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Offline Vangelios

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Re: War #10 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62476.msg1253181#msg1253181
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2016, 12:17:13 am »
Just a thought. I've not thought through any of the other ramifications of it at all.

What if we increased vault size - but you're team is eliminated when you can no longer field five decks?

I'm actually much, much more in favour of this idea
really? what are 5 decks? for example in current format 1 NT and 29 pillars is a deck and pillars are free...
also I can do 3 dead decks and 2 decents decks...
 if there are a minimum of cards to go out make more sense in all cases, and be eliminated with a lot of cards deviates the war concept.
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Offline Aves

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Re: War #10 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62476.msg1253182#msg1253182
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2016, 12:24:17 am »
Just a thought. I've not thought through any of the other ramifications of it at all.

What if we increased vault size - but you're team is eliminated when you can no longer field five decks?

I'm actually much, much more in favour of this idea
really? what are 5 decks? for example in current format 1 NT and 29 pillars is a deck and pillars are free...
also I can do 3 dead decks and 2 decents decks...
 if there are a minimum of cards to go out make more sense in all cases, and be eliminated with a lot of cards deviates the war concept.
Currently, if you have 125 cards in vault, you play 5 matches. That is the most likely what is meant, though of course the number can be adjusted.
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Offline Vangelios

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Re: War #10 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62476.msg1253183#msg1253183
« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2016, 12:28:05 am »
Just a thought. I've not thought through any of the other ramifications of it at all.

What if we increased vault size - but you're team is eliminated when you can no longer field five decks?

I'm actually much, much more in favour of this idea
really? what are 5 decks? for example in current format 1 NT and 29 pillars is a deck and pillars are free...
also I can do 3 dead decks and 2 decents decks...
 if there are a minimum of cards to go out make more sense in all cases, and be eliminated with a lot of cards deviates the war concept.
Currently, if you have 125 cards in vault, you play 5 matches. That is the most likely what is meant, though of course the number can be adjusted.
ok thank you, is more easy understand like that, by unique number of vault size
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Re: War #10 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62476.msg1253228#msg1253228
« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2016, 06:05:29 pm »
Just a thought. I've not thought through any of the other ramifications of it at all.

What if we increased vault size - but you're team is eliminated when you can no longer field five decks?

I'm actually much, much more in favour of this idea
This could work yes... but it all depends on how much more cards we give to make it faster.  On the other hand, it 100% solves the handicap side of things where the leading team needs to fight 5 matches while the others only fight 2-3.  Maybe we could decrease the number of cards to be able to fight 5 matches to 100 as well?

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Re: War #10 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62476.msg1253266#msg1253266
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2016, 01:07:30 pm »
yeah, just make 100 the death point instead of 50
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Offline Blacksmith

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Re: War #10 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62476.msg1265227#msg1265227
« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2017, 10:03:33 am »
I really should have made this earlier.

1: One of the problems with war is that Op cards are overused while Up cards are underused. This has been partly solved by the market system. However people are still allowed to salvage the strong cards just as much as the cheap ones. And people never discards the strong cards. And after a few rounds the impact of the market is reduced and the number of cards like nova has increased. This reduces the variety of decks in war and we only see weird decks when a team is about to get kicked out.
So the question is how do we change the salvage/discard system so it dosen't lead to teams always stealing/keeping the best cards?

I have a few suggestions:
  • Let each salvage be worth a set number like 500 coins and keep the market. Let the market costs apply when salvaging as well. Same when discarding. Let each discard be worth -1500 coins and use the market prices when people choose cards.
    -This is probably the most fair way, however the trickiest to add and with extra errors. Even if the spreadsheet will help you see errors. It also adds more strategy to war.

  • Another idea is basically a simplification of the first idea. Instead of using the exakt market values you can have cards in the 30-60 range be worth 1 card, cards in the 60-100 range be worth 2 cards and cards 100+ be worth 3 cards. If total salvage is each win 9 teams can salvage either 3novas or 9 antlions. Same with discard. Each team have to discard 30 cards, throwing away 6 novas is worth 18 cards, throwing away 6 ants is only worth 6.
    - This system is less tricky and still adds more strategy to the game.
  • Another idea is to only allow people to salvage/discard a certain number of the same card. So a maximum of 3 of the same card would reduce people's chances to take only goodies.

  • Let your opponent lock a number of cards, lets say 6. Then their opponent can't salvage/ must discard the chosen cards. This has to be announced one day after the battle round ends.
    - This is the evil way to do it and adds more strategy into the game. It could also be made a battle trait among with Lt, Salvager etc.

  • Only allow teams to salvage the cards that the other team choosed to discard. Then discarsion would have to be announced 1 day after battle. Or the other way around. A loser can't keep the cards the other team salvaged.
    - This way the amount of strong cards only decrease the further war goes. To balance this I guess we will have to change balance discard a bit. Or make it an battle trait.

  • The last way to solve this is to reduce the number of cards you're allowed to have of the same card. We could put max amount of creatures at 24 but reduces spells to 20, reduce permanents to 12 and reduce shards to 9.
    - This is something I definitely think should be added. It makes sense that teams are allowed to have 24 of their important attackers, but not so much sense to be allowed to have 24 fractals. Simply since creatures are used more and in more decks than permanents and spells.

  • Please post your own ideas!
By doing any of these ideas we will add more strategy to war, more versatility, reduce the impact of the strong teams super decks in war.



2: Another problem in war is that the auction costs are way to low. Last war auction cost was 2K max for the whole team and total spendings 26K? This has made the auction more a strategy contest ( which I use to do very well in ) than an actual auction. A player that manage to make you win one more game gives you a gain of 26 cards ( you don't have to discard 20 cards + 6 card salvage ), each card is worth a minimum of 30 coins which means that is a minimum gain of 780 coins. A really good player will make you win a lot more than just one game. That is way it's silly to have the maximum cost for auction being a maximum of 2K for all players. The cost of auction should be one third of the total income imo. That would add strategy and make it an actual difference between teams that go for a cheap vs expensive team.

3: If you want to make the auction process shorter. Have players that hasn't received a new bid in 24-48 hours being locked in on their team. That way people can't wait weeks before bidding. And also add costs increment for each day that passes. Day one free, day two minimum bid/raise 100, day two minimum raise/bid 200 etc etc.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 10:16:50 am by Blacksmith »
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Re: War #10 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62476.msg1265232#msg1265232
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2017, 10:19:54 am »
Quote
The last way to solve this is to reduce the number of cards you're allowed to have of the same card. We could put max amount of creatures at 24 but reduces spells to 20, reduce permanents to 12 and reduce shards to 9.
- This is something I definitely think should be added. It makes sense that teams are allowed to have 24 of their important attackers, but not so much sense to be allowed to have 24 fractals. Simply since creatures are used more and in more decks than permanents and spells.

1) I only agree with this from the first list. The rest are way too complicated and make only for further delays/confusion and it also sounds like it would ruin some fun.

2) I think auction was fine. I still felt challenged when building the vault and had to drop a couple of deck ideas.

3) Pretty sure something like that was in place last war as well.

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Re: War #10 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62476.msg1265234#msg1265234
« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2017, 10:45:03 am »
Some elements rely more on perm and spells than others so it will harm those elements a lot more (RIP adrena RIP sanc miracle RIP poor elements)

I don't think there's an issue with good cards being used, tbh. Every team has good cards that can beat other decks if they make their vault well. Do people really wanna see subpar decks containing salvagers and vultures And other useless stuff? These cards are good only in few decks so it makes sense that less of them are used.
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Offline Blacksmith

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Re: War #10 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62476.msg1265289#msg1265289
« Reply #68 on: June 12, 2017, 01:27:43 pm »
Quote
The last way to solve this is to reduce the number of cards you're allowed to have of the same card. We could put max amount of creatures at 24 but reduces spells to 20, reduce permanents to 12 and reduce shards to 9.
- This is something I definitely think should be added. It makes sense that teams are allowed to have 24 of their important attackers, but not so much sense to be allowed to have 24 fractals. Simply since creatures are used more and in more decks than permanents and spells.

1) I only agree with this from the first list. The rest are way too complicated and make only for further delays/confusion and it also sounds like it would ruin some fun.
I agree some of them are confusing. Some ideas was posted for inspiration as well. I personally believe that the current salvage system ruins some fun. We had it for as many wars as I can remember and it makes war a bit repetitive. It also makes sense to have some kind restriktion that also adds more creativity and strategy to the salvage/discard phase. After all we need each war to have some fresh rules to make it fun.

2) I think auction was fine. I still felt challenged when building the vault and had to drop a couple of deck ideas.
The number of cards you can spend when building the vault was fine. However the auction did not fill it purpose. It was more about strategy than who's willing to pay the most. A big part of that was because the WO's wanted to reduce the time for auction by a lot which lead to strange rules which made it a strategy contest.

3) Pretty sure something like that was in place last war as well. Yeah but it still needs some work.

Some elements rely more on perm and spells than others so it will harm those elements a lot more (RIP adrena RIP sanc miracle RIP poor elements)
That is true. But also rip fractal feast, rip sofree feast, rip nova feast, rip strong elements.
I don't think there's an issue with good cards being used, tbh. Every team has good cards that can beat other decks if they make their vault well. Do people really wanna see subpar decks containing salvagers and vultures And other useless stuff? Actually, yes that's exactly what we want. Big parts of the war meta has been the same since the beginning. I think it's about time the strong cards are less used and more creativity is added to war. These cards are good only in few decks so it makes sense that less of them are used. Right. But there's plenty of semi good decks that aren't used because everyone uses the same old good decks that we've seen in large number forever.


Bottom line a chance doesn't have to be either better or worse as a long as it's creating a difference. I rather play 3 different wars with different rules than 3 wars with the exakt same rules. We need to try new things to make it fresh. The alterations dosen't need to be that big either.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 01:43:46 pm by Blacksmith »
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Re: War #10 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62476.msg1265290#msg1265290
« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2017, 01:34:11 pm »
Master's Dojo is supposed to have its contents kept secret. Dammit Blacksmith.

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Re: War #10 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62476.msg1265291#msg1265291
« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2017, 02:20:56 pm »
Can we finally share information with other teams? I thought having alliances was a big thing in Wars??

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Re: War #10 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62476.msg1265292#msg1265292
« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2017, 03:22:45 pm »
Can we finally share information with other teams? I thought having alliances was a big thing in Wars??
I'm up for alliances, that would certainly add a lot of strategy to war. It's definitely worth a shot at least one war.
We might have to discuss some restriktions though. Like from when is it allowed to start an alliance, with how many teams, what information will be allowed to be shared, for how long can an alliance last, are they secret or do they have to be declared, does any special rules apply in an alliance like fewer upps, other battle traits, card restriktion etc, how many alliances are you allowed to have in one war.

I think alliances definitely would make war more of a mindgame and increase the chance of weak elements to become competitive.
Purple Hillbilly reporting, ready for teamwork and shiny times. 

 

blarg: