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Offline hainkarga

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Re: War #11 - Round 11 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=65586.msg1273125#msg1273125
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2018, 06:27:54 pm »
I have no idea how zawadx and Afda are asspulling those conclusions, numbers and random percentages. Below are all the possible outcomes. I have excluded the cases in which Left does not cancel a first game loss since it doesn't make any sense. Strikethrough games are canceled by either side. Gray cells are the games in which Right would have won the whole game if there was no EC.

Now here is the important part:
There are 3 cases where Right stole a game which Left normally would win if there was no EC.
There are 6 cases where Left stole a game in which Right would normally win if there was no EC


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Offline kaempfer13

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Re: War #11 - Round 11 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=65586.msg1273126#msg1273126
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2018, 06:29:05 pm »
Oh, Initiator can deny defender's effect, if it turns a 3-2 into 3-1

Edit: hain, note that some of those paths are a game longer and half as likely
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 06:32:21 pm by kaempfer13 »
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Offline hainkarga

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Re: War #11 - Round 11 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=65586.msg1273127#msg1273127
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2018, 06:38:30 pm »
If the first game is won by Right side, Right loses all advantages. Right can at best revert the game to a state as if there is no EC. There is no case in which Right milks the EC. Left always benefits more.
If the first game is won by Left side, Right can benefit only when it is 3-2 by resetting the game.
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Re: War #11 - Round 11 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=65586.msg1273129#msg1273129
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2018, 07:23:52 pm »
When in doubt just run some simulations.

Program in R:
winner<- function(re=1000){
left<-0
right<-0
for (i in 1:re){
l<-0
r<-0
ini<-TRUE
def<-TRUE
while (l<3 && r<3){
if(round(runif(1),0)) {l=l+1} else r=r+1
if (l==0 && r==1 && ini==TRUE){ini=F
r=0}
if (l==3 && r==2 && def==TRUE){def=F
l=2}
}
if (l==3) left=left+1 else right=right+1
}
print(c(left,right))
}

Results:
> winner()
[1] 526 474
> winner(22222)
[1] 11110 11112
> winner(22222)
[1] 11118 11104
> winner(22222)
[1] 11209 11013
> winner(22222)
[1] 10938 11284
> winner(2222222)
[1] 1110507 1111715
> winner(2222222)
[1] 1111941 1110281

as I expected there is no significant difference between the 2 sides.
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Offline andretimpa

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Re: War #11 - Round 11 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=65586.msg1273130#msg1273130
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2018, 07:53:00 pm »
Why run simulations if you can calculate?  :P

Spoiler for Python code:
Code: [Select]
import sympy
import numpy as np
import matplotlib.pyplot as plt

#probability of L winning
p = sympy.symbols("p")

#checks if L wins without EC (bo5)
def Lwins_noEC(x):
    return x[:5].count("L") >= 3

#checks if L wins the bo7
def Lwins_bo7(x):
    return x.count("L") >= 4

#checks if L wins with EC
def Lwins_EC(x):
    if x[0] == "R":
        x = x[1:]
    if x[:4].count("L") == 2 and x[4] == "L":
        x = x[:4] + x[5]
    return x[:5].count("L") >= 3

#probability of an outcome consisting of 7 games
def prob(x):
    n = x.count("L")
    return (p**n*(1-p)**(7-n)).expand()

#build all 128 possible outcomes of 7 games
res = "LR"
games = ["".join([g1, g2, g3, g4, g5, g6, g7]) for g1 in res for g2 in res for g3 in res for g4 in res for g5 in res for g6 in res for g7 in res]

#add up the probabilities
prob_L_noEC = sum([prob(x) for x in games if Lwins_noEC(x)])  #this gives 6*p**5 - 15*p**4 + 10*p**3
prob_L_EC   = sum([prob(x) for x in games if Lwins_EC(x)])    #this gives -6*p**7 + 21*p**6 - 21*p**5 + 7*p**3
prob_bo7    = sum([prob(x) for x in games if Lwins_bo7(x)])   #this gives -20*p**7 + 70*p**6 - 84*p**5 + 35*p**4

no_EC   = sympy.lambdify(p, prob_L_noEC)
with_EC = sympy.lambdify(p, prob_L_EC)
bo7     = sympy.lambdify(p, prob_bo7)
x = np.linspace(0, 1, num = 200)

ax1, = plt.plot(x, no_EC(x), "-r")
ax2, = plt.plot(x, with_EC(x), "-k")
ax3, = plt.plot(x, bo7(x), "-b")
plt.legend((ax1, ax2, ax3), ("Without EC", "With EC", "Traditional bo7"), loc = 2)
plt.xlabel("Probability of winning one game")
plt.ylabel("Probability of winning the whole match")

If the initiator has a deck that wins with probability p, they win the whole match with probability, Prob(p) = 7p^3 - 21p^5 + 21p^6 - 6p^7.

Since Prob(p) = 1 - Prob(1-p), the chances are the same if the initiator and defender switch places but keep the same decks, so it's all down to the decks.

In fact this EC's effect reduces a bit the overall RNG, but not as much as a full blown Bo7 (even though it's nearly as much work)

Spoiler for Graphic comparing no EC, EC and Bo7:



TL;DR EC is fair
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 07:58:44 pm by andretimpa »
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Offline hainkarga

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Re: War #11 - Round 11 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=65586.msg1273131#msg1273131
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2018, 09:13:21 pm »
TL;DR EC is fair

You can't pull fairness out of probabilities like that. The EC literally takes away a win from either of the players depending on the situation. What you are comparing is the possible usefulness of the EC for left vs right. You should be asking if it is fair to take away a win or not. On top of that, the conditions of the effect are totally random (first game win in case of 50% winrate) and the choice is completely static (player always chooses to reset). That is pretty boring if you ask me.
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Re: War #11 - Round 11 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=65586.msg1273133#msg1273133
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2018, 10:34:56 pm »
TL;DR EC is fair

You can't pull fairness out of probabilities like that. The EC literally takes away a win from either of the players depending on the situation. What you are comparing is the possible usefulness of the EC for left vs right. You should be asking if it is fair to take away a win or not. On top of that, the conditions of the effect are totally random (first game win in case of 50% winrate) and the choice is completely static (player always chooses to reset). That is pretty boring if you ask me.

Suppose the EC was "each player gets to void one game during the match"
  • You are still taking a win from each player
  • The condition for taking the win is random (since it depends on the game results)

Would that be less fair / more boring than a straight bo5? Because this modified EC would just be the same as "matches are bo7".
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Offline worldwideweb3

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Re: War #11 - Round 11 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=65586.msg1273137#msg1273137
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2018, 02:05:01 am »
Idk why you lot are doing so much math. Each team has 2 lefts and 2 rights, so its fair :sillyspin: :P
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Offline ZawadxTopic starter

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Re: War #11 - Round 11 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=65586.msg1273138#msg1273138
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2018, 06:18:05 am »
TL;DR EC is fair

You can't pull fairness out of probabilities like that. The EC literally takes away a win from either of the players depending on the situation. What you are comparing is the possible usefulness of the EC for left vs right. You should be asking if it is fair to take away a win or not. On top of that, the conditions of the effect are totally random (first game win in case of 50% winrate) and the choice is completely static (player always chooses to reset). That is pretty boring if you ask me.

Except... that's exactly how we determine fairness. By judging if switching the roles would affect the probability of the outcome.
Also in your calcs the ones where left wins are all 6 games, while those that right wins are all 7 games. their probabilities exactly cancel each other out (if 50-50) or work irrespective of role flipping.
And yeah the EC is boring. But I think a few boring ones are called for.
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Re: War #11 - Round 11 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=65586.msg1273139#msg1273139
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2018, 07:56:35 am »
ah the old r11 bo7

When was this last used? I'm getting old and senile.
Don't really think it was used, but you should've made it best of 11.
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Re: War #11 - Round 11 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=65586.msg1273200#msg1273200
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2018, 02:05:01 am »
(snip)

This method assumes that all of those probabilities are equal. However, they are not. Here they are with probabilities included:




Thus all the EC does is favor the team with the higher winrate because of the extra match:



It's a balanced EC. Good luck, everyone.

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Re: War #11 - Round 11 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=65586.msg1273211#msg1273211
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2018, 04:56:18 pm »
I would like to congratulate :life for coming this far this woar! :D
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anything
blarg: