Poll

What method of choosing applicants should we use?

Auction System (will be similar to last war, with some slight adjustments)
9 (32.1%)
Draft System (multiple rounds, as is currently planned)
7 (25%)
Other (please post if you have another suggestion that isn't an auction or draft)
0 (0%)
Draft System (a single round draft, to bid on the entire team at once.)
12 (42.9%)

Total Members Voted: 28

Voting closed: December 03, 2018, 02:02:49 AM

Poll

What method of Vault Building should we use?

Market System (will be similar to what we have with adjustments to prices based on feedback)
10 (52.6%)
Cards bought at a 1:1 ratio (similar to War 8 and earlier wars before the introduction of the market system)
7 (36.8%)
Other (please post if you have another suggestion that isn't a market, or 1:1 system for buying cards)
2 (10.5%)

Total Members Voted: 19

Voting closed: October 20, 2018, 04:15:25 AM

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Offline serprex

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Re: War #12 - Planned Changes (Work In Progress) (Discussion) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=66382.msg1281219#msg1281219
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2018, 01:26:15 PM »
I'm going to give a rationale for why SoPa should be nerfed as much as SoFr: SoFr is trouble for everyone, whereas SoPa shits on Team Light most specifically. With Light already going through the mud with all their core cards being nerfed since they're such strong support (sanct, miracle, sundial, hope) it may be easier to equally nerf those stallbreaker cards (SoPa, Fractal). I can see you're trying by reducing the cost of the rest of their cards, but even if Light ends up with a fair vault size for price, they're still at a disadvantage since every deck is half Light crap as opposed to every other team besides Gravity being able to threaten Sanct stall as one of their decks

A fair (ie, not based on past results) starting-auction-funds can be worked out by categorizing cards as either Support or Core (ie, what's good splashed with any element vs what's plain good value) & then computing some f(supportcards, corecards, totalcards) = startingfunds

Anyways last nitpick: Prices at multiples of 5 are silly, just divide everything by 5, only use is that one can bid 3 more on one person & 2 more on another person. But in that case you're better off making everything a multiple of 6

edit: support vs core is also why we see the debate between SoPa & SoFr. SoPa's support, SoFr's core. By JCJ's logic that SoPa is balanced because everyone can use it, Sanct/Miracle should be cheaper
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 01:29:26 PM by serprex »

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Re: War #12 - Planned Changes (Work In Progress) (Discussion) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=66382.msg1281220#msg1281220
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2018, 03:10:57 PM »
I'm going to give a rationale for why SoPa should be nerfed as much as SoFr: SoFr is trouble for everyone, whereas SoPa shits on Team Light most specifically. With Light already going through the mud with all their core cards being nerfed since they're such strong support (sanct, miracle, sundial, hope) it may be easier to equally nerf those stallbreaker cards (SoPa, Fractal). I can see you're trying by reducing the cost of the rest of their cards, but even if Light ends up with a fair vault size for price, they're still at a disadvantage since every deck is half Light crap as opposed to every other team besides Gravity being able to threaten Sanct stall as one of their decks

A fair (ie, not based on past results) starting-auction-funds can be worked out by categorizing cards as either Support or Core (ie, what's good splashed with any element vs what's plain good value) & then computing some f(supportcards, corecards, totalcards) = startingfunds

Anyways last nitpick: Prices at multiples of 5 are silly, just divide everything by 5, only use is that one can bid 3 more on one person & 2 more on another person. But in that case you're better off making everything a multiple of 6

edit: support vs core is also why we see the debate between SoPa & SoFr. SoPa's support, SoFr's core. By JCJ's logic that SoPa is balanced because everyone can use it, Sanct/Miracle should be cheaper
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Re: War #12 - Planned Changes (Work In Progress) (Discussion) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=66382.msg1281221#msg1281221
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2018, 03:25:27 PM »
Sop is still pricey as hell, but fair imo. And sofree shits on aether more than sop does to light. I would say sanc and miracle could be 90 though, 10 cheaper each
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Offline worldwideweb3

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Re: War #12 - Planned Changes (Work In Progress) (Discussion) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=66382.msg1281222#msg1281222
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2018, 03:48:54 PM »
I just wanna say that reflective is way too overpriced. I'll look at the rest after.
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Offline JonathanCrazyJ

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Re: War #12 - Planned Changes (Work In Progress) (Discussion) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=66382.msg1281224#msg1281224
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2018, 06:06:36 PM »
Prices:
Some have reasoning attached, others are just general balance

++ = should cost WAY more
+ = should cost more
- = should cost less
-- = should cost WAY less


Lycan -

Flesh Spider -
Mummy + (very good unupped creature, extremely good in RT mummies)

Gravity Shield ++ (look at all of the other 'tech' cards, purify, reflective etc, all over 100. Gravity Shield is massively strong agains some elements, should be similar to those cards. This is not actually an SOP thing because i almost always run PC, this is against elements that pretty much only have fat creatures. Wings should be a comparison card too.)
Shard of Focus - (PC, strong PC, but not insane PC, because the weakness to CC and teh turn delay, 190 would make more sense IMO)
Saphire Charger -

Frog + (with the rest of life cheap, as a war winning element, this one card IS a strong card, and it is nova fodder too.)

Immolation -
Phoenix -

Ice Bolt -
Freeze -- (both of these are really inferior CC, Ice bolt can't OHK on its own which is really bad for a stallbreak card, freeze has been barely used by anyone)

Miracle -
Sanc -
Hope ++

Gargoyle - (rest of dark is pretty pricey, basic creature should be a little cheaper)

Turquoise Nymph -- (it's in line with 30 cost cards)
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Offline serprex

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Re: War #12 - Planned Changes (Work In Progress) (Discussion) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=66382.msg1281226#msg1281226
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2018, 09:37:52 PM »
Sop is still pricey as hell, but fair imo. And sofree shits on aether more than sop does to light. I would say sanc and miracle could be 90 though, 10 cheaper each

Light has to defend SoPa from every element. Aether only has to defend SoFr from Air. This follows from your own reasoning

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Re: War #12 - Planned Changes (Work In Progress) (Discussion) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=66382.msg1281231#msg1281231
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2018, 05:22:13 AM »
Dark cards are good support, sure, but the entire element shouldn't suffer for it. Just because darkness has a lack of offensive creatures and relies on gargoyle and dragons for offence doesn't mean those cards are strong enough to justify the price (black dragon 1.5x emerald dragon in the draft market, and gargoyle priced equal to ghost of the past, a much better card, is a bit wrong I think)
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Re: War #12 - Planned Changes (Work In Progress) (Discussion) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=66382.msg1281300#msg1281300
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2018, 08:19:38 AM »
Update with what WMs have considered through this time:

  • Fixed incremental discards/salvage table to show fewer discards/salvages the closer the match.
  • EC: We will try to refrain from using timed EC
  • Coupons: We had the idea to implement a minimum on the coupons, such as a minimum of 30 using the coupons, or the coupons only applied to cards greater than 50, for example.
  • Market: We have not had an opportunity to look at the market in detail, but we do recognize your concerns over certain cards being off-price.
  • UR: We will still need to discuss ultra rare cards, such as nymphs and marks. For now, our leaning is that swapping nymphs with their respective alchemy cards is fine, but swapping nymphs with dragons is more iffy, and may need to go on a case by case basis.
  • Re-Auction: No

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Re: War #12 - Planned Changes (Work In Progress) (Discussion) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=66382.msg1281301#msg1281301
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2018, 06:30:55 PM »
Feedback time.

1:All is close to very good.
2:The auction should have cost raise after the first day.
3:The raises should be high. I've been in wars where the auction has taken over a month. Aim to have it done in 1 week.A long auction makes people less motivated.
4:And most important of all, make the amount you can spend on the the auction to be 1/3 of the total coins/cards/points you have. This is necessary, important, crucial, vital and essential. Seriously! I know what I'm talking about I've been a general practically 4.5 times.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 07:56:21 PM by Blacksmith »
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Re: War #12 - Planned Changes (Work In Progress) (Discussion) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=66382.msg1281308#msg1281308
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2018, 12:42:16 AM »
[snip]
- I don't mind LT being a soldier role, but Upgrade role shouldn't go. Some elements need upgrades more than others, and 5 matches is already a huge nerf to teams who rely more on upgrades, have it so people can go 15 / 8(boost) / 8(boost) / 8(boost) / 8(boost) if they want to, but people should also be able to go 15 / 12 / 10 / 8(boost) / 8(boost) if they want to. [snip]
I agree with this, and I also want to propose the alternative of increasing the default upgrades a Soldier can use. This increase could be any of the following:
  • +1 of any card
  • +2 of any card
  • The two above, but swapped to in-element
  • +1 of any, +1 in element (In element increase for both Generals and Soldiers)

EDIT: Wait, this is already being discussed, isn't it.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 12:54:19 AM by InsignificantWeeaboo »
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Offline shockcannon

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Re: War #12 - Planned Changes (Work In Progress) (Discussion) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=66382.msg1281309#msg1281309
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2018, 02:28:35 AM »
Can you have an unlimited # of relics in your vault then since it appears to be free?
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Re: War #12 - Planned Changes (Work In Progress) (Discussion) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=66382.msg1281318#msg1281318
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2018, 09:14:22 PM »
Why the hell do we still have market prices? They have not worked well, and all people do is complain about it every war.


Regarding sofree, jacking up the price last war did not fix the issue that SoFree is essentially unbeatable for aether given the elemental restrictions of war. Options to fix include:
1. ban sofree - arguably unfair to team air
2. limit sofree (max 3-4 copies per deck) - probably the most fair option, while keeping it functional
3. change min in-element cards to 30-40% - not sure how this one would work out, could ruin the whole foundation of war
4. ban all shards - been my preference for several wars now

**It also may not be a bad idea to alternate allowing shards to every other war kind of like alternating upgraded tourneys.


For the auction, Torb and I talked a lot last war and I think a draft would be the most fair option. The auction has always had issues, and it's time to scrap it. For a draft approach, each general has a max amount of cards/coins/whatever to bid with (kind of like recent auctions). Each general makes 2-4 bids (depending on # of teammates to draft based on amount of applications). Each bid determines where the general gets to pick each teammate in the draft order. For example, Generals can make 1 giant bid and 3 small bids (getting 1 top player), 2 big bids and 2 small (getting 2 decent/good players but not a top player), or bid 4 small (saving up for cards and getting cheap teammates). Once all bids are placed, a draft order is determined (If there are ties on bids, preference goes to lower ranked team last war). Generals also submit a rank order of all players with applications (this can be either at the same time or after bids are placed). The warmasters then run through the draft order and get each team's top available player.

**This is by far the most equitable and time-efficient manner of determining teams. It fulfills goals of previous auctions of giving generals options on how to spend their cards in the draft (get top players or have large vault), while eliminating loop holes related to ninja-bidding and incidentally screwing generals over with nuanced rules. It also gives every team the opportunity to get any player they want if they bid high enough, instead of weaker teams not being chosen in the setting of multiple maxbids.

An alternative option would be to just have a snaking draft (like most fantasy sport drafts) where draft order is based either on result from previous season or some sort of bidding. I think this option could work well if we get rid of the market and all teams start with same amount of cards. But i'm sure many may not like that option.


Lastly, get rid of the sideboard role. I think it's ok as an EC, but not a role to use every round. In general, I've been a supporter of removing roles from war, but i think i'm in the minority on that one.


As a whole, war is complex and complicated enough. As a former WM, simplifying war as much as possible makes everything run SOOOO much smoother and makes it more enjoyable for everyone.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 09:27:40 PM by deuce22 »

 

blarg: