WoE Alpha - General Feedback

[~Napalm]

I guess if I was to get to the root of the matter, I really only have a problem with one small thing. The rest was mostly just thinking out loud.

The issue I have is that Marks require Skill Points. This is the area of conflict for me. If I sat here long enough I could list a myriad of reason why I do not agree with this at all. But instead, I would merely like to offer a possible work around.

My "solution" would leave Marks as a Tier 0 skill, but you do not have to use Skill Points to attain them. In fact, I would like to make it IMPOSSIBLE to attain Marks with Skill Points. Instead, what if Marks were attained through a quest, started in the Capital City of the respective Element. The quests wouldn't have to necessarily very long or very short. This would be your "Learning the Basics" stage. I'm sure that we could actually have quite a bit of fun making quests for this. The player would still require the Mark before gaining access to the rest of the Skill Tree, but would now have an extra ELEVEN skill points to use on enhancing the character in other ways.

I don't know, I kinda like quests. What do you think of this idea? Discuss.

[Tiko]

I would love to see the fact that the player needs to spend some time at another element (mostly their capital I believe), or do some work/quests/trials for them to attain a fraction of their power. It would also give an opportunity to a less aggressive start maybe, for players who want to play 'multi-class', though it would be interesting in the case of, like Water-Fire.

[Kael Hate]

Personal opinion.

Marks should be a sign of alleigence or a sign of Elemental race.

The flavor text of the game explains that you are an elemental of your mark.
It was why there originally was a metamorphosis cost, because you where changing elemental race.

[~Napalm]

Yes, I just realized that my "solution" blocks the use of your opposite Mark, which I don't altogether like either. Steam Machines are fun I tell you! Perhaps these quests could be accepted and completed at the Omitron, but one or more major requirements for the completion of the quest would be located in the general area of the respective Element's Capital City?

Personal opinion.

Marks should be a sign of alleigence or a sign of Elemental race.

The flavor text of the game explains that you are an elemental of your mark.
It was why there originally was a metamorphosis cost, because you where changing elemental race.

This viewpoint basically means that diversity of decks is going to be lost. You're going to have a few elements to your disposal and battles will be pretty similar each time. Pendulums being rather difficult to attain also discourage diversity in deckbuilding. I am not a fan of this at all. But maybe that's just me.

[Captain Scibra]

I guess if I was to get to the root of the matter, I really only have a problem with one small thing. The rest was mostly just thinking out loud.

The issue I have is that Marks require Skill Points. This is the area of conflict for me. If I sat here long enough I could list a myriad of reason why I do not agree with this at all. But instead, I would merely like to offer a possible work around.

My "solution" would leave Marks as a Tier 0 skill, but you do not have to use Skill Points to attain them. In fact, I would like to make it IMPOSSIBLE to attain Marks with Skill Points. Instead, what if Marks were attained through a quest, started in the Capital City of the respective Element. The quests wouldn't have to necessarily very long or very short. This would be your "Learning the Basics" stage. I'm sure that we could actually have quite a bit of fun making quests for this. The player would still require the Mark before gaining access to the rest of the Skill Tree, but would now have an extra ELEVEN skill points to use on enhancing the character in other ways.

I don't know, I kinda like quests. What do you think of this idea? Discuss.

My argument is simple.  NO.  Being able to earn mark usage by skills is my preferred way.  It's instantaneous, as you might have to travel the whole effing map to get that mark.  This is especially true for the desire to make polar duos.  Not only do you have to travel the whole effing map, but you also have to have the city conquered so that you can be let in.  Also, if you wish for a dominance thing, it makes it even more complicated.  If the off-element is the support, you have to work for the mark, and trying to fit in pillars to avoid this just makes the deck sloppy.  Now if you try to make the off-element dominant to try and work around this issue, it gets incredibly expensive, especially since if pendulums are needed, being considered rare here.  Basically limiting mark earning to quests rather than SP is in my honest opinion limiting to the deckbuilding with multi-element synergy.  So NO.

[TStar]

I guess if I was to get to the root of the matter, I really only have a problem with one small thing. The rest was mostly just thinking out loud.

The issue I have is that Marks require Skill Points. This is the area of conflict for me. If I sat here long enough I could list a myriad of reason why I do not agree with this at all. But instead, I would merely like to offer a possible work around.

My "solution" would leave Marks as a Tier 0 skill, but you do not have to use Skill Points to attain them. In fact, I would like to make it IMPOSSIBLE to attain Marks with Skill Points. Instead, what if Marks were attained through a quest, started in the Capital City of the respective Element. The quests wouldn't have to necessarily very long or very short. This would be your "Learning the Basics" stage. I'm sure that we could actually have quite a bit of fun making quests for this. The player would still require the Mark before gaining access to the rest of the Skill Tree, but would now have an extra ELEVEN skill points to use on enhancing the character in other ways.

I don't know, I kinda like quests. What do you think of this idea? Discuss.

If Fire and Water begin at War, how does that solve any of the Alchemy issues that led to this discussion in the first place?  You'd never be able to get into a Water city to even take the quest.

Your 11 skill point example is assuming a player wants to obtain all 12 Marks.  Most likely a player will just get at most 2 or 3 Marks to get a specific off-element skill they want.  A player who just wants access to a bunch of Marks can always get the UW Mark after all.  Each element gets bonuses for being a mono, which thematically means players are discouraged from going outside their element.  Making off-element skills easier to obtain and it easier for players to "multi-element" with skills would run counter to the focus of the current system.  It makes so sense to encourage easier off-element skill acquisition if you are going to discourage multi-element card usage.

[Captain Scibra]

I guess if I was to get to the root of the matter, I really only have a problem with one small thing. The rest was mostly just thinking out loud.

The issue I have is that Marks require Skill Points. This is the area of conflict for me. If I sat here long enough I could list a myriad of reason why I do not agree with this at all. But instead, I would merely like to offer a possible work around.

My "solution" would leave Marks as a Tier 0 skill, but you do not have to use Skill Points to attain them. In fact, I would like to make it IMPOSSIBLE to attain Marks with Skill Points. Instead, what if Marks were attained through a quest, started in the Capital City of the respective Element. The quests wouldn't have to necessarily very long or very short. This would be your "Learning the Basics" stage. I'm sure that we could actually have quite a bit of fun making quests for this. The player would still require the Mark before gaining access to the rest of the Skill Tree, but would now have an extra ELEVEN skill points to use on enhancing the character in other ways.

I don't know, I kinda like quests. What do you think of this idea? Discuss.

If Fire and Water begin at War, how does that solve any of the Alchemy issues that led to this discussion in the first place?  You'd never be able to get into a Water city to even take the quest.

Your 11 skill point example is assuming a player wants to obtain all 12 Marks.  Most likely a player will just get at most 2 or 3 Marks to get a specific off-element skill they want.  A player who just wants access to a bunch of Marks can always get the UW Mark after all.  Each element gets bonuses for being a mono, which thematically means players are discouraged from going outside their element.  Making off-element skills easier to obtain and it easier for players to "multi-element" with skills would run counter to the focus of the current system.  It makes so sense to encourage easier off-element skill acquisition if you are going to discourage multi-element card usage.

The bonus for going mono is a balance to the easy acquisition of marks.  It's a risk-reward thing.  Each element is often hindered by staying within that element, because there is often a component missing, which can often be exploited, like the lack of control or healing.  For taking that risk, you get a bonus.  Going duo and etc. fills in those "holes" or accelerates the present components and gives a strategic advantage to that player, therefore the difficulty rating is dropped, so no bonus is given.

[~Napalm]

*snip*

If Fire and Water begin at War, how does that solve any of the Alchemy issues that led to this discussion in the first place?  You'd never be able to get into a Water city to even take the quest.

Your 11 skill point example is assuming a player wants to obtain all 12 Marks.  Most likely a player will just get at most 2 or 3 Marks to get a specific off-element skill they want.  A player who just wants access to a bunch of Marks can always get the UW Mark after all.  Each element gets bonuses for being a mono, which thematically means players are discouraged from going outside their element.  Making off-element skills easier to obtain and it easier for players to "multi-element" with skills would run counter to the focus of the current system.  It makes so sense to encourage easier off-element skill acquisition if you are going to discourage multi-element card usage.

It doesn't, which is why I suggested having all the Mark quests Start at the Omnitron and having requirements closer to the Element's home. (2 posts below my original suggestion)

And you're right, my 11 skill example was an extreme.

Each element also gets a bonus for using 50% of their element, which encourages duo's. Requiring skill points to unlock a Mark AND access a skill tree uses up a lot of skills, limiting duo's to a select few. I'm not trying to go off and build an Air/Life FFQ deck as a Fire Elemental. But diversity in my Duo's is something that I would like.

About the Mark of Underworld. You're right, I could gain access to different marks this way, but it is incredibly unreliable to do so.

This does not actually make Off Element skill trees easier to attain. In fact, it makes it harder. You have to spend the time unlocking the Mark, which is what Male is against. It encourages initial leveling up in your own element, but later as you finish some of these quests, opens up many new options for you.

So while it takes more effort to use off element marks, cards, and skills, I think in the end, it creates more diversity.

[Tiko]

But don't forget, that right now you can walk in to your local trainer, and ask him for 50 bucks to teach you all or any powers of the world. I don't think that's really viable in an RPG-like game.

Also, I don't think it will be much easier to obtain Marks this way, as you're spending a lot of time traveling around the map, doing quest(s) for the element of subject (maybe traveling some more) for no real benefit, except the ability to actually Metamorph (these quests would gain you no XP I assume) and the ability to progress further in that element. It would be a real drawback after you meet up with your first hostile elemental, as your opponent may be levels ahead of you by then.

[Korugar]

That's only for Alpha. In beta it won't work like that.

[~Napalm]

But don't forget, that right now you can walk in to your local trainer, and ask him for 50 bucks to teach you all or any powers of the world. I don't think that's really viable in an RPG-like game.

Also, I don't think it will be much easier to obtain Marks this way, as you're spending a lot of time traveling around the map, doing quest(s) for the element of subject (maybe traveling some more) for no real benefit, except the ability to actually Metamorph (these quests would gain you no XP I assume) and the ability to progress further in that element. It would be a real drawback after you meet up with your first hostile elemental, as your opponent may be levels ahead of you by then.

Oh no, they're quests that involve moving up in the game. They would definitely give you experience. If I had my way at least

[TimerClock14]

I was discussing this in chat with Hugs, and decided that some consolidating of topics is desperately needed. Posting actions for one round requires 5 tabs open at minimum.