Skill Trees - Third Beta Version - PLEASE VOTE AGAIN!

[kev]

My biggest note: I still feel like trading with other players should not require a skill point.  What a pain.

I voted for Entropy and Darkness as most powerful for the third time in a row.  If mage hunter was changed to a max of 3 spell cards I'd be more comfortable with the whole Darkness tree.

I feel like the Fire tree is a tad weak because it's a popular element with strong standalone cards, and I'm fine with that.  But Entropy continues to be voted the most OP, on top of a strong following and a great cardset as evidenced by the War.  If Illusion of Power wins the Entropy player upped cards, it's OP for a Tier 1 skill.  I'd also consider switching Trickster and Nihilism or maybe moving one skill that limits your opponent in deckbuilding to the other side of the tree.  Nihilism is out of place with Shapeshifter et al, I know, but too many deckbuilding constraints is hard to overcome, especially at a low level.  As is a level 5 Trickster in the arena will trounce everybody else.

I also voted for Time as most powerful.  A level 8 Champion is win, but more importantly the Research skill means a player without Breeding (for example) can consume a Relic and breed up to (6 per action * 3 actions per round * 6 rounds =) 108 creatures.  It also gives you access to every mark, the black market, and nine different fast travel modes.  In a pinch you could use it to Treasure Hunt (water skill) and net 4 relics in 6 turns.  It's flexibility might make it OP.

What does "take minor damage" mean from Phoenix Rider (fire skill)?

Does Pack Hunter (life skill) work in the Arena?

We have skills that require us to discard a card, skills that require us to discard a relic, but no skills that require us to discard an upped card.  Food for thought.

Lastly, I don't like the Fireguard tree.  Build a Forge seems particularly useless because there won't be many lava hexes and someone else will build a forge there before I can.  Maybe I'll just build and destroy my own forges, earning almost 2 XP and 50 electrum per turn. 

[Scaredgirl]

My biggest note: I still feel like trading with other players should not require a skill point.  What a pain.

I voted for Entropy and Darkness as most powerful for the third time in a row.  If mage hunter was changed to a max of 3 spell cards I'd be more comfortable with the whole Darkness tree.

I feel like the Fire tree is a tad weak because it's a popular element with strong standalone cards, and I'm fine with that.  But Entropy continues to be voted the most OP, on top of a strong following and a great cardset as evidenced by the War.  If Illusion of Power wins the Entropy player upped cards, it's OP for a Tier 1 skill.  I'd also consider switching Trickster and Nihilism or maybe moving one skill that limits your opponent in deckbuilding to the other side of the tree.  Nihilism is out of place with Shapeshifter et al, I know, but too many deckbuilding constraints is hard to overcome, especially at a low level.  As is a level 5 Trickster in the arena will trounce everybody else.

I also voted for Time as most powerful.  A level 8 Champion is win, but more importantly the Research skill means a player without Breeding (for example) can consume a Relic and breed up to (6 per action * 3 actions per round * 6 rounds =) 108 creatures.  It also gives you access to every mark, the black market, and nine different fast travel modes.  In a pinch you could use it to Treasure Hunt (water skill) and net 4 relics in 6 turns.  It's flexibility might make it OP.

What does "take minor damage" mean from Phoenix Rider (fire skill)?

Does Pack Hunter (life skill) work in the Arena?

We have skills that require us to discard a card, skills that require us to discard a relic, but no skills that require us to discard an upped card.  Food for thought.

Lastly, I don't like the Fireguard tree.  Build a Forge seems particularly useless because there won't be many lava hexes and someone else will build a forge there before I can.  Maybe I'll just build and destroy my own forges, earning almost 2 XP and 50 electrum per turn. 

Good feedback. I have some answers.

"Trading" skill. There will be a way to trade with other players even without this skill. The reason it's still vague is that I don't yet know what the exact trading system will be. One option is to use the Global Auction which is open to everyone no matter where you are located (practicality over realism). Second option is to trade with allies who are in your hex.

For this "Trading" (or maybe "Improved Trading") skill I was thinking something like trading with players that are not in your hex, or maybe trading with non-allies. I don't know yet. It will be decided later.

Yes, Mage Hunter might be a bit OP. Limiting the amount of spells like you suggested could work.

About Illusion of Power and upped cards. There is a new rule. WoE will work the same way as War does, meaning that players don't own upped cards. They own unupped cards and can only use upped cards if their skills let them to do that. So you cannot salvage upped cards.

Breeding. You need two cards to produce 1 card. So this example of yours requires the person to have 216 cards to produced those 108 cards. Not that easy.

One thing. You do know that you can take skills from any of the 13 skill trees, even without "Research"?

"Minor damage" is most likely discarding one card per round.

Some skills, like Pack Hunter, won't work in the arena.

Forge might be more useful than what the current (test) map suggests. Also the numbers are all still just random numbers I put there so they will all see some changes once we get to beta.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Korugar]

What about....

Sudden Wind: 1AP to knock all non-air players on a certain hex back into their default stance.

Would that be balanced, and fit enough with your theme?

That's another issue we're trying to avoid.

Skills that:
-Moving other players into hexes/affect hexes
-Involve counters
-Deal environmental effects based on location
-Cause extra discarding
-Create new Siege moves
-Cost high amounts of AP/require Relic usage
etc.

...are too complicated for Tier 1. We've used up so many ideas already regarding the above and then some, so... yeah. ^^;

OK, that makes sense. Still, as you said, many/all of those have already been used, so....If the skill(calm before the storm, I think?) was considered OP for sure, no doubt, has to be replaced, would you consider my suggestion balanced?

[1world24]

i find the life to be op with all the salvage bonuses you get to take about 1 whole deck when you win with a mastery which is easy with heals so its tree might need a nerf.

[Scaredgirl]

What about....

Sudden Wind: 1AP to knock all non-air players on a certain hex back into their default stance.

Would that be balanced, and fit enough with your theme?

That's another issue we're trying to avoid.

Skills that:
-Moving other players into hexes/affect hexes
-Involve counters
-Deal environmental effects based on location
-Cause extra discarding
-Create new Siege moves
-Cost high amounts of AP/require Relic usage
etc.

...are too complicated for Tier 1. We've used up so many ideas already regarding the above and then some, so... yeah. ^^;

OK, that makes sense. Still, as you said, many/all of those have already been used, so....If the skill(calm before the storm, I think?) was considered OP for sure, no doubt, has to be replaced, would you consider my suggestion balanced?

Something like that might work. I would make some changes to the theme though. "knock all players back into their default stance" sounds a bit weird because we have armies and one round is supposed to last for days in game time. Other problem is of course that the skill is active, not passive. That's not a deal breaker, but it's something we should avoid if possible.

Here's how I would use that same concept:

"Calming Winds"
All players in your hex with 'Attack' stance, have their stance changed to 'Defend'. All players with 'Aggressive Attack', have their stance changed to 'Attack'.

Idea is that this calm wind makes armies not want to fight by lowering their level of aggressiveness. Passive which makes it easier for the organizers. I also think that the effect is a bit more interesting than the more simple "knock all players back into their default stance". This skill would probably work better as skill though, and it most definitely is not a Tier 1 skill.

[Kael Hate]

I was looking at the skills and how I'd play them in the game and also in relation to deckbuilding.
Some suggestions so far.

1. I think players should only have 1 mark and it defines their faction. It is their species of elemental in effect. The card the elemental can use can be anything, but the faction mark gives them a mono starter deck and allows them to learn skills without special training.

Mark of Water
You are aligned to this faction and must use this mark. You will receive a share of this factions revenue.

Mark of Quantum / Underworld / The Unaligned
You have chosen to stay mutable and may use any mark at will. This denies you access to any faction revenue.


2. Trees should have 20 skills total. This allows an Elemental to become pure and a dedicated Mono rather than being forced to choose other faction skills. I don't suggest fattening out the tiers with 10 more different skills but add a generic dedication Skill that matches the faction. The player at his ultimate level will then be able to make a monodeck fully upped and should be fitting of a Champion of that faction.

(This Skill Appears once in the Tier 1 list, twice in the tier 2 list, thrice in the tier 3 list and 4x in the tier 4 list for a total of 10 extra skills)
Dedication to Aether
Choose an Aether card in your possesion when you gain this skill.
Twice duiring deckbuilding you may either add a copy of the chosen card to your deck for free or upgrade a copy of the chosen card.


3. With this method, you don't have to choose wierd pathes, just have more skills of that faction of the lower level. This allows the player to avoid steryotypes if they wish and the team/faction to have a far mix of skills rather than 50% Mages 50% Warriors or the like.

Tier 1 - To Choose a Tier 1 Skill you must be aligned with its Faction or train with a Master of that Faction
Tier 2 - To Choose a Tier 2 Skill you must be aligned with its Faction or train with a Master of that Faction and have more or all Tier 1 skills of that Faction
Tier 3 - To Choose a Tier 3 Skill you must be aligned with its Faction or train with a Master of that Faction and have more or all Tier 2 skills of that Faction
Tier 4 - To Choose a Tier 4 Skill you must be aligned with its Faction or train with a Master of that Faction and have more or all Tier 3 skills of that Faction


4. Change Underworld to the Unaligned and give them a mutable mark. Why should elemtnals without a mark all be hellbent on revenge. Let them choose their own destiny but since they are unaligned they are going to have to earn their own way.

5, Unaligned players don't recieve revenue from a faction but allow them to gain funds by returning faction owned land to a neutral state. Ie When a hex  is made neutral by an unaligned elemental, it gains the revenue it would have generated this turn.

6. Some of the skills scream min/max me. I will spend the day looking at them and give a more detailed opinion tonight. Hopefully we'll find this in the Alpha testing if it occurs.

[ZephyrPhantom]

Note: The order I put these in doesn't necessarily mean I prefer one over the other, I just think they fit the field most appropriatley.

Which ones i'd like to play

  I like the negation sort of feeling that aether has with it's skills.  Decent starters, and champion of aether sounds very mysterious and cool.
  While alchemy is cool and weapons means you get eternity, shields can be lifelines.
   I've always wondered what it's like to be a neutral charecter of elements.  Also illegal items could provide some interesting benefits.

Strongest
   Early skills can lead to some extremely strong decks being made for air.
  3 very strong skills that aren't champion'd  Nihilism and Confusion limit quanta a lot. Can gain needed cards quickly due to early skills.
 : Pretty much the ruler of forests.

Fun
  No mark, so getting creative is almost a requirement.
   BURN! BURN everything!  That sounds like fun. Very aggresive, so there will be a lot of combat.
   Getting random skills.... now that would create some crazy decks.

[Kael Hate]

Question on Skill rules regarding a trainer.

Why would I as a creature made of elemental energy have to find a trainer to do things inherent to my elemental form.
2nd to this If I have to find a Champion of Entropy to train me in the Tier 4 skill, why can't he get off his butt to help defend the Entropy Capital from invasion?

[MattXtream]

For champ underworld ability, do you gain the token or the xp first? i'm assuming token but i wanted to make sure.

[Scaredgirl]

For champ underworld ability, do you gain the token or the xp first? i'm assuming token but i wanted to make sure.

You gain token first.

[Korugar]

Equilibrium: If you and your opponent have the same size decks, gain triple salvage and suffer no discarding.

Second tier Cyborg skill, from gravity. Does "same size" mean exactly the same, or within one, two, etc.?

[7wavemaster]

For darkness IMHO i think quanta leech sounds better then mana leech.