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Offline ~Napalm

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Re: Activity Check https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32409.msg409691#msg409691
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2011, 05:36:59 pm »
Now I may be way off, but imo, WoE isn't really a "casual" event. I see at as War in a different form. I have seen no reasonable evidence to dispute that the purpose of WoE is to conquer the entire map. This is similar to War in the respect that in both events, you're utmost priority is a strong PvP record and being the last team standing. The only way to make this a more casual event, again imo, is to do away with this system. I'm not sure what a good way to go about this is though, or if this is even relevant to the topic at hand. I thought I'd get it out there though! ::)
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Offline EvaRia

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Re: Activity Check https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32409.msg409725#msg409725
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2011, 06:57:38 pm »
Hmm, I admit to being one of the inactives.

There are things that I think should be changed to make it IMO more RPGish...

The sheer fact that it's possible in the first place to fall behind means something went wrong.

IMO, it should be possible at any point to join in as a Level 1 and face no disadvantage other than the low level factor.
Inactivity also shouldn't be an issue, it should be possible to leave and come back and not suffer any real problems as well.

Basically, it should translate to "How strong you are depends on how much time you spend playing, not how much time everyone else spends playing."

The problem with this ideal is that WoE is largely PvP rather than PvE. This means that you run into problems if you can't beat the other players. So, I feel we either have to introduce some kind of PvE element into the game to help level up or a way to "Catch Up" to the other players.

Also, the problem is the way there's a definite goal to conquer the map set up. I find it simpler if there's a"Questline" you can complete, and then you can keep playing once you finish the quests. This means shifiting the goal from conquering the map as a team to getting stronger as an individual.


I dunno, just as it stands it doesn't feel RPGish to me. It focuses too much on PvP rather than the usual Quests-Monsters-XP-Gold-Equips that you find in most places. PvP is great and should stay of course, but I don't think it should be the central part of the game.

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Re: Activity Check https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32409.msg409776#msg409776
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2011, 08:17:23 pm »
If this is a team game, then inactive players should be kicked out asap, otherwise inactivity spreads like a disease, because active players lose hope, since their activity is in vain. And if this is a team game, then a commander is needed, who has some responsibility and who has to decides evidently what to do and what strategy to use.
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Offline ~Napalm

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Re: Activity Check https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32409.msg409778#msg409778
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2011, 08:19:08 pm »
As usual, Eva put it in far better words than I could. I feel like having the quests start REALLY early is important to make WoE more casual. This WoE was far too PvP focused because the majority of quests were being left out. Ultimately if you want to make WoE Testing successful, you have to START with everything rather than adding it all along the way. We'll be patient! ::)
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Re: Activity Check https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32409.msg409819#msg409819
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2011, 08:55:32 pm »
I like the idea of non-element based teams.  gives each player a lot more freedom.  however, it would be difficult to decide where people start at.  also might need to change the merchant and skills system...
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Re: Activity Check https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32409.msg409821#msg409821
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2011, 08:58:07 pm »
I like the idea of non-element based teams.  gives each player a lot more freedom.  however, it would be difficult to decide where people start at.  also might need to change the merchant and skills system...
Not really. Without elements, cities are either faction-neutral or players belong to a larger faction (maybe two sides which allow you to pick from 6 elements), letting you spawn all players in the same city or cities.

Having said that, I think keeping it closer to how it currently is, but making it more casual-player-friendly is the way to go.

Offline the dictator

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Re: Activity Check https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32409.msg409870#msg409870
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2011, 09:45:02 pm »
I totally agree with Eva (and with Ria too).

Also a system like:
"How strong you are depends on how much time you spend playing, not how much time everyone else spends playing."
A system like that would also make it easier to deal with inactivities: you should be able to put your character into sleep mode (or have it put into sleep mode after 3/5 days of inactivity) then each team can still have a maximum number of players, but that would represent the maximum number of active players: as soon as someone enters sleep mode, that comes a place for someone else, who then can join the team. That would mean that sleeping players can only 'wake up' when someone else goes asleep, which would also be the penalty to prevent abuse of the sleep mode.

I also strongly support the idea of making WoE more like an individual event, with the quests for a whole team as bonus, not the personal quests as a bonus.
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Re: Activity Check https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32409.msg409871#msg409871
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2011, 09:45:54 pm »
I kind of don't get it...  I get the inactive part though  :P

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Re: Activity Check https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32409.msg409883#msg409883
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2011, 10:00:54 pm »
As usual, Eva put it in far better words than I could. I feel like having the quests start REALLY early is important to make WoE more casual. This WoE was far too PvP focused because the majority of quests were being left out. Ultimately if you want to make WoE Testing successful, you have to START with everything rather than adding it all along the way. We'll be patient! ::)
Quote
I think the real solution involves getting you (SG) out of doing all the work. WoE is gonna run a long time, so in order for it to succeed it is vital that we get other people doing the work. The event should run on it's own, while you concentrate on thinking up ways to improve it and/or work on other projects. I know it takes you some time to teach others, but there's no way around it. If we do take a break, I think it should be to train WoE gamemasters.
^^ These.

Just my humble opinion, but it seems to me like WoE would benefit most from a reset (sorry, team :water , I know we were on top and it sucks to lose that, but it's true.) during which SG trains 2-3 WoE Organizers and someone develops a series of quests (or other non-combat ways to gain some early XP.)  I, for one, wanted to be an economic powerhouse and wasn't interested in getting into a bunch of fights, and the fact that the only quests that gave XP beyond Expand Borders all required combat was a real disappointment.

Now, as to the "casualness" of WoE, it's a pipe dream. WoE is a game, and the only way to advance in a game is to play it.  My suggestion for inactivity is simple: if you don't submit any actions, you automatically spend your turn taking a special action called Work For The Crown, creating 20 :electrum for your Element.  That way there's still a strong impetus to take your turn, but if you can't make it or you forget or something, you still have some minor benefit to your team.  Anyone who Works For The Crown for 3 turns in a row is hired by the crown as a professional administrator and is no longer a player in WoE.  Other than that, your inactivity is your responsibility and you have to deal with the lack of success it comes with.


Quote
The sheer fact that it's possible in the first place to fall behind means something went wrong.
COMMUNIST!

No, seriously though, that's a ridiculous statement to make in any game, whether it's World of Elements, chess, or rock paper scissors. At any given time, 50% of the people in WoE will be below average, and it makes perfect sense that people who can't be bothered to play are in that 50%.


Quote
Also, the problem is the way there's a definite goal to conquer the map set up. I find it simpler if there's a"Questline" you can complete, and then you can keep playing once you finish the quests. This means shifiting the goal from conquering the map as a team to getting stronger as an individual.
OK, two things.  One, conquering the map is impossible. There are scores too many other players to kill in one turn, and they all resurrect in different places on the map anyway and can easily neutralize and recap the hexes near their city before you can get to them, much less kill them again.  Conquering does exactly two things: it improves your income from Work, and it forces other people to neutralize hexes if they want to expand into your territory.  There isn't any more importance to it than that.  If you want to make it a conquering game, make it so that when you conquer a team's capital city, that entire team converts and joins yours.  That would make conquering everything (by absorbing all of the players into one team) a solid goal.

Two, quests shouldn't necessarily be set up in a 'line', but there should be minor quests you can do for XP, like "take this MacGuffin from here to the Outlaw City and bring me back a Greater MacGuffin and I'll give you 100 :electrum and 10 XP." Maybe a short 2-4 quest-long 'beginner's series' to familiarize new players with basic aspects of play, but other that that, stick with the stuff we talked about in Alpha.


Quote
I also strongly support the idea of making WoE more like an individual event, with the quests for a whole team as bonus, not the personal quests as a bonus.
I don't. I think the team should be the primary unit. Though I do think more quests that can be completed as individuals are warranted.


In terms of teams and everything, I honestly think they're OK provided we have 2-3 organizers. Separating the teams from the elements is a bad idea, it takes away too much of the essential flavor of WoE.
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Offline EvaRia

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Re: Activity Check https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32409.msg409918#msg409918
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2011, 10:52:39 pm »
As usual, Eva put it in far better words than I could. I feel like having the quests start REALLY early is important to make WoE more casual. This WoE was far too PvP focused because the majority of quests were being left out. Ultimately if you want to make WoE Testing successful, you have to START with everything rather than adding it all along the way. We'll be patient! ::)
Quote
I think the real solution involves getting you (SG) out of doing all the work. WoE is gonna run a long time, so in order for it to succeed it is vital that we get other people doing the work. The event should run on it's own, while you concentrate on thinking up ways to improve it and/or work on other projects. I know it takes you some time to teach others, but there's no way around it. If we do take a break, I think it should be to train WoE gamemasters.
^^ These.

Just my humble opinion, but it seems to me like WoE would benefit most from a reset (sorry, team :water , I know we were on top and it sucks to lose that, but it's true.) during which SG trains 2-3 WoE Organizers and someone develops a series of quests (or other non-combat ways to gain some early XP.)  I, for one, wanted to be an economic powerhouse and wasn't interested in getting into a bunch of fights, and the fact that the only quests that gave XP beyond Expand Borders all required combat was a real disappointment.

Now, as to the "casualness" of WoE, it's a pipe dream. WoE is a game, and the only way to advance in a game is to play it.

True, but there's a difference. Basically I imagine it as being as casual or hardcore as you want it to be. If you play it all the time and make sure you submit for every action and in doing so get really powerful, great! That means you really like the game enough to be that involved. But at the same time, if you want to only submit actions once in a while and take it not as centrally, that's fine too. It just means your character won't be as powerful.

My suggestion for inactivity is simple: if you don't submit any actions, you automatically spend your turn taking a special action called Work For The Crown, creating 20 :electrum for your Element.  That way there's still a strong impetus to take your turn, but if you can't make it or you forget or something, you still have some minor benefit to your team.  Anyone who Works For The Crown for 3 turns in a row is hired by the crown as a professional administrator and is no longer a player in WoE.  Other than that, your inactivity is your responsibility and you have to deal with the lack of success it comes with.


Quote
The sheer fact that it's possible in the first place to fall behind means something went wrong.
COMMUNIST!

No, seriously though, that's a ridiculous statement to make in any game, whether it's World of Elements, chess, or rock paper scissors. At any given time, 50% of the people in WoE will be below average, and it makes perfect sense that people who can't be bothered to play are in that 50%.

Ok maybe I phrased it a bit weird. I support Activity=Benefits, but in a game that is supposed to be designed to be more RPGish, Lack of Activity shouldn't equal downfall. Right now if you fail to keep up with the activity of others, you will get overrun, since the game is so focused on winning against other players. Basically I'm saying that not being active might mean you're Level 1, meaning you're below average, which is fine, but not being active shouldn't mean you can't get back into the game in general, which is how I see it as it is. What I'm saying is that being below average shouldn't mean you are out of the game, you shuold be able to keep up, but with nothing "Around your level" what can you do?


Quote
Also, the problem is the way there's a definite goal to conquer the map set up. I find it simpler if there's a"Questline" you can complete, and then you can keep playing once you finish the quests. This means shifiting the goal from conquering the map as a team to getting stronger as an individual.
OK, two things.  One, conquering the map is impossible. There are scores too many other players to kill in one turn, and they all resurrect in different places on the map anyway and can easily neutralize and recap the hexes near their city before you can get to them, much less kill them again.  Conquering does exactly two things: it improves your income from Work, and it forces other people to neutralize hexes if they want to expand into your territory.  There isn't any more importance to it than that.  If you want to make it a conquering game, make it so that when you conquer a team's capital city, that entire team converts and joins yours.  That would make conquering everything (by absorbing all of the players into one team) a solid goal.

Okay, fair enough. But even if it's an impossible goal, it sets the tone for the entire game. There's a diffference between "Training for the good of the team". and "Training to get stronger". As long as we are in defined teams in elements working on beating the other elements, the game will be centralized on being able to beat the other teams rather than getting stronger individually. This means that lack of activity will mean you will be "losing" which I don't really like the idea of in a RPG. You shouldn't be "Losing", just "Not Winning".

Two, quests shouldn't necessarily be set up in a 'line', but there should be minor quests you can do for XP, like "take this MacGuffin from here to the Outlaw City and bring me back a Greater MacGuffin and I'll give you 100 :electrum and 10 XP." Maybe a short 2-4 quest-long 'beginner's series' to familiarize new players with basic aspects of play, but other that that, stick with the stuff we talked about in Alpha.

You misinterpret me. In general in an RPG there are "Main Quests" and "Side Quests". The main questline is sort of the overlying plot in the game that gives incentive to getting stronger. In WoE this will likely involve your element and bringing glory to it. Then there are sidequests that help you get certain items, money, or gain XP. Basically, the goal of the game would essentially be to get stronger, but also to finish the Main Quests. For example, the main quests might have level requirements set up so that by the time you are near the level cap, you will have beaten the quests.


With that said, I think it would be nice to change the Team system to more of an affiliation system. Picking a starter deck, initial position, as well as differences in the questline should change based on what element you start as, but it shouldn't be so team based that you are forced to work with the members of your team.

Rather, I think it would be better to allow players to make their own alliances. They are ultimately affiliated with their home element but may make allies with whoever they want, with maybe a maximum of 3-5. This way you can work with who you want and it makes the gameplay itself a little less focused on your element only, but the questline will still be based on your element.

Anyways, these are just some thoughts.

Offline Korugar

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Re: Activity Check https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32409.msg409930#msg409930
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2011, 11:04:25 pm »
Hmm, I like the sleep mode idea, but regardless of what is implemented, it should definitely include players getting kicked if they don't let someone know they can't be around. To clarify: sleep mode should not be something a player is put in automatically, they should be kicked if they just stop submitting actions. One should have to make an effort(however small) to stay in a game like this.

I also agree with Nap that the endgame currently seems like "wipe all other teams out" (except maybe an ally or two, depending on how loyal you are). And I'm perfectly fine with that. Love it in fact. But the early game content may need to be expounded upon, as others have said. For someone who doesn't know how to go in depth with strategy, or cares enough to think about it quite a bit, exactly what they should do will be confusing at first. The tutorial mode definitely helps with that, but it doesn't really set goals, so much as shows someone a few aspects of the game.

Re: Activity Check https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32409.msg409941#msg409941
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2011, 11:14:53 pm »
PvE would be good. Although the only way to do it would be having a lot of pvp matches vs an ai which is impossible to know who won. So it would again just be put into pvp. Mayeb there coule be neutral pvp though. Like a dueling arena. Similar to a gladiators arena. Where someone could challenge someone else to a duel or something along those lines. Losing wouldnt cost any xp you can only win xp. People can bet and so on and so forth. Of course getting that going could be confusing.

 

anything
blarg: