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Re: WoE Alpha - General Feedback http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25138.msg338242#msg338242
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2011, 09:52:03 PM »
How about generic improvements providing some kind of benefit like giving the current friendly players on the hex some sort of special ability like "Harvest 1 Air Pillar on this hex each turn?" or "You can craft weapons here for 100 :electrum?"

Alternatively it could be like a "player shop" whose prices favor allied/at peace element players and sell a small set of cards/items, and players can sell their own cards for resale in the shop. Electrum gained from purchases could be added to revenue.

If either of these suggestions are used there might need to be a limit on how many improvements you can build (perhaps an action to 'Deconstruct' improvements would be a good idea.)

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Re: WoE Alpha - General Feedback http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25138.msg338468#msg338468
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2011, 08:38:33 AM »
How about generic improvements providing some kind of benefit like giving the current friendly players on the hex some sort of special ability like "Harvest 1 Air Pillar on this hex each turn?" or "You can craft weapons here for 100 :electrum?"

Alternatively it could be like a "player shop" whose prices favor allied/at peace element players and sell a small set of cards/items, and players can sell their own cards for resale in the shop. Electrum gained from purchases could be added to revenue.

If either of these suggestions are used there might need to be a limit on how many improvements you can build (perhaps an action to 'Deconstruct' improvements would be a good idea.)
Personally, I would rather have the Improvement idea being tossed, for 3 main reasons (one being of Timer's):

1). Aesthetics: If multiple players begin taking these 'Build an Improvement' skills, and then start going crazy town on every hex they can place it in, the map is going to look incredibly cluttered with all these improvement structures all over the place (save for the ones in the forests, but still).
2). Mechanics: If you can only build one type of improvement on a hex at a time, then other (ally) players can't use that skill on that hex unless the structure is destroyed, which makes the skill scale worse as you level up and attempt to cover the map. If you place MULTIPLE improvements in a hex, then the mechanic of the improvement needs to be balanced if it stacks (harvest X pillars on this hex each turn = very expensive), or viable if it doesn't stack (generic XP boost for building another one I guess...)
3). Limitations: Only Fire elemental players (see their skill tree) can affect these 'improvement' skills, which doesn't seem right. We could add quests to get rid of them at some point, but that feels more contrived that you're basically building a quest AROUND skills that might not be picked up for a while (or used!), and even then, it feels lame that destroying a supposed improvement isn't like using 'siege' on a town or major city.

If anything, the first two (namely the first) reasons are what worry me the most. With these monsters and multiple player icons potentially entering the event, the last thing the Map organizer needs to deal with is adding (or removing) all these minute icons. Aren't terrain changes supposed to be some of the more long-lasting Tier 3 skills? (Fireguard, Shaman, Deep Tunneler, etc.)

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Re: WoE Alpha - General Feedback http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25138.msg338476#msg338476
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2011, 09:03:01 AM »
Perhaps most improvements could simply be limited to one-time effects. For example, when someone built a windmill, every Air player could receive a small electrum bonus that round (just an example). You wouldn't bother actually adding a windmill icon though, nor tracking how many windmills we're in that hex. Improvement skills would offer their users a way to get small xp or electrum bonuses while perhaps helping their team in some way too.

Another thought is that perhaps whenever a hex is taken over by another element, all previous improvements are razed, thus lessening the likely-hood that the map would be overflowing with improvements (fire's skill would still be useful, in that they receive an xp bonus for using it).

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Re: WoE Alpha - General Feedback http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25138.msg338613#msg338613
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2011, 05:12:14 PM »
I decided to compare the fast travel options of the different elements (work in progress):

ElementHexes/turnAP/activationOther costsLimitationsComment
:aether32-no anglesvery powerfull, but tier 2 skill
:air41-needs at least one other playerHas potential, needs some co÷rdination, depends on number of players
:darkness1-1611 relictarget = other player with same skillCould be powerfull, depending on the number of players, especially because you have even one action point left
:death32Next turn no moving-Weak, 3 hexes in two turns is even less than normal movement.
:earth41-Between tunnelsUsefull to travel around you territory, useless when you are traveling around the map
:entropy1-1621 relicTarget hex is randomNeeds testing to show it's usefull/uselessness.
:fire621 creature cardBetween Volcano'sVery fast, but limited. The 1 creature card won't matter much, you can salvage them after beating an element with not much usefull cards.
:gravity421 extra roundOnly from rocket to rocketFast but very limited. Usefull to join the action or retreat, not to speed around
:life41-Forest hexes onlyGood skill, though likely limited to the outer parts of the map
:light81-Stallion routeFastest of all, but just like gravity, only good to get out of the corner
:time41-Camel routeLike earth: Usefull to travel around you territory, useless when you are traveling around the map
:water32-Water hexesUsefull to travel around, but not much faster than normal movement.
Cool table. It will be useful in balancing these fast travel skills.

I disagree with Death March being weak. That skill it not supposed to be used for long distance traveling. It's a skill that helps you do that extra push and reach your destination earlier.

Let say we are both 3 hexes from a city. Using Death March, I will be there on round earlier than you. And because I have business in that City, not being able to move during the next round doesn't affect me.


How about generic improvements providing some kind of benefit like giving the current friendly players on the hex some sort of special ability like "Harvest 1 Air Pillar on this hex each turn?" or "You can craft weapons here for 100 :electrum?"

Alternatively it could be like a "player shop" whose prices favor allied/at peace element players and sell a small set of cards/items, and players can sell their own cards for resale in the shop. Electrum gained from purchases could be added to revenue.

If either of these suggestions are used there might need to be a limit on how many improvements you can build (perhaps an action to 'Deconstruct' improvements would be a good idea.)
Personally, I would rather have the Improvement idea being tossed, for 3 main reasons (one being of Timer's):

1). Aesthetics: If multiple players begin taking these 'Build an Improvement' skills, and then start going crazy town on every hex they can place it in, the map is going to look incredibly cluttered with all these improvement structures all over the place (save for the ones in the forests, but still).
2). Mechanics: If you can only build one type of improvement on a hex at a time, then other (ally) players can't use that skill on that hex unless the structure is destroyed, which makes the skill scale worse as you level up and attempt to cover the map. If you place MULTIPLE improvements in a hex, then the mechanic of the improvement needs to be balanced if it stacks (harvest X pillars on this hex each turn = very expensive), or viable if it doesn't stack (generic XP boost for building another one I guess...)
3). Limitations: Only Fire elemental players (see their skill tree) can affect these 'improvement' skills, which doesn't seem right. We could add quests to get rid of them at some point, but that feels more contrived that you're basically building a quest AROUND skills that might not be picked up for a while (or used!), and even then, it feels lame that destroying a supposed improvement isn't like using 'siege' on a town or major city.

If anything, the first two (namely the first) reasons are what worry me the most. With these monsters and multiple player icons potentially entering the event, the last thing the Map organizer needs to deal with is adding (or removing) all these minute icons. Aren't terrain changes supposed to be some of the more long-lasting Tier 3 skills? (Fireguard, Shaman, Deep Tunneler, etc.)
I agree that those skills should be scrapped. I would do it right now if we had replacements, but before we do, they can act as placeholders.

I do like the idea of players being able to build stuff. But I'd like it to be like this:

1. All elements can build stuff without any special skills. It's going to be REALLY expensive and time-consuming though
2. Players with the 'Architect' skill would be able to build stuff faster

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Re: WoE Alpha - General Feedback http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25138.msg338615#msg338615
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2011, 05:14:34 PM »
There ought to be a general ('vanilla' if you will) form of fast travel.

Maybe something like a passing caravan in the desert, or a fleet of ships from a country you are not at war with.
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Re: WoE Alpha - General Feedback http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25138.msg338683#msg338683
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2011, 07:34:56 PM »
I decided to compare the fast travel options of the different elements (work in progress):

ElementHexes/turnAP/activationOther costsLimitationsComment
:aether32-no anglesvery powerfull, but tier 2 skill
:air41-needs at least one other playerHas potential, needs some co÷rdination, depends on number of players
:darkness1-1611 relictarget = other player with same skillCould be powerfull, depending on the number of players, especially because you have even one action point left
:death32Next turn no moving-Weak, 3 hexes in two turns is even less than normal movement.
:earth41-Between tunnelsUsefull to travel around you territory, useless when you are traveling around the map
:entropy1-1621 relicTarget hex is randomNeeds testing to show it's usefull/uselessness.
:fire621 creature cardBetween Volcano'sVery fast, but limited. The 1 creature card won't matter much, you can salvage them after beating an element with not much usefull cards.
:gravity421 extra roundOnly from rocket to rocketFast but very limited. Usefull to join the action or retreat, not to speed around
:life41-Forest hexes onlyGood skill, though likely limited to the outer parts of the map
:light81-Stallion routeFastest of all, but just like gravity, only good to get out of the corner
:time41-Camel routeLike earth: Usefull to travel around you territory, useless when you are traveling around the map
:water32-Water hexesUsefull to travel around, but not much faster than normal movement.
Cool table. It will be useful in balancing these fast travel skills.

I disagree with Death March being weak. That skill it not supposed to be used for long distance traveling. It's a skill that helps you do that extra push and reach your destination earlier.

Let say we are both 3 hexes from a city. Using Death March, I will be there on round earlier than you. And because I have business in that City, not being able to move during the next round doesn't affect me.

(snip)
Yes, got that, but when I have dimensional walk, cloud rider, or something like that, I can do the same. And, the moments fast travel is most usefull in when you are trying to cross the map for some reason (for example the scrolls quest), and there the death march won't help you. They way it can be used right now it is unique, I have to agree on that, but it feels quite useless, because it can only be used as a finisher, not really to travel fast. Also, air elementals will be slower at that quest too (or they will have to team up together, or wait until they get cloud rider).
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Re: WoE Alpha - General Feedback http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25138.msg338751#msg338751
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2011, 09:20:32 PM »
I agree that those skills should be scrapped. I would do it right now if we had replacements, but before we do, they can act as placeholders.
Does this include the Lotus Trap skill?

Also, silly question: Do you have to visit the Omnitron first before you can start the Scrolls of the Prophecy quest?

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Re: WoE Alpha - General Feedback http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25138.msg338815#msg338815
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2011, 12:08:35 AM »
A 'vanilla' fast travel would be a huge benefit to UW players (the only faction with no form of fast travel in their skill tree) but it would be an indirect nerf for all the fast travel skills.

Yes, you need to visit the Omnitron before you can take that quest since the quest giver is on that hex.
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Re: WoE Alpha - General Feedback http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25138.msg338952#msg338952
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2011, 04:44:53 AM »
There ought to be a general ('vanilla' if you will) form of fast travel.

Maybe something like a passing caravan in the desert, or a fleet of ships from a country you are not at war with.
Right now it's all about choices. Either you spend skill points on PvP skills and move slower, or you spend them them on movement skills and move faster. If there were other ways to move faster, like this 'vanilla' fast travel, everyone would just ignore movement skills.

Yes, got that, but when I have dimensional walk, cloud rider, or something like that, I can do the same. And, the moments fast travel is most usefull in when you are trying to cross the map for some reason (for example the scrolls quest), and there the death march won't help you. They way it can be used right now it is unique, I have to agree on that, but it feels quite useless, because it can only be used as a finisher, not really to travel fast. Also, air elementals will be slower at that quest too (or they will have to team up together, or wait until they get cloud rider).
Yes, but those skills are Tier 2 and Tier 3 so you cannot really compare them. Death March is supposed to be situational, just like most of the Tier 1 fast travel skills are.

Whether or not the skill is useful, really depends on how many "destinations" WoE will have. If there are numerous instances where you need to travel to point A without the need to move during the next round, then the skill is great.

Also lets not forget that you can use Death March to flee from 'Aggressive Charge'.

I agree that those skills should be scrapped. I would do it right now if we had replacements, but before we do, they can act as placeholders.
Does this include the Lotus Trap skill?

Also, silly question: Do you have to visit the Omnitron first before you can start the Scrolls of the Prophecy quest?

Nope, Lotus Trap stays. It's a skill that is a nightmare to organize, but it's also really cool.

Yes. To take a quest, any quest, you need to be in that same hex.

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Re: WoE Alpha - General Feedback http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25138.msg338965#msg338965
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2011, 05:54:37 AM »
Lotus Trap stays. It's a skill that is a nightmare to organize, but it's also really cool.
Oh good! I was afraid my favorite Life skill might be on the chopping block.

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Re: WoE Alpha - General Feedback http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25138.msg339560#msg339560
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2011, 02:00:06 PM »
Ok, since no one else posted about this, I shall. Last night, we were braining about WoE skills on chat. Here are the ideas I remember and like:

- Make the Tier1 skills more accessible. Put the Mark skills in place of the current Bane skills, and give the Bane skills to players automatically at the start of the game, as a racial bonus. Water elementals, for example, hate and despise Fire elementals since their birth, so all of them get Bane of Fire at the beginning of their lives. UW players could either get something like 'Anger', which is +1 XP to any win (Notorious would have to be replaced), or could choose a Bane skill from any element.

- Get rid of Crafting skills in the skill tree. Currently, they might be too restricted to one element (even if they are at Tier1). Removing them would give more space for more interesting skills. Instead of learning them at level-ups, players could learn it by doing quests in the capitals of the relevant elements (and occasionally at other places), which would go like this: You pay a fee for the master to teach you. He gives you various quests (not too many and none of them too long, so as not to penalize crafters too much) to prove your worth, and when you are done, you must craft your first weapon (which would obviously be of the element you are). As a reward, you would get the crafting skill you wanted, perhaps some crafting material and some XP for your troubles.
I believe this would be a nice way to free up places in the skill tree for more interesting stuff, keep rare cards a bit rarer in the beginning, and would also make it more interesting to learn the skill.

- UW revenue: Give all of them a basic revenue of about 30 :electrum (whatever number fits), and give the (neutralizing) player about 30 :electrum whenever they neutralize a hex (they raid the hex, stealing all valuables then burn it to the ground, etc.). I see two advantages of this: First, they will have to get in conflicts if they want money (assuming conflict = good). Second, it shows the lack of unity in UW, as only the player who raids the hex gets the electrum.

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Re: WoE Alpha - General Feedback http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25138.msg339583#msg339583
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2011, 02:46:16 PM »
Hmm, I like it. Would you still be able to learn a bane of X skill or would each bane of X skill be specific to one element? (for example, if you as a death player want to start a war against fire). I would prefer the latter, to give each element something more unique (skill's can be mixed). Removing them is a good idea, because they are more of a novelty right now, not worth taking, unless you plan on getting the tier 2 skill(s) right above afterwards.

Second, good idea. The quest could be some kind of learning path like for weapon crafting for the others you could simply replace the different spots with that elements counter parts (tree of life instead of lava pool for example):
Visit the lava pool, to get to know intense heat.
Get yourself a hammer (from some kind of NPC or by visiting a town/city or another element)
Get the needed stuff to craft a fahrenheit in the burning city
Win a battle using the power of the card you just crafted
You can now craft more fahrenheits
Visit Outlaw city to gain more knowledge about different elementals
Congratulations, you can now craft the rare weapons of every element.

Or instead of outlaw city, you could make have to visit a town of that element to learn to craft a the card of that element. That means you can't craft cards of elements you are at war with (which makes sense actually, I mean, they wouldn't want you to use your powers against yourself).

I like the idea of giving underworld players revenue on neutralizing a hex. You could even have them gain revenue for neutral hexes (as a neutral, thus oncontrolled hex is bound to be 'reigned' by outcasts). Problem with that is that in can't be too high, or underworld players would gain a big head start, but too low would make it quite useless in the end. Maybe start at 1-3 per hex and increase with 1-2 for each 10-15 rounds the event is running.
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