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Keep characters between events? [POLL] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33092.msg417457#msg417457
« on: October 29, 2011, 04:35:48 pm »
Plan with WoE from the day one has been to follow the MMORPG formula and to let players slowly level up and not lose their characters. I was just thinking about an alternative way of doing things, and we need to decide this now before we can move forward.



OPTION 1 (current plan)
Players get to keep their characters and will start each new WoE with that same character.

Pros:
+ progress is not lost
+ players are more attached to their charaters

Cons:
- leveling will be slow
- the gap between veterans and new players increases all the time, to the point that new players will be destroyed in every single battle


OPTION 2 (alternative plan)
Players have to make a new character for each new WoE.

Pros:
+ we can increase the XP gain dramatically, giving players faster access to higher level skills
+ it's easier to update Character Sheets and other stuff without having to transfer all the old data

Cons:
- characters are deleted after the event
- resetting characters might have some storyline issues



I personally think that both options would work well and I don't have a strong feeling to one way or another. As a player, I would probably like Option 2 more because it lets me access high level skills without months of grinding, and I don't really mind starting a new character.

So yeah.. lets have a poll and see what everyone thinks.

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Re: Keep characters between events? [POLL] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33092.msg417458#msg417458
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2011, 04:41:11 pm »
I think I'd be okay with this as long as the XP gain was made faster each time.  But if this isn't going to happen past the first reset then I'd say I'd rather leave the characters as is.
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Re: Keep characters between events? [POLL] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33092.msg417459#msg417459
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2011, 04:42:19 pm »
I would mind having to start a new character alot.

I love statistics and I want to keep my PvP win%, my cards, my quests, everything. Most of all I want to keep my Skills though. Having to start a new character every WoE would become very demotivating.

As I see it, this event stands or falls by the presence of it's active, participating, veteran members. Giving them a character they can finetune, develop and keep through the WoE story is a key part of the entire experience imo.

Let's find another way to prevent new players from getting slaughtered. (like no exp gain/salvage for a player 5+ levels lower then you and maybe even exp loss if you lsoe vs a player 5+ levels lower) Anything but deleting the characters :(

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Re: Keep characters between events? [POLL] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33092.msg417460#msg417460
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2011, 04:42:54 pm »
I would prefer option 2, most likely, the slow pace of getting skills and leveling with the current system is really very slow, and thus, unfun.

I'd like to know what precisely is meant by "New WoE," though. Is it each time we make a new version of beta, each time someone wins, every couple months, or something else entirely?
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Re: Keep characters between events? [POLL] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33092.msg417471#msg417471
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2011, 05:18:07 pm »
I would mind having to start a new character alot.

I love statistics and I want to keep my PvP win%, my cards, my quests, everything. Most of all I want to keep my Skills though. Having to start a new character every WoE would become very demotivating.

As I see it, this event stands or falls by the presence of it's active, participating, veteran members. Giving them a character they can finetune, develop and keep through the WoE story is a key part of the entire experience imo.

Let's find another way to prevent new players from getting slaughtered. (like no exp gain/salvage for a player 5+ levels lower then you and maybe even exp loss if you lsoe vs a player 5+ levels lower) Anything but deleting the characters :(
I would second this. I much prefer keeping my character from game to game, as it is that steady progress toward the "perfect" character that really motivates and interests me. I think the new player's disadvantage should be mitigated in some way though. The existence of copious questing opportunities plus something like Jappert is suggesting to remove rewards for newb stomping, would probably be enough.

As for the speed of progress, once we have something in place to discourage the most powerful players from picking on new players too much, the pace of leveling can be whatever rate the community and SG deems most enjoyable, without affecting the game balance much.

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Re: Keep characters between events? [POLL] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33092.msg417475#msg417475
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2011, 05:35:03 pm »
I also see WoE as a storyline, not as a one-time event. I feel like resetting my character would be like playing an RPG and having you character reset after the first chapter/dungeon/whatever.

There are plenty ways to help new players, even very drastic ones like not being able to charge lower level (-5) players etc.

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Re: Keep characters between events? [POLL] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33092.msg417487#msg417487
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2011, 05:50:04 pm »
I'm with Terroking.  The idea of a WoE that is a long, slow affair with a continuous storyline has a vague appeal, but honestly, I'm a tinkerer. I'd rather play 3 different builds in a year (and have to start over 3 times to do so) than play 1 build during that same year, particularly if that build never reached the same power level as the three different builds.

Also, starting over from time to time benefits the new people. Veterans have enough uberity on these boards; the last thing we want is one more arena in which the Old Boy's Club runs things and the newbies are forever struggling to catch up.
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Re: Keep characters between events? [POLL] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33092.msg417517#msg417517
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2011, 07:22:56 pm »
I love getting the perfect character.
But I /hate/ games that make you play catch up. I've played games where if you didn't start the first day or two, you'll never be able to be the top player.

Either extreme restrictions on what carried over players can do to new ones or new each game. Possibly people who played the previous one get a slight bonus for each previous one they played could be added too.
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Re: Keep characters between events? [POLL] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33092.msg417524#msg417524
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2011, 07:34:50 pm »
I think I'd be okay with this as long as the XP gain was made faster each time.  But if this isn't going to happen past the first reset then I'd say I'd rather leave the characters as is.
The progress would be the same in each new event. Idea would be to run WoE for roughly 100 Days (3-4 months in real life), and it would end shortly after most successful players reach max level.


I would mind having to start a new character alot.

I love statistics and I want to keep my PvP win%, my cards, my quests, everything. Most of all I want to keep my Skills though. Having to start a new character every WoE would become very demotivating.

As I see it, this event stands or falls by the presence of it's active, participating, veteran members. Giving them a character they can finetune, develop and keep through the WoE story is a key part of the entire experience imo.

Let's find another way to prevent new players from getting slaughtered. (like no exp gain/salvage for a player 5+ levels lower then you and maybe even exp loss if you lsoe vs a player 5+ levels lower) Anything but deleting the characters :(
If we had XP loss when you attack lower level players, that would lead to silly situations where one half the players would be high level veterans, and the second half would be "untouchable" newbies.


I would prefer option 2, most likely, the slow pace of getting skills and leveling with the current system is really very slow, and thus, unfun.

I'd like to know what precisely is meant by "New WoE," though. Is it each time we make a new version of beta, each time someone wins, every couple months, or something else entirely?
Like I said there earlier, idea would be that one WoE lasts roughly 100 Days, which translates to 3-4 months. When the event ends, characters would be reset, but the story would continue from where it ended. Thematically, this could mean that all the players die of old age or get someone wiped out of existence, and the next generation would continue the battle.


I much prefer keeping my character from game to game, as it is that steady progress toward the "perfect" character that really motivates and interests me. I think the new player's disadvantage should be mitigated in some way though. The existence of copious questing opportunities plus something like Jappert is suggesting to remove rewards for newb stomping, would probably be enough.

As for the speed of progress, once we have something in place to discourage the most powerful players from picking on new players too much, the pace of leveling can be whatever rate the community and SG deems most enjoyable, without affecting the game balance much.
Don't you see it as a problem if the gap between new players and veterans becomes too big?


I'm with Terroking.  The idea of a WoE that is a long, slow affair with a continuous storyline has a vague appeal, but honestly, I'm a tinkerer. I'd rather play 3 different builds in a year (and have to start over 3 times to do so) than play 1 build during that same year, particularly if that build never reached the same power level as the three different builds.

Also, starting over from time to time benefits the new people. Veterans have enough uberity on these boards; the last thing we want is one more arena in which the Old Boy's Club runs things and the newbies are forever struggling to catch up.
Yep. I don't see it as that much different from playing an MMO and starting a new character once your main character hits max level. Sure you still have that main character and probably do some endgame stuff with it, but it's not like starting over is somehow boring and useless. I personally like trying out different builds and characters, and doing a fresh start in WoE would probably interest me.


I love getting the perfect character.
But I /hate/ games that make you play catch up. I've played games where if you didn't start the first day or two, you'll never be able to be the top player.

Either extreme restrictions on what carried over players can do to new ones or new each game. Possibly people who played the previous one get a slight bonus for each previous one they played could be added too.
Yep, this is probably the main argument for Option 2, and it's something I overlooked when I first started to build WoE.



The more I think about it, the more I like option 2. I was wondering if there was some kind of middle-ground for the two options..

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Re: Keep characters between events? [POLL] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33092.msg417530#msg417530
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2011, 07:48:44 pm »
Disclaimer: I am not a WoE player and thus do not understand all the details. However this alternative might be worth considering.

Option 3 (alternate plan)
Players get to keep their characters but will start each new WoE with some fraction of progress lost.

Pros:
+ some progress is not lost
+ players are moderately more attached to their characters
+ the gap between veterans and new players would be more logrithmic than linear

Cons:
- some progress is lost
- the gap between veterans and new players increases all the time, but would be slower than if all progress was maintained
- higher level players would be hit harder

Example with 50% level retention:
A 12th level (133xp) expert, 6th level (31xp) veteran and a New player (0xp) start as 6th level (31xp), 3rd level (7xp) and 1st level (0xp).

A variant that is less severe on high level players would be a constant level loss instead of a percentage level loss.
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Re: Keep characters between events? [POLL] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33092.msg417540#msg417540
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2011, 08:14:22 pm »
I'm for building a new char every new game.

For people hating to lose all their progress, I'd have a simple solution: give a reward for those that manage to get to level 21. A forum award "The 21 Club of WoE#xy" would be awesome.

It's should also be much more fun for veterans to start anew, giving them the chance to try different builds or even different elements. Being stuck with your char doesn't sound too apealing to me. Saving the overall stats for all players should be done though.
Also, I don't thing it'd be a good idea giving someone an advantage in the beginning of the game. Newbies wouldn't stand a chance against veterans which have already a few levels. It should IMO be enough of an advantage for the veterans that they already know the game and won't sit around the first 3 days figuring out how to move around.

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Re: Keep characters between events? [POLL] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33092.msg417542#msg417542
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2011, 08:28:30 pm »
Keeping cards and levels seems like it would be pretty tough on newbies, so I'd prefer Option 2. However, I think it would be fair to have some sort of progression that carries over. For example, Legacy skills that you do not get by spending skill points, but by completing achievements. These would have to be pretty hard to achieve though. For example,

Achievement: Hoarder - Fill every slot in your bank
Gives Skill: Legendary Greed - For every town your element has control of, gain 5 electrum per day.

 

anything
blarg: