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Scaredgirl

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New types of skill trees? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32751.msg413771#msg413771
« on: October 21, 2011, 03:56:05 pm »
One thing I've always disliked about the skill trees is that players are at some point forced to take skills from other elements. It would make more sense to me if you could go "mono". Adding new skill trees would both fix that problem, and make skill design more interesting.

Here are a couple of ideas.


Devotion ("mono skill tree")
Gain access to this skill tree if you have spent at least 6 skill points in one skill tree, and no skill points in any of the other skill trees. Skills would revolve around mono mechanics and theme.

Prismatic ("rainbow skill tree")
Gain access to this skill tree if you have spent at least one skill point in 6 different skill trees. Skills would revolve around rainbow mechanics and theme.


Post feedback and your own ideas for new skill trees.

Offline Kuroaitou

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Re: New types of skill trees? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32751.msg413780#msg413780
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2011, 04:18:05 pm »
Hm... I thought about this, and I wondered if skill trees should actually be divided into 'play styles' (such as a 'quest' tree, battle-oriented tree, environmental-tempering tree, economics tree, etc.), but that would make certain element-skill combinations almost dominating in a certain playstyle, which isn't really fair.

That said, I like the idea of 'Devotion', but why not name them after actual ranks an elemental can be put up as? :)



Loyalist/Patriot
Only allowed for people who have spent points in their elemental tree only. Cannot be taken until level 10.

Skill Proficiency:
Removes the Relic requirement off all skills in your elemental tree. Reduces all non-movement based skills by 1 AP.

Call of Duty:
If you die within a hex of your Capital City, you may resurrect there immediately and generate a pillar of your element.


Elder
Only allowed for people who have spent points in their elemental tree AND no more than 2 skills from any 2 other elements. Cannot be taken until level 9. (Think of a mono elemental with a splash of two skills from two other elements, a wannabe trio)


Half-Blood/???
Only allowed for people who have spent points in two elemental trees only. Cannot be taken until level 8.


Conspirator/Treasonist
Only allowed for people who have spent points in their elemental tree and the OPPOSITE elemental tree. Cannot be taken until level 7.

Double Cross:
You cannot lose reputation in either opposing element when winning or losing against a player of that element.


Hybrid
Only allowed for people who have spent points in three-four elemental trees only. Cannot be taken until level 6.

Ring Master:
Defeating the opponent with at least


Spectre (Spectrum -> Rainbow)
Only allowed for people who have spent points five or more different elemental trees only. Cannot be taken until level 5.




Will post more in a second.



Offline YoungSot

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Re: New types of skill trees? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32751.msg413781#msg413781
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2011, 04:19:46 pm »
Sweet. When it comes to Skill trees, the more options the merrier!

Offline the dictator

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Re: New types of skill trees? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32751.msg413789#msg413789
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2011, 04:32:17 pm »
Hmm, I feel we need to have some kind of middle way as Kuro suggested, something to boost duo/trio, decks/builds.
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Scaredgirl

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Re: New types of skill trees? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32751.msg413829#msg413829
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2011, 06:40:44 pm »
Hm... I thought about this, and I wondered if skill trees should actually be divided into 'play styles' (such as a 'quest' tree, battle-oriented tree, environmental-tempering tree, economics tree, etc.), but that would make certain element-skill combinations almost dominating in a certain playstyle, which isn't really fair.

That said, I like the idea of 'Devotion', but why not name them after actual ranks an elemental can be put up as? :)



Loyalist/Patriot
Only allowed for people who have spent points in their elemental tree only. Cannot be taken until level 10.

Skill Proficiency:
Removes the Relic requirement off all skills in your elemental tree. Reduces all non-movement based skills by 1 AP.

Call of Duty:
If you die within a hex of your Capital City, you may resurrect there immediately and generate a pillar of your element.


Elder
Only allowed for people who have spent points in their elemental tree AND no more than 2 skills from any 2 other elements. Cannot be taken until level 9. (Think of a mono elemental with a splash of two skills from two other elements, a wannabe trio)


Half-Blood/???
Only allowed for people who have spent points in two elemental trees only. Cannot be taken until level 8.


Conspirator/Treasonist
Only allowed for people who have spent points in their elemental tree and the OPPOSITE elemental tree. Cannot be taken until level 7.

Double Cross:
You cannot lose reputation in either opposing element when winning or losing against a player of that element.


Hybrid
Only allowed for people who have spent points in three-four elemental trees only. Cannot be taken until level 6.

Ring Master:
Defeating the opponent with at least


Spectre (Spectrum -> Rainbow)
Only allowed for people who have spent points five or more different elemental trees only. Cannot be taken until level 5.




Will post more in a second.
Hmm, I feel we need to have some kind of middle way as Kuro suggested, something to boost duo/trio, decks/builds.
First of all, I think we should stay calm and not start adding tons of new skill trees. :) I think that 2-3 would be good, because even that is 24-36 new skills which is a lot.

The basic idea I had was that these bonus skill trees would be given to players who somehow specialize in something, for example taking skills from only one tree. If we give duo/trio players access to new skill trees as well, I think it kind of defeats the whole purpose. I don't think we should have a bonus skill tree for everyone.

Conspirator/Treasonist is something I considered myself, and it would probably be the 3rd one I would add if I had to, although I would probably change it to 6 skill points in both elements.

I was also thinking that maybe we don't need full trees for these. Maybe we could have only one path per special tree, in other words, 7 skills in 3 tiers. This would help us include more bonus skill trees.

I'll now update the first post a bit. Thanks for the ideas.

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Re: New types of skill trees? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32751.msg413866#msg413866
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2011, 07:55:53 pm »
Quote
I was also thinking that maybe we don't need full trees for these. Maybe we could have only one path per special tree, in other words, 7 skills in 3 tiers. This would help us include more bonus skill trees.
Yeah, this was part of my original suggestion/idea - the smallest bonus trees might just be a small group of 3 skills, while some skills are oneshots that are a middle ground between main elemental skills and bonus skills.

Guilds - Minor Skill trees, smaller than the main ones (smallest ones can be 1-3 skills, largest probably have 5 skills in a straight line) - these trees will open up for point spending after you complete some of the respective guild's quests. Some guilds favor certain elements, shown by their skills.
Some guild ideas:

Warriors of the Core - Based on the Material ( :fire :water :air :earth ) elements.
-Elemental Tempest - If your deck contains exactly 3 to 5 elements, you may use 2 additional upgrades for one Material Element and the Element of your mark.

Astrologeans Based on the Cardinal ( :aether :time :entropy :gravity ) elements.
-Starshift - You may temporarily convert 12 of your Aether cards to 12 non-Cardinal Element cards for this battle. Recharges for 2 days after use.

Nameless Beliefs Based on the Spiritual ( :life :light :death :darkness) elements.
-Morality Judge - Increases the the amount of upgraded cards you may use against an opponent if your element is more hostile towards them.

The Elemental's Guild Based on negating or countering higher level skills, while still allowing the use of weaker ones.
-Nihilism - All Tier 3 skills are negated for this battle. You must use 2 less upgrades this battle.


Oneshots - Skills that you can take as an early alternative to an element specific skill or utility skills that can come in handy in some situations. Can also represent skills gained through quests, magical items, and potential allies in your Elemental army.

-Cobbler - You build Roads 25% faster. Does not stack with superior roadbuilding skills.
-Recycle - Convert a Relic into a Common Other card.
-Forester's Bow - If attacked while Fortified, use up to 6 more :air or :life cards.
-Useless Sidekick - Distracts some of your enemy's soldiers. Your opponent can use 3 less upgrades on creatures against you.

Offline ak65ala

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Re: New types of skill trees? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32751.msg413954#msg413954
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2011, 11:45:25 pm »
I like solid mechanics and design simplicity.  Here are my thoughts on the skills trees thus far:

When we had marks as tier 0 there were 13 points nececcary to invest into a tree to gain mastery.  You gained 2 skills at level 1 then 1 for each level up to 24 (max level), gaining a total of 25 skillpoints.  This made a lot of sense, both giving a player flexability in choices of skills and hindering them from gaining two masteries (the time tier 3 skill "Scholar" messed everything up.... but, yea). 

Now we have marks opening up every 3 levels (presumably lvl 4,7,11....22) giving 8 marks.  I find this a much better marriage of the mark in Elements and a skill system.

As a result to this change, I'll assume we now have 24 skills (1 for each level) to spend.  The most we can spend in our tree is only half of our points... Now, the idea of giving a skilltree for monos or rainbows, as it stands, seems odd.  To me the mono tree would feel like the underworld tree, just a generic tree in which has no real elemental affiliation.  I wouldn't feel like I am a mono element if half of my points are in another tree.  This mono tree would also have to be attractive enough to make players take it, leading to less path choices due to this crafted imbalance. 

Here is what I am thinking.  We either need to:
  • Lower the level cap (20 works) so that putting yourself as a mono promotes a larger majority of your skills into your tree.  12 in yours, a tree of 8 for being a mono.
  • Move around the numbers for skills and level to make it 'feel' good.  i.e. If the cap stays at 24, add a few skills to each tree, say 17 for each (add another T3 path... then make them get all 3 paths to get the mastery), setting up the mastery to carry more of an opportunity cost, and set up a mono tree with 7.
  • Give "point sinks" into each tree after you are a master and you can only take if you stay only within your tree. Say for life "each point gives you one more salvage for a win" or death "each point decreases your opponent's upgraded cards they can use by 1" so being a mono makes you have less flexability, but a stronger focus to your element's porpose.  Say, making the T3 abilities be the sink even, so their are two choices.  Life could be for shaman "lower the cooldown of placing a forest by 1, increase upped cards used in battle if on a forest hex by 1" and for predator "increase the salvage for an EM by 1 per EM in a battle".  Death would have for lich "increase the life your opponent "dies at" by 2" Skills would need to be adjusted and built to make this work.
Maybe their are other options, maybe there are better solutions.  We most of all need to keep it simple to understand.  I feel adding more trees and more restrictions to trees and more... might not be what we need.  I do agree not being able to be mono is, something intresting to look into.

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Re: New types of skill trees? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32751.msg414603#msg414603
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2011, 03:54:00 am »
Quote
I was also thinking that maybe we don't need full trees for these. Maybe we could have only one path per special tree, in other words, 7 skills in 3 tiers. This would help us include more bonus skill trees.
Yeah, this was part of my original suggestion/idea - the smallest bonus trees might just be a small group of 3 skills, while some skills are oneshots that are a middle ground between main elemental skills and bonus skills.

Guilds - Minor Skill trees, smaller than the main ones (smallest ones can be 1-3 skills, largest probably have 5 skills in a straight line) - these trees will open up for point spending after you complete some of the respective guild's quests. Some guilds favor certain elements, shown by their skills.
Some guild ideas:

Warriors of the Core - Based on the Material ( :fire :water :air :earth ) elements.
-Elemental Tempest - If your deck contains exactly 3 to 5 elements, you may use 2 additional upgrades for one Material Element and the Element of your mark.

Astrologeans Based on the Cardinal ( :aether :time :entropy :gravity ) elements.
-Starshift - You may temporarily convert 12 of your Aether cards to 12 non-Cardinal Element cards for this battle. Recharges for 2 days after use.

Nameless Beliefs Based on the Spiritual ( :life :light :death :darkness) elements.
-Morality Judge - Increases the the amount of upgraded cards you may use against an opponent if your element is more hostile towards them.

The Elemental's Guild Based on negating or countering higher level skills, while still allowing the use of weaker ones.
-Nihilism - All Tier 3 skills are negated for this battle. You must use 2 less upgrades this battle.


Oneshots - Skills that you can take as an early alternative to an element specific skill or utility skills that can come in handy in some situations. Can also represent skills gained through quests, magical items, and potential allies in your Elemental army.

-Cobbler - You build Roads 25% faster. Does not stack with superior roadbuilding skills.
-Recycle - Convert a Relic into a Common Other card.
-Forester's Bow - If attacked while Fortified, use up to 6 more :air or :life cards.
-Useless Sidekick - Distracts some of your enemy's soldiers. Your opponent can use 3 less upgrades on creatures against you.
There's some good stuff there. Thanks.

It's 7am here so I'm a total zombie right now without the ability to give any good replies. I'll do that later though. :)

Offline ak65ala

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Re: New types of skill trees? http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32751.msg415288#msg415288
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2011, 08:14:58 pm »
Here are my revised thoughts on making sure you can mono in a tree if you so desire.  This will most likely be brushed aside, since it seems we are going in a different direction, but I wanted to get my ideas here for discussion. 

Update the level cap to 25 (nice round number)
Make it so you can't get 2 master talents (too imbalanced if you get the 'right' combination)
Update the trees slightly to what I have shown below.


It takes 13 points to get to mastery of a tree.  This will allow "most" builds unable to gain 2 masteries organically.  Only problem is the scholar talent, and if you state you can't get 2 master talents, we're good. The T1, T2, T3, M (master) talents are as we have them now.  The P is a new talent for each tree called "Potency against **.  It gives you a bonus for beating your opposite, like "Bane of **" does now.  My thought is "increase their discard by 2, your salvage by 2 on a win".  Many other options available.  This added talent is to both increase the 'feel' of the "bane of **" skill within the tree (seems like a loner and needs a friend) and also to make 2 master builds not work 'normally'.

The star talents above would be for people who become a master of the element.  Each will have 6 levels, we can have them improve one branch of the tree.  As you can tell, if you mono, you take 13 points to become the master and have 12 points left.  There are 18 points needed to fill up these extras.  This way there are choices for each mono and no two builds should be the same.  You can go 6 in two talents or a combination.  You can lock people out of these extras if they go into another tree, or let them have them still for becoming a master of the element.  Adds a feeling of being better than everyone else at what you do.

For examples, I'll take the life tree, since I know that one best.

The shaman side master talents could be:
  • Cooldown of Breath of Life is now 5 days
  • You can use 8 upgraded cards if you battle on a forest hex
  • Nature rituals now costs only 1 action point but only usable twice per day
  • You can use 4 elite cockatrice during any battle, they disappear after duel ends.
  • Cooldown of Breath of Life is now 4 days and doesn't cost a relic.
  • If you use animal form, you can charge for free this round.
For Predator they could be:
  • Scouting is now free but only usable once a day.
  • Setting a lotus trap is now free but only usable once a day.
  • When you breed 2 of the same creatures, you get a third for free.
  • Pack hunter's bonus for you is now 3 upgraded cards per ally.
  • If you EM your opponent in any duel, you do not die if you lose
  • You may now have 2 lotus traps active at any time.
For the center talents, they could be the same for each element, focused on killing your opposite.
  • Gain 4xp for beating a *** in battle
  • When facing a wanted *** elementalist you gain 6 upgrades.
  • Your opponents cannot use a *** mark against you. (Unless they have no other option)
  • Your aggressive charge against a *** elementalist moves you three spaces towards them.
  • Your siege against *** towns is twice as effective.
  • You may name one *** card before a duel, your opponent may not use that card.
It might be a daunting effort to create unique and wanted abilities for all of the trees, so this might be too big of an effort, but since we are assuming they only go to masters of each element and if we make them only for mono people, they can be strong so that they are attractive.  We are also only increasing the strength of already earned abilities, like upgrading a card increases its effectiveness, so finding ways to make them work shouldn't be too mind-wrenching.

 

anything
blarg: