 3:
Phantom Form - Interesting. Moving MORE due to battle seems kinda random though.
Energy Strike - I'm not a huge fan of skills that force other players to discard cards as their main effect. For one, the effect becomes less and less potent as the game progresses, because forcing a player to discard their 3 least useful cards won't matter unless the target is so poor that they can't spare anything. Secondly, it doesn't have much benefit to the user of the skill. What would the player be trying to accomplish by using this ability? I suppose it could work as a way to drive off unwanted players that for some reason you don't want to battle and are confident they won't just attack you, but that's too limited an appeal for a t3. That's my opinion at least.
What if we gave it a "lobotomizing" effect? Something that stops a target player from using a designated t3 or lower skill for x turns? possibly keep the discarding effect too, or perhaps not, but either way it would be a more useful ability to it's owner. Thoughts?
Tier 4:
Dimensional Travel - Presumably this allows you to resurrect instantly (possibly at the cost of a move action), and also to move to the spirit world without having to lose a duel (useful for avoiding other players). Should we word the ethereal bond power so that you can return to the Normal world in the same place you left? Or would using this ability to move to the spirit world mean you return to your capital? Either one works, just need to clarify. This is a good capstone power.
EDIT: oh now it's changed to a summoning power I see. A cool idea certainly. Only one dimensional horror per champion or total on the map? How long does the NPC last? Of course, the big question is what sort of stats does the horror possess? I'll try to think of some suggestion for the horror's stats.
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I disagree about the Doppelganger skill. I think that the fact that the cards are upped, is a big advantage over Mirror Image. Seems like we see the usefulness of Mirror Image very differently Maybe someone else wants to give their opinion on the subject?
I'm unhappy with Doppelganger for a completely different reason: there aren't (m)any other skills that require you to either build your deck around them or ignore the fact that you have them. Doppelganger is a slick idea, but forcing a choice between "use TU or waste the skill" is kind of lame.
How about taking it meta: "You may invoke this power at the beginning of any battle. You fight with an exact copy of your opponent's deck. If you win, salvage 2 additional cards."
That's a Doppelganger, WoE style. :)
I had a similar idea with some other skill, where you could switch decks with your opponent every other turn (or something like that). While deck copying would be pretty cool, the problem is that not everyone has all the cards or money to buy them. This would only lead to many players not being able to play the deck they are given because they don't have those cards on their Elements account. This would be bad because it would give the advantage to rich players, and there is no way around that.
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My beef with the current Evasion is that it automatically evades Aggressive Charge. But what if I'm fortified and want my opponent to attack? Difficult to fix though.
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How about adding a second line to the skill description: "Fortifying cancels this skill." It would make sense, I mean, when you just prepared yourself for battle why flee from it?
Does being Fortified automatically mean that you want to fight? I don't think so. Maybe there is a situation where you want to Evade one player, and be Fortified against someone else. If we did what you suggest, it would not be possible.
Then again.. what you suggest makes perfect sense thematically. Hm.. yea we might change it to that actually.
Thoughts and questions:
Tier 1:
Dimensional Walk - As Dict already mentioned, the wording's not very clear whether it needs to be in a straight line. Other then that, and assuming we will add terrain effects at some point, this skill is good.
Outworlder - Kind of loses it's usefulness the higher level you get, but it's only a t1, so while it's a good candidate to be replaced if we come up with something, it's also not a problem if we leave it as-is.
Bane of Time - The buff is appreciated. Looks good. Now Revenge is even more in need of a buff, but we can get to that later.
Mirror Image - This one is fairly awesome, just for adding a good bit of flexibility in the early game. The added flexibility in deckbuilding is almost OP for a t1, if we had something to replace it I'd consider moving it to the doppelganger spot.
Duplication - The theme is good, but ofc it needs to be balanced vs all the other electrum/card earning methods. Basically, I think we need to first figure out how much a typical "work" action will give, and then we can evaluate skills like crafting and this one to see how they compare. Duplicate has the significant advantage of being able to add cards without being in one of the specific cities that sell those cards. It synergizes very well with Ethereal Bond, allowing you to recover from a loss even more quickly, because you can recreate lost cards without visiting a merchant. Assuming a "typical" work action can generate a little over 1 average card cost in income, then I'd suggest we should make this at least a 3AP action (to prevent double usage) and then call it balanced.
Tier 2:
Evasion - I like the new version. looks good. Dict's suggestion about it not applying if you fortify seems like a good one.
Ethereal Bond - I like this skill. seems balanced and useful. The requirement to "use" the skill is a little confusing, since we don't normally think of using AP in the spirit world, so I would either:
1. Change it to something like "You may resurrect in the same hex you were defeated in, instead of your capital."
2. Note somewhere that AP can be spent in the spirit world. Random thought: In that case we might even consider also just making resurrecting a 4AP action, so that rather than having no actions for a turn, you are delayed in the spirit world by the fact that resurrecting takes your actions for that turn. That might make skills like Dimensional Travel or Chosen One more intuitive.
Energy Barrier - A fun skill, and very powerful in a siege environment. Looks good.
Doppelganger - The "Gain X copies of Y card upped during battle" abilities are not my favorites, but their balanced fine, so we could just leave them alone unless someone comes up with a better idea.
Tier 3:
Phantom Form - Interesting. Moving MORE due to battle seems kinda random though.
Energy Strike - I'm not a huge fan of skills that force other players to discard cards as their main effect. For one, the effect becomes less and less potent as the game progresses, because forcing a player to discard their 3 least useful cards won't matter unless the target is so poor that they can't spare anything. Secondly, it doesn't have much benefit to the user of the skill. What would the player be trying to accomplish by using this ability? I suppose it could work as a way to drive off unwanted players that for some reason you don't want to battle and are confident they won't just attack you, but that's too limited an appeal for a t3. That's my opinion at least.
What if we gave it a "lobotomizing" effect? Something that stops a target player from using a designated t3 or lower skill for x turns? possibly keep the discarding effect too, or perhaps not, but either way it would be a more useful ability to it's owner. Thoughts?
Tier 4:
Dimensional Travel - Presumably this allows you to resurrect instantly (possibly at the cost of a move action), and also to move to the spirit world without having to lose a duel (useful for avoiding other players). Should we word the ethereal bond power so that you can return to the Normal world in the same place you left? Or would using this ability to move to the spirit world mean you return to your capital? Either one works, just need to clarify. This is a good capstone power.
EDIT: oh now it's changed to a summoning power I see. A cool idea certainly. Only one dimensional horror per champion or total on the map? How long does the NPC last? Of course, the big question is what sort of stats does the horror possess? I'll try to think of some suggestion for the horror's stats.
Doppelganger will be changed, just like all the other similar skills. They basically were just placeholders in the first place.
I changed Energy Strike closer to what it was originally (Debilitate). The problem I had with that skill was that instead of giving any direct benefit to the player who has it, it gave a debuff to the the losing player. This is kind of lame because when I beat someone in WoE, it won't give me much satisfaction to know that the person cannot use skills AFTER the battle. Sure it helps the element as a whole by making enemies weaker, but I think all skills should have a direct benefit to the player who has them, otherwise players don't want to take those skills. I think that the current Debilitating Beam is a step to the right direction.
For Dimensional Gate, I was thinking that we would have 13 Dimensional Horrors, one for each element and one BIG one. Each Horror would have their own unique and secret deck with lots of upped cards. Player using the skill would then randomly summon one on these Horrors.
Horrors would have 2 Action Points per turn, and you could basically use them as a regular character, only they couldn't enter Cities or Towns.
Horrors would disappear only when beaten in PvP or when their controller dies. Player could then summon a new Horror.
Something like that.
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I changed Energy Strike closer to what it was originally (Debilitate). The problem I had with that skill was that instead of giving any direct benefit to the player who has it, it gave a debuff to the the losing player. This is kind of lame because when I beat someone in WoE, it won't give me much satisfaction to know that the person cannot use skills AFTER the battle. Sure it helps the element as a whole by making enemies weaker, but I think all skills should have a direct benefit to the player who has them, otherwise players don't want to take those skills. I think that the current Debilitating Beam is a step to the right direction.
A definite improvement. I very much agree with the idea that skills should have a direct benefit to the player. As for Debilitating Beam, I suggest it be changed so that instead of affecting all t1 and t2 skills, it would target a single chosen skill up to t3. I know you've been following some general rule that counters should be higher tier than what they are countering, but I think if a player is going to devote a t3 skill to nothing but temporarily countering, it should be able to counter other t3 skills. I think that would be much more appealing.
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My thoughts on changed skills:
Evasion: Make it 'turn off' when you fortify, like was suggested and I think we are at a good spot. Question: If I aggressive charge a person with evasion, do I move and not attack, or does my movement AND attack fail?
Energy Barrier: Consuming a relic seems a bit high for what it does. You have to preemptively use it, assuming your town will be seiged... and if it is not, you are out a relic and 2 AP. I think this all depends on my understanding of relics. aside!
Relics!! Here is my understanding of these little guys. They cost about 1/4 of a card and can buy them in any (?) city. You can carry 5 items total, these count within that # and do not stack. They are used for abilities and nothing else. Is that about right?
So.... if you are in a city defending it, I guess it is not that bad to use a relic... and after 4 days of defending, buy a whole bunch more. If these assumptions are correct, then... yea, it's good now. One person blocks two people's siege.
Random suggestion as I write this! We should have an ability or town improvement, etc, that allows when seiging a town to cut off their source of cards or relics. A blockade ability. This way the town you are hitting can't use the above ability to, you know, stay behind a forever powerful wall.
Debilitating Beam: Much better. I like YoungSot's suggestion to also targeting a T3 ability. Or, it could also disable all T1, T2, including passives. That could be fun, would lead to some good counter play against strong passives, and allow you to attack while they are 'disabled' and gain an advantage from people who gain upped cards with skills! I find the 1 day too short as is, but that leads to another Question: Skills like this one and caltrops, does the de-buff happen to the opponent's next turn or current turn? Example: I use DB on YoungSot on day 15. Does that cancel any of his Day 15 T1 and T2 planned actions or does it disallow him from using them on Day 16?
Champion of Aether: Very smooth. Super fun. I'm assuming you can re-summon until you get the Horror you want? (some fun RNG here in play.) Do you duel with your guy's deck or do the NPC guys? Is it randomized each duel or when the lil' guy spawns? What if players use discarding abilities on the lil' guy? is he immune or does he die when he hits <30 cards?
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I changed Energy Strike closer to what it was originally (Debilitate). The problem I had with that skill was that instead of giving any direct benefit to the player who has it, it gave a debuff to the the losing player. This is kind of lame because when I beat someone in WoE, it won't give me much satisfaction to know that the person cannot use skills AFTER the battle. Sure it helps the element as a whole by making enemies weaker, but I think all skills should have a direct benefit to the player who has them, otherwise players don't want to take those skills. I think that the current Debilitating Beam is a step to the right direction.
A definite improvement. I very much agree with the idea that skills should have a direct benefit to the player. As for Debilitating Beam, I suggest it be changed so that instead of affecting all t1 and t2 skills, it would target a single chosen skill up to t3. I know you've been following some general rule that counters should be higher tier than what they are countering, but I think if a player is going to devote a t3 skill to nothing but temporarily countering, it should be able to counter other t3 skills. I think that would be much more appealing.
If it targets only one skill, then it makes sense that it affects tier 3 as well, because if you use a tier 3 skill to cancel tier 3 skill of your opponent, it's even and nobody gets an advantage. What I talked about is a situation where my skill cancels your skill plus I get some benefit, for example you having a skill that makes Fortify as your default stance and me having a skill that ignores Fortify.
And now that I read the rest of your post, you said pretty much the same thing.
Problem with your suggestion though is the fact that you don't always know what skills your opponent has, making the choosing process impossible. I'm not all that convinced that tier 1-2 is a problem, but I was wondering if it should have area effect. We could call it.. Debilitating Visage or whatever and make the mechanic something like this:
Consume a Relic to to start Debilitating Visage in target hex. All players in that hex cannot use any Tier 1 or Tier 2 active skills. Lasts 3 Days.
I don't know..
My thoughts on changed skills:
Evasion: Make it 'turn off' when you fortify, like was suggested and I think we are at a good spot. Question: If I aggressive charge a person with evasion, do I move and not attack, or does my movement AND attack fail?
Energy Barrier: Consuming a relic seems a bit high for what it does. You have to preemptively use it, assuming your town will be seiged... and if it is not, you are out a relic and 2 AP. I think this all depends on my understanding of relics. aside!
Relics!! Here is my understanding of these little guys. They cost about 1/4 of a card and can buy them in any (?) city. You can carry 5 items total, these count within that # and do not stack. They are used for abilities and nothing else. Is that about right?
So.... if you are in a city defending it, I guess it is not that bad to use a relic... and after 4 days of defending, buy a whole bunch more. If these assumptions are correct, then... yea, it's good now. One person blocks two people's siege.
Random suggestion as I write this! We should have an ability or town improvement, etc, that allows when seiging a town to cut off their source of cards or relics. A blockade ability. This way the town you are hitting can't use the above ability to, you know, stay behind a forever powerful wall.
Debilitating Beam: Much better. I like YoungSot's suggestion to also targeting a T3 ability. Or, it could also disable all T1, T2, including passives. That could be fun, would lead to some good counter play against strong passives, and allow you to attack while they are 'disabled' and gain an advantage from people who gain upped cards with skills! I find the 1 day too short as is, but that leads to another Question: Skills like this one and caltrops, does the de-buff happen to the opponent's next turn or current turn? Example: I use DB on YoungSot on day 15. Does that cancel any of his Day 15 T1 and T2 planned actions or does it disallow him from using them on Day 16?
Champion of Aether: Very smooth. Super fun. I'm assuming you can re-summon until you get the Horror you want? (some fun RNG here in play.) Do you duel with your guy's deck or do the NPC guys? Is it randomized each duel or when the lil' guy spawns? What if players use discarding abilities on the lil' guy? is he immune or does he die when he hits <30 cards?
You would still move but miss your target at the last minute (when in the same hex).
I agree about the Energy Barrier. I buffed it a bit by removing the Relic requirement, but it might still need some work. I'm a bit worried about 2-3 players camping and making a City/Town indestructible.
Yes, that is a pretty accurate description of Relics are, although there might be use quest use for them as well.
Blockade. I like it. Maybe we can manage to add it somewhere.
All debuffs happen during the next Day. It has to be like that for organizing reasons.
I think the player should do the duel of his or her Horror. Deck is randomized when the Horror is summoned. This naturally means that the more the Horror runs around attacking stuff, the easier it is to beat, which makes sense. About discarding abilities.. I think Dimensional Horrors should be immune to that.
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Problem with your suggestion though is the fact that you don't always know what skills your opponent has, making the choosing process impossible. I'm not all that convinced that tier 1-2 is a problem, but I was wondering if it should have area effect. We could call it.. Debilitating Visage or whatever and make the mechanic something like this:
Consume a Relic to to start Debilitating Visage in target hex. All players in that hex cannot use any Tier 1 or Tier 2 active skills. Lasts 3 Days.
I don't know..
Yes, the potential for wasted actions weakens the power somewhat, but I think it's main use is when you DO suspect/know of a particular player's skill, and you consider that skill to be very dangerous to you or your teammate's goals. That's when you would use the power. If they don't have the skill, then fine. If they did have it, you're glad you neutralized it. But it might still need a minor buff, so perhaps change the duration to last 2 or 3 days instead of 1, so that you would have more time to take advantage of your target's temporary weakness.
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Changing Debilitating Beam to Debilitating Visage is almost a cosmetic change at least; instead of affecting a player, you target a hex instead (with the exception that it doesn't affect ally/non-Aether players). Personally, I think that if it's made to target a single player that would affect them for MULTIPLE days (say, 3-4), it would become powerful in its own right, but not the end of the world, especially as it requires a relic (and possibly more AP to use).
Most of the Aether abilities (based on what I see now) are perfect in my opinion, with the exception of Static Charge (which I'm guessing is what's replacing Doppelganger at the moment). Seeing as we're trying to move away from the generic 'get 6 ups of this card!' type of skills, I also came up with a few skills that might follow the electrical theme (if not the energy concept):
Chain Lightning (2 AP):
All players in target adjacent hex must discard 1 card; players who are locked in battle must immediately discard 3 cards.
Lightning Rod (can be called 'conduction'):
When you are locked in battle, you may use two additional upgraded cards for every non-ally player in an adjacent or the same hex (no limit).
Fusion Power:
Whenever your element successfully completes an improvement, double the amount of cards salvaged from battles and electrum from Working for the next 3 days.
Just a small clarification; if you still lose the battle while having Phantom Form, you don't get to move where your Phantom is, correct? And does it 'stack' with Ethereal Bond? (I.e. - you move around to a different hex with Phantom Form, then upon death, ressurect at the location where your phantom is) Very unusual ability with some fun potential...
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Here's an idea that seems to fit Aether well and is useful for everyone all the time (and fits with the Energy Shaper thingie):
2AP: Fractal Aetheric Power: Target one card you control. In your next fight, you may play 6 of that card in your deck regardless of how many you possess.
That's flexible and strong without being too powerful, I think, and it kind of fits the idea of the 'Doppelganger' theme.
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2AP: Fractal Aetheric Power: Target one card you control. In your next fight, you may play 6 of that card in your deck regardless of how many you possess.
Thumbs up! I think this is a wonderfully simple and useful ability. Do it, do it! How discard will work with abilities like this, I have no idea, but we had that problem anyway!
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Simple; the user posts which card he has duplicated, and the person doing the discarding edits out all but one copy of that card from the decklist when they use the discarder tool thingy. Same thing they have to do with Doppelganger/Static Charge anyway, so it's not any more bother.
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Changing Debilitating Beam to Debilitating Visage is almost a cosmetic change at least; instead of affecting a player, you target a hex instead (with the exception that it doesn't affect ally/non-Aether players). Personally, I think that if it's made to target a single player that would affect them for MULTIPLE days (say, 3-4), it would become powerful in its own right, but not the end of the world, especially as it requires a relic (and possibly more AP to use).
Most of the Aether abilities (based on what I see now) are perfect in my opinion, with the exception of Static Charge (which I'm guessing is what's replacing Doppelganger at the moment). Seeing as we're trying to move away from the generic 'get 6 ups of this card!' type of skills, I also came up with a few skills that might follow the electrical theme (if not the energy concept):
Chain Lightning (2 AP):
All players in target adjacent hex must discard 1 card; players who are locked in battle must immediately discard 3 cards.
Lightning Rod (can be called 'conduction'):
When you are locked in battle, you may use two additional upgraded cards for every non-ally player in an adjacent or the same hex (no limit).
Fusion Power:
Whenever your element successfully completes an improvement, double the amount of cards salvaged from battles and electrum from Working for the next 3 days.
Just a small clarification; if you still lose the battle while having Phantom Form, you don't get to move where your Phantom is, correct? And does it 'stack' with Ethereal Bond? (I.e. - you move around to a different hex with Phantom Form, then upon death, ressurect at the location where your phantom is) Very unusual ability with some fun potential...
I changed it to Debilitating Visage for now. The reason I like AoE instead of single-target is that it's easy to just add the graphics of Debilitating visage, and all players will see that that particular hex is effected. This removes the need for the extra communication and the possibity of user error when players forget they have that hex or whatever. But we'll see, maybe I'll change it back.
I think Static Charge works actually. The reason why I disliked most of the previous "take X cards" skills was they they had cards that cost a specific quanta. But with cards like Supernova and Ball of Lighting, you are not restricted to that one element.
The idea of a Chain Lightning is pretty cool actually, but I think it should travel from one hex to the next hitting only players from one element. This way if your enemies form a line (or ball up) on the map, you could do some serious damage.
When compared to Pack Hunter, Lightning Rod would be pretty insane. There will probably be these big battles where players ball up, and a skill like that would be nuts because you would get that 10-20 upped cards. Theme-wise, if we had a skill like that, I think it would be cooler to use a "Wounded Tiger" or "Against the Odds" type of a theme, where the character gets an adrenaline spike when being surrounded or at a disadvantage.
Fusion Power.. yea something like that could work, but I'm not sure if :aether is the best element for it. I think an element like :gravity would fit better. I don't know..
I should start writing down these ideas somewhere.
Here's an idea that seems to fit Aether well and is useful for everyone all the time (and fits with the Energy Shaper thingie):
2AP: Fractal Aetheric Power: Target one card you control. In your next fight, you may play 6 of that card in your deck regardless of how many you possess.
That's flexible and strong without being too powerful, I think, and it kind of fits the idea of the 'Doppelganger' theme.
One issue with that skill is that if you meant it would create unupped cards, then it could become useless later in the game when you already have tons of cards. One basic design philosophy has been that all skills should be useful for the whole duration of the event, and wouldn't become obsolete after gaining some other skill or cards. If changed to upped cards.. it could maybe be OP, I don't know. I do like the concept though, and the flexibility.
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Well, how about if you sacrifice a relic when activating it, it produces upped cards instead of unupped ones?
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Well, how about if you sacrifice a relic when activating it, it produces upped cards instead of unupped ones?
I'd prefer if all skills either required a Relic, or didn't. Having two different effects kind of complicates things and might lead to errors. I wouldn't be against it if it made a lot of sense, but I feel that this would be just a cheap fix for a problem.
I also like the Ball of Lightning skill because it fits so perfectly for Energy Shaper theme. Maybe this Fractal Aetheric Power could be used in some other tree?
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I think Static Charge works actually. The reason why I disliked most of the previous "take X cards" skills was they they had cards that cost a specific quanta. But with cards like Supernova and Ball of Lighting, you are not restricted to that one element.
The idea of a Chain Lightning is pretty cool actually, but I think it should travel from one hex to the next hitting only players from one element. This way if your enemies form a line (or ball up) on the map, you could do some serious damage.
Fusion Power.. yea something like that could work, but I'm not sure if :aether is the best element for it. I think an element like :gravity would fit better. I don't know..
I wish you were on chat more often so we can flood the room with WoE spam. :P
In regards to Static Charge, I guess I understand the Supernova skill (because of the quanta issue), but the problem is, Supernova is MUCH stronger compared to Ball Lightning in my opinion. Either way, it seems that based on these decisions, we should probably just call the :aether tree 'finished' and move on to Air or something to finalize that.
Chain Lightning would actually be a fun idea for Air if you can hit multiple players from long distances... fits the whole 'I'm a ranger' type of ideal. But what to name it...
As for Fusion Power, you've already solved it - put it into the 'Devotion' tree instead. ^^